What is pulling America Apart?

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, you are right. Not all the framers were of the same mind. I guess I meant the quote to suggest that as America has become less Christian it is losing its salt so to speak. Hopefully a trend that will reverse.

Obviously as a non-believer myself, I can't speak to the faith aspect of that. I can only speak to general observations that we can make with regards to data and with regards to trends we've seen in other countries.

Countries and regions that seem to have an easier time keeping religious ideals within public life (not from a legal sense, just in terms of culture) are the ones where there's less religious diversity within the parent religion, as the religious belief is going to have fewer sources of criticism.

So, in the US, while Christianity is the main religion, there's a plethora of denominations of Christianity (even within small regions), each with some very different ideas, and many of which having no shortage of criticisms about all the other ones. Point of reference, I don't live in a big city...it's in the burbs. With a 10 minute drive I could be to 8 different denominations of Christian churches...extend that to 25 mins and we can add in a Jehovah's Witness Hall and a Sikh temple.

Juxtapose that against places Ireland and Mexico, where depending on which area you're in, it could be not only 90%+ Christian, but one specific form of Christianity in the form of Catholicism.

Just practically speaking, who's more likely to stick with their childhood religion? The person who's only had their religious upbringing challenged by one viewpoint (atheism), or the person who's had their religious upbringing challenged from 12 different viewpoints (atheism + 11 or so other denominations)?

As the distinct sources of criticism increase, so do the chances that one of those forms or criticism will eventually resonate with the person.


The other indirectly related effect is that the more fractured the denomination make-up is, the more likely people are to be soured on each and every one of them reducing the chances that they'll make the choice to jump to one of the other ones.

Personally speaking my family was split. My mom's side was Southern Baptist, my Dad's side was Catholic...and a few of the extended family was Lutheran.
(we were raised Southern Baptist). I didn't hear any atheistic criticism of any of those 3 until I was well into my teens. All of the critiques I had heard were from other religious viewpoints.

So by the time I was 16, I had heard negative things about all 3 coming from other religious sources. So when I decided I didn't want to go to the Baptist church anymore, Catholicism and Lutheranism didn't exactly sound appealing either as I had heard "all the that was wrong with them" growing up.

 

[Richard T]

Obviously as a non-believer myself, I can't speak to the faith aspect of that. I can only speak to general observations that we can make with regards to data and with regards to trends we've seen in other countries.

Countries and regions that seem to have an easier time keeping religious ideals within public life (not from a legal sense, just in terms of culture) are the ones where there's less religious diversity within the parent religion, as the religious belief is going to have fewer sources of criticism.

So, in the US, while Christianity is the main religion, there's a plethora of denominations of Christianity (even within small regions), each with some very different ideas, and many of which having no shortage of criticisms about all the other ones. Point of reference, I don't live in a big city...it's in the burbs. With a 10 minute drive I could be to 8 different denominations of Christian churches...extend that to 25 mins and we can add in a Jehovah's Witness Hall and a Sikh temple.

Juxtapose that against places Ireland and Mexico, where depending on which area you're in, it could be not only 90%+ Christian, but one specific form of Christianity in the form of Catholicism.

Just practically speaking, who's more likely to stick with their childhood religion? The person who's only had their religious upbringing challenged by one viewpoint (atheism), or the person who's had their religious upbringing challenged from 12 different viewpoints (atheism + 11 or so other denominations)?

As the distinct sources of criticism increase, so do the chances that one of those forms or criticism will eventually resonate with the person.


The other indirectly related effect is that the more fractured the denomination make-up is, the more likely people are to be soured on each and every one of them reducing the chances that they'll make the choice to jump to one of the other ones.

Personally speaking my family was split. My mom's side was Southern Baptist, my Dad's side was Catholic...and a few of the extended family was Lutheran.
(we were raised Southern Baptist). I didn't hear any atheistic criticism of any of those 3 until I was well into my teens. All of the critiques I had heard were from other religious viewpoints.

So by the time I was 16, I had heard negative things about all 3 coming from other religious sources. So when I decided I didn't want to go to the Baptist church anymore, Catholicism and Lutheranism didn't exactly sound appealing either as I had heard "all the that was wrong with them" growing up.

Yes, plenty to choose from and I do think that some fragmentation or partisanship in politics stems from differences in Christianity. Mostly though it is progressives versus more conservative Christians each refusing to compromise and even trying to force actions on others.

