Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[Ephesians321]

The judgement that's never to be repeated is flooding the whole earth. It is an interesting connection to see that God says he will never again curse the ground, but we know he had cursed the ground upon the first entrance of sin (Gen. 3:17). That tells me he means something else. My understanding is that he will not add to curse the ground any more, as drowning all the earth adds to the curse.

So, in the same vein, as he would not destroy the whole world again as promised, this cannot mean that he has changed his mind about setting all things new after the final judgment at the end of all things. The promise as I understand it is he will never destroy the world till the time of the end. We see an allusion to this when Christ speaks of the wicked being taken but the humble remain (see Mt 24:40-42).

The end of all things already happened before the generation he spoke these words to passed away (A.D. 30-A.D. 70 = 40 years, a generation). This is the passage that many futurists get completely wrong, remember Noah's flood took away the wicked and the humble remained. That also happened in Jersusalem A.D. 70. Christ did away with temple and its cultus with Jewish lineages (particular the Levitical lineage), he avenged the blood of the prophets and saints after Israel filled the measure of her sins with disbelief, persecution, and apostacy. The Romans slew many but also scattered them throughout the Empire and many were sold as slaves. They were taken. Christ also raised us up on the last day but the Law and the Prophets had not been all fulfilled so the way into heaven had not been opened yet while the physical Temple and Mosaic age still stood awaiting fulfillment. Hebrews 9:7-8, 11-12, 14, 23-26, 28; Hebrews 8:13 (c.f. Leviticus 9:22-24). Once Christ fulfilled all of the Law and Prophets please note this includes all the prophecies found in Isaiah 61-66 then or approximate the spiritual Resurrection occurs 1 Thessalonian 4:16.

Leviticus 9:23 = Hebrews 9:28

Daniel 12:2, 6-7 = Hebrews 9:8, Matthew 5:17-18, Hebrews 8:13

John 6:39-40 (Daniel 12:2,6-7) = 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Daniel 12:2,6-7) = Matthew 16:27-28 (Daniel 12:2,6-7) = Matthew 24:34 (Daniel 12:2, 6-7)

Daniel 12:4,6-7 c.f. Revelation 22:10,12,20

 

[didactics]

Christ also raised us up on the last day but the Law and the Prophets had not been all fulfilled so the way into heaven had not been opened yet while the physical Temple and Mosaic age still stood awaiting fulfillment. Hebrews 9:7-8, 11-12, 14, 23-26, 28; Hebrews 8:13 (c.f. Leviticus 9:22-24).

I simply do not follow what you're saying. The way of heaven was made open or manifest in Christ's death. I say this because the penitent thief saw him that day. The church age began at Pentecost when the disciples were gathered in the upper room. The Mosaic age was still standing in a sense but it was not binding on the church. The Judaizers tried to hold them back, but that is why they were judged as a nation. The Mosaic age was put to in end in very dramatic fashion when Christ offered himself as a sacrifice and the centurion solder standing by was in awe (Mt 27:54). But if that wasn't enough, many of the jews were convicted when they saw all the things Christ predicted about the fall of the temple.

Christ also raised us up on the last day but the Law and the Prophets had not been all fulfilled

So what was it, were we raised up in a single day or not? I say the last days is not referring to a single day but it covers the entire period between Christ’s two advents. What happened in A.D. 70 foreshadowed what will happen on a global scale at his second advent. The last days may continue for thousands of years more. We have been living in the last days since Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Ephesians321]

I simply do not follow what you're saying. The way of heaven was made open or manifest in Christ's death. I say this because the penitent thief saw him that day. The church age began at Pentecost when the disciples were gathered in the upper room. The Mosaic age was still standing in a sense but it was not binding on the church. The Judaizers tried to hold them back, but that is why they were judged as a nation. The Mosaic age was put to in end in very dramatic fashion when Christ offered himself as a sacrifice and the centurion solder standing by was in awe (Mt 27:54). But if that wasn't enough, many of the jews were convicted when they saw all the things Christ predicted about the fall of the temple.