Sorry to hear your faith experiences were lacking. I too left my parents church as it seemed quite dead. I looked for something more tangible and found it later. I suppose all churches try to help to an extent but I like the ones that really seem genuine and reach out to those that are the most needy in one way or another. I'm hoping in the future that we really will have sort of a new reformation that will reduce all the church nonsense and really have a church

Obviously as a non-believer myself, I can't speak to the faith aspect of that. I can only speak to general observations that we can make with regards to data and with regards to trends we've seen in other countries.

Countries and regions that seem to have an easier time keeping religious ideals within public life (not from a legal sense, just in terms of culture) are the ones where there's less religious diversity within the parent religion, as the religious belief is going to have fewer sources of criticism.

So, in the US, while Christianity is the main religion, there's a plethora of denominations of Christianity (even within small regions), each with some very different ideas, and many of which having no shortage of criticisms about all the other ones. Point of reference, I don't live in a big city...it's in the burbs. With a 10 minute drive I could be to 8 different denominations of Christian churches...extend that to 25 mins and we can add in a Jehovah's Witness Hall and a Sikh temple.

Juxtapose that against places Ireland and Mexico, where depending on which area you're in, it could be not only 90%+ Christian, but one specific form of Christianity in the form of Catholicism.

Just practically speaking, who's more likely to stick with their childhood religion? The person who's only had their religious upbringing challenged by one viewpoint (atheism), or the person who's had their religious upbringing challenged from 12 different viewpoints (atheism + 11 or so other denominations)?

As the distinct sources of criticism increase, so do the chances that one of those forms or criticism will eventually resonate with the person.


The other indirectly related effect is that the more fractured the denomination make-up is, the more likely people are to be soured on each and every one of them reducing the chances that they'll make the choice to jump to one of the other ones.

Personally speaking my family was split. My mom's side was Southern Baptist, my Dad's side was Catholic...and a few of the extended family was Lutheran.
(we were raised Southern Baptist). I didn't hear any atheistic criticism of any of those 3 until I was well into my teens. All of the critiques I had heard were from other religious viewpoints.

So by the time I was 16, I had heard negative things about all 3 coming from other religious sources. So when I decided I didn't want to go to the Baptist church anymore, Catholicism and Lutheranism didn't exactly sound appealing either as I had heard "all the that was wrong with them" growing up.

Yes, plenty to choose from and I do think that some fragmentation or partisanship in politics stems from differences in Christianity. Mostly though it is progressives versus more conservative Christians each refusing to compromise and even trying to force actions on others.

Sorry to hear your faith experiences were lacking. I too left my parents church as it seemed quite dead. I looked for something more tangible and found it later. I suppose all churches try to help to an extent but I like the ones that really seem genuine and reach out to those that are the most needy in one way or another. I'm hoping in the future that we really will have sort of a new reformation that will reduce all the church nonsense and really have churches where Christ is evident.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

America isn't a great model of a functional, healthy society. It's not even a good one. Merely a middling one. Among developed nations, the US has some of the lowest indicators in terms of human flourishing and wellbeing. We have some of the most physically unhealthy people of any western nation, and also some of the worst mental health as well. We have high rates of violence, and high income inequality, as compared to other wealthy nations. Part of the problem is that American refuse to accept that. It's only when you can look at yourself and see your flaws that you can do something about them. But instead, we have a political system full of toxic nostalgia and grifters, and our society is dominated by a spiritually and morally bankrupt culture based on greed and self-interest, with shallow moralisms and wishful thinking passing for spirituality and religion.

Shhhh, you are trying to make us feel guilty? We can't talk about these things. We can't own them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Shhhh, you are trying to make us feel guilty? We can't talk about these things. We can't own them.

And that goes back to that shallow spirituality and moralism I was talking about.

America does have some positive aspects, such as being a dynamic society historically, albe to reinvent itself. However, the last thirty years have seen a dearth of political and social imagination that is really quite unprecedented in our history. In short, it's not hard to conclude we are in a nation in decline.

 

[Belk]

I want to say plate tectonics but that is actually pushing us together.

 

[timothyu]

However, the last thirty years have seen a dearth of political and social imagination that is really quite unprecedented in our history. In short, it's not hard to conclude we are in a nation in decline.

Since the push for rights over responsibility

 

[Pommer]

Since the push for rights over responsibility

When people “knew their place”?

 

[timothyu]

When people “knew their place”?

Acted responsibly rather than pursuing self interest at a cost to others and the civility that builds civilizations rather than just tribes. Man does evil but is born with a natural tendency to know good, so most even when doing evil will try to at least make the appearance of doing good, without changing the definition. However society always gets to a point when these become so full of themselves they no longer see the need to put on an act and the true self, one of extreme self interest, comes out

 

[stevil]

I stopped myself from posting this opinion in another thread because I'm curious about what Americans in America think is pulling America apart.

I am 1000% convinced that the left and the right do NOT agree on what that is. As I'm outside of it, I have my own opinions on both groups. But from SPECIFICALLY where you sit, what do you think is causing the slow melting of America's standing.

I'm not from USA, so this is an outsider's opinion

• Tribalism
• Demonising of the opposition
• Sensationalism
• Fearmongering
• 24x7 News media
• Partisan media channels/outlets
• Opinion shows (entertainers) pretending to be journalists
• Misinformation on the internet
• Inability for people to decipher truth from lies
• Increasing lack of grace and integrity from politicians
• Politicians and certain media and personalities looking to erode peoples' confidence in elections, justice system, school system, science, DOJ, FBI, CIA etc

When people are paranoid about the system and have lost all trust, all you are left with is fear, anger and violence.

 

[Margaret3110]

I'm not from USA, so this is an outsider's opinion

• Tribalism
• Demonising of the opposition
• Sensationalism
• Fearmongering
• 24x7 News media
• Partisan media channels/outlets
• Opinion shows (entertainers) pretending to be journalists
• Misinformation on the internet
• Inability for people to decipher truth from lies
• Increasing lack of grace and integrity from politicians
• Politicians and certain media and personalities looking to erode peoples' confidence in elections, justice system, school system, science, DOJ, FBI, CIA etc

When people are paranoid about the system and have lost all trust, all you are left with is fear, anger and violence.

I'm from the USA and would agree.

 

[rambot]

When people “knew their place”?

I would have taken it to mean when hyperindividualism supplanted any concern for the community (ie...rights over responsibility)

 

[Ana the Ist]

 

[Laodicean60]

America has been inculcated with the ‘American Dream’ that basically encourages selfishness: ‘the screw you I got mine’ mentality.

All the while feeding itself the idea that as long as they can look down on other people they are doing fine (even though they often have to have side hustles just to survive).

An American’s greatest enemy/fear/threat is another American so they cleave to those like them and hate and fear those unlike them.

And the people in the ruling classes are insulated from most of it by the vast wealth and power the American Dream has allowed them to syphon out of the economy.

I don't see it your way. I'm a boomer and my parents told me that if I worked hard I could achieve the American dream and I'm living it. I'm not rich but I have more than enough, thank God. I personally feel once you acquire a lot of wealth or power it corrupts like Bill Gates (scary) and just look at our government, the need for more power not to mention the WEF. Hollywood may have had a hand glorifying greed in a Wall Street movie in the 80s, but ultimately it's if you have God in your heart that you are willing to step on others.
I only fear God and my wife. I think our prejudices come from ignorance.
No, it's not the American dream it's greed. It's the Machiavelli and Malthusian types that are afraid us little people are going to use up all their stuff. The ruling class is playing King of the Hill to be the first trillionaire and I believe the winner will be the antichrist in the near future. Once he hogs up all the money he'll have ultimate control and power. Look at us and China fighting to be #1. If you look at history it's been like this since day 1.
Too many people without God in their hearts. Peace

 

[Laodicean60]

Yep - we live in a world where "truth" has become subjective. Feelings and opinions are treated as being of equal weight to facts and data, which makes it nearly impossible to hold a rational conversation with someone who disagrees with you.

This ties into a lot of the other posts made so far:

- the issues in the OP have become so divisive because, in a post-truth world, both sides believe themselves to be absolutely correct because they feel that they are
- the internet facilitates it, with echo chambers reinforcing the idea that one's feelings are factual and the spread of (mis)information being easier and faster than ever
- it's tied into selfishness; to believe that your opinions hold more weight than anyone else's is the height of selfish behavior
- tolerance is no longer "good enough" because why should people tolerate something that they know is evil and wrong?

I agree 100% about truth. I came to realize that it was my ignorance to see the truth caused by tribalism. Twenty-five years ago somehow I got boxed into my team versus your team mentality and naturally taught my millennials the same.

When Covid hit and they feared me into taking the vaccine I started looking for alternatives to increase my natural immunity on Youtube. I was shocked to find that we can reverse most diseases that killing everyone today. Food corporations are killing us slowly and the health industrial complex wants to keep it that way. It's as simple as exercise and eating whole foods. I am currently reversing type 2 diabetes. That's when I asked myself where is the FDA? Then I started to distrust the government.