So what was it, were we raised up in a single day or not? I say the last days is not referring to a single day but it covers the entire period between Christ’s two advents. What happened in A.D. 70 foreshadowed what will happen on a global scale at his second advent. The last days may continue for thousands of years more. We have been living in the last days since Jesus rose from the dead.

1. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 (Daniel 12:7)

2. “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Daniel 12:6

3. when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7 (Daniel 12:2, 9:26-27)

4. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (Leviticus 9:23; Deuteronomy 32; Daniel 9:26-27; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; Isaiah 65-66 and 61-66; etc)

5. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ Isaiah 51:16
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:1-3
(Hebrews 9:8; Deuteronomy 32; Isaiah 65:17-24, 66:22-24; Daniel 9:26-27;12:2, 7; Matthew 23:32-38, etc)

6. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
(Leviticus 9:23; Hebrews 9:11-12, 24; Daniel 12:2, 6-7)
the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7; Hebrews 9:11-12, 24; Matthew 5:18; Hebrews 8:13)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Thessalonians 4:16
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; Hebrews 9:8, 11-12, 24)
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:39-40
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)

7. For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:27-28
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7)
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:34
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7)

 

[didactics]

1. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 (Daniel 12:7)

2. “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Daniel 12:6

3. when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7 (Daniel 12:2, 9:26-27)

4. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 (Leviticus 9:23; Deuteronomy 32; Daniel 9:26-27; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; Isaiah 65-66 and 61-66; etc)

5. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ Isaiah 51:16
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:1-3
(Hebrews 9:8; Deuteronomy 32; Isaiah 65:17-24, 66:22-24; Daniel 9:26-27;12:2, 7; Matthew 23:32-38, etc)

6. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
(Leviticus 9:23; Hebrews 9:11-12, 24; Daniel 12:2, 6-7)
the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7; Hebrews 9:11-12, 24; Matthew 5:18; Hebrews 8:13)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Thessalonians 4:16
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; Hebrews 9:8, 11-12, 24)
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:39-40
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2, 6-7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)

7. For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:27-28
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7)
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:34
(Leviticus 9:23; Daniel 12:2,6-7)

1. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Good on you for pointing out such relevant verses, but do they really go to your point? "them that sleep in the dust...shall awake" That really sounds like it goes more to my point. Thanks

2. “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Daniel 12:6

This is talking about the 3 and a half years. What I find interesting is that this is also how long Jesus ministry was on earth. Yes, I know it also is how long the Romans held out before they destroyed the city.

3. when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7 (Daniel 12:2, 9:26-27)

What things are finished? This is not saying every prophecy is finished. Jesus said on the cross it is finished, but what did he really mean by that?

"It is finished." What was "finished?" The sacrificial types were accomplished, the prophecies, of His sufferings were fulfilled, the work given Him by the Father had been perfectly done, a sure foundation had been laid on which a righteous God could pardon the vilest transgressor of the law who threw down the weapons of his warfare against Him. Christ had now performed all that was necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to come and work in the hearts of His people; convincing them of their rebellion, slaying their enmity against God, and producing in them a loving and obedient heart.

Arthur Pink, "It is Finished!" gracegems.org

4. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

Again, I'm not seeing how this goes to your point.

5. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

until all is accomplished. full manifestation of God’s kingdom for which believers are to pray (Mt 6:10).
ESV Reformation Study Bible

Do we not need to pray that God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven anymore because it is past? Is the Lord's Prayer not relevant to us today?

the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8

Many Christians believe the new covenant was instituted at the Last Supper. And the curtains were split leading to the most holy place at Christ's death (Mt 27:50-51).

7. For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:27-28

This could be referring to the transfiguration but it could also have more in mind.

 

[Ephesians321]

1. Good on you for pointing out such relevant verses, but do they really go to your point? "them that sleep in the dust...shall awake" That really sounds like it goes more to my point. Thanks

This is talking about the 3 and a half years. What I find interesting is that this is also how long Jesus ministry was on earth. Yes, I know it also is how long the Romans held out before they destroyed the city.

What things are finished? This is not saying every prophecy is finished. Jesus said on the cross it is finished, but what did he really mean by that?

"It is finished." What was "finished?" The sacrificial types were accomplished, the prophecies, of His sufferings were fulfilled, the work given Him by the Father had been perfectly done, a sure foundation had been laid on which a righteous God could pardon the vilest transgressor of the law who threw down the weapons of his warfare against Him. Christ had now performed all that was necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to come and work in the hearts of His people; convincing them of their rebellion, slaying their enmity against God, and producing in them a loving and obedient heart.

Arthur Pink, "It is Finished!" gracegems.org

Again, I'm not seeing how this goes to your point.

until all is accomplished. full manifestation of God’s kingdom for which believers are to pray (Mt 6:10).
ESV Reformation Study Bible

Do we not need to pray that God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven anymore because it is past? Is the Lord's Prayer not relevant to us today?

Many Christians believe the new covenant was instituted at the Last Supper. And the curtains were split leading to the most holy place at Christ's death (Mt 27:50-51).

This could be referring to the transfiguration but it could also have more in mind.

1. The Resurrection occurs during the Parousia of Christ (Presence of Christ not coming of Christ) when Israel is judged and Jerusalem is destroyed and the Law and the Prophets have been officially fulfilled and passed away. In A.D 30-33, was the hope of Israel which is the Gospel preached in every city of Judea, Asia Minor, and the Roman world? Did Israel fill the measure of her sin? Did Jesus avenge the blood of the prophets and the saints? Did the Abomination of Desolation occur? Gog and Magog? Was the Holy Spirit and the gifts given and received? Was Jerusalem and her Temple destroyed? Did her elements melt with a fervent heat?* Was Jerusalem surrounded and overrun like a "flood"? Did Christ create a New Covenant people who were no people before and given a new name? Did Christ create a new priesthood in which Christ serves as the High Priest seated upon the Throne of David? Did Christ sit at the right hand of God? Did Heaven and Earth pass away? Did Christ create New Heavens and New Earth? Did the Resurrection occur?

If you answer no to any of these questions, then the Law and the Prophets have not been fulfilled.

*The Greek word “elements” [#4747 stoixeíon] referred to the elements of religious training or ceremonial precepts. (See: He 5:12, Gal 4:3, 4:9, Col 2:8, 2:20) With the temple’s destruction, any semblance of Old Covenant worship rites was made impossible. The temple was literally taken apart as Roman soldiers salvaged the melted gold from its stones.

The Kingdom of God is not of this world nor does it come with any physical observation. Flesh and blood cannot inherit it. It is an eternal inheritance that God made not with human hands. It is unshakeable. There are no more marriages and we will be like angels.

Parousia of Christ: Leviticus 9:22-23 = Hebrews 9:11-12, 24, 28

when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

Resurrection: Daniel 12:7,2 = Hebrews 9:28,8

 

[didactics]

Did Christ create New Heavens and New Earth? Did the Resurrection occur?

If you answer no to any of these questions, then the Law and the Prophets have not been fulfilled.

I would say no to these 2 questions, but here's the difference. You assume Christ will not appear bodily a second time, therefore you assume he's completed all prophecy. Just because last things have not happened yet does not mean he missed the boat. People in his day assumed the kingdom would come about in one day, which is why many of the Jews rejected him. They supposed he would come and set up his kingdom on earth in a day.

Jesus often presented the kingdom as a hidden and growing reality (Matt. 13:31–33), which is both present and future. In the earthly ministry of Jesus, the kingdom is already present (Lk 11:20), but the full reality of the kingdom is yet to be manifested (cf. Lk 19:11).
ESV Reformation Study Bible [notes on Luke 17:20-37]

And this other note on the Reformation Study Bible is something I pointed out to you earlier:

"Christians are to pray for the full realization of God’s kingdom (Lk 11:2)."

Do you get why I pointed this out to you? Is the Lord's Prayer made obsolete since you say all is fulfilled now? Or is all prayer answered and fulfilled so that we don't need to pray anymore?

 

[Ephesians321]

I would say no to these 2 questions, but here's the difference. You assume Christ will not appear bodily a second time, therefore