In 2022 when I noticed my retirement money disappearing I started watching financial videos and they were talking about the severity of our debt. I didn't realize how severe it was and unfortunately, neither does our politicians. I was naive to think they knew what they were doing by setting fiscal policy. My head popped out of my butt when I heard the fund manager say that the Saddam war was over the petrol dollar. That also started ISIS which lasted years. I think about the kids that were killed and maimed since then. I realized my party had let me down and here we are twenty years later with Trillions in debt! Both parties are to blame but my tribalism and ignorance only saw half the picture.
We don't know how unfair the petrol dollar system is to developing countries that is why countries have been running away from the dollar for years as (BRICS) nations even Saudi Arabia.
I've been hearing Republicans run on the debt for the last 15 years and has anything been done? We/ve played the blame game for way too long and because of that, I see the book of Revelation unfolding before my very eyes. Peace

 

[Larniavc]

I don't see it your way. I'm a boomer and my parents told me that if I worked hard I could achieve the American dream and I'm living it.

You must understand that boomers grew up in a simpler, cheaper world. In that time people could work hard and achieve that dream.

Today it is much harder; the world is a more complex place, wealth was far more evenly distributed in that time frame.

The reason our society is like the way it is is because of the behaviour of Boomers.

 

[Larniavc]

It's the Machiavelli and Malthusian types that are afraid us little people are going to use up all their stuff.

This is where we do agree.

 

[RDKirk]

You must understand that boomers grew up in a simpler, cheaper world. In that time people could work hard and achieve that dream.

Today it is much harder; the world is a more complex place, wealth was far more evenly distributed in that time frame.

The reason our society is like the way it is is because of the behaviour of Boomers.

We Boomers were the inheritors of the post-World War II situation that left the US with global economic supremacy. However, nobody seemed to realize that situation was inevitably temporary and had, in fact, ended by the beginning of the 1970s. By that time, Europe and Japan had recovered enough from the war to satisfy their own manufacturing needs and even begin exporting. I distinctly remember the first Japanese cars appearing on the US market...such oddities! We called them "rice-burners."

People today don't think about how much desperate economic tap-dancing Nixon did to keep the economy from collapsing. Anyone remember Nixon's nationwide wage and price freeze? Can you imagine a president taking such a drastic action today? Or Nixon fully removing US currency from the gold standard and allowing it to float against world currency...but setting up the petro-doller with OPEC to hedge that bet?

Boomers were only just then entering the economic sphere, which was still being run by the WWII Generation. Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr...those were all WWII Generation. And notice that the WWII Generation isn't out of the picture even yet. Most of us Boomers were not aware that the US economy had already gone flat and we were eating our own feet. To be honest, the sin of Boomers is not that we set things up poorly, but that we merely continued the policies of the WWII Generation without realizing those policies were already obsolescent by the time we took the reigns. The sin of Boomers is that we didn't do anything...we just coasted.

 

[RDKirk]

The ruling class is playing King of the Hill to be the first trillionaire and I believe the winner will be the antichrist in the near future. Once he hogs up all the money he'll have ultimate control and power. Look at us and China fighting to be #1. If you look at history it's been like this since day 1.
Too many people without God in their hearts. Peace

 

[Laodicean60]

You must understand that boomers grew up in a simpler, cheaper world. In that time people could work hard and achieve that dream.

Today it is much harder; the world is a more complex place, wealth was far more evenly distributed in that time frame.

The reason our society is like the way it is is because of the behaviour of Boomers.

I could blame my parents for all the financial struggles at that time mainly inflation. When growing up we only had one TV in the house so we boomers didn't have the lifestyle of the rich and famous like it is today. My mom always told me to save money because of how my parents grew up. Now in my 60s, I wish I would have listened to her. I loved that credit card when it first came out because I never had cash in my wallet and it kept me broke until around 40. Now I'm telling my millennials the same. It's all about our spending habits that make it hard on us. When we shipped our jobs in the 90's to China that when cheap stuff came pouring in. Today I shake my head when my kids have to have the latest cell phones or want to stay in debt every 5 years for a newer car or get the latest HD TV and have a TV in every room.
Agreed today is more complex and yes wealth was shipped to China. I don't buy into the blame game because it's ultimately it's our spending habits and investment choices. I went through the same struggles I see my kids going through with their kids. Peace

 

[Laodicean60]

A footnote in history as was the British Empire before it and all before that. Next!

Agreed! If you're talking about empires we are headed in the same direction. Ray Dalio's Changing World Order shows what happens to countries who spend themselves into oblivion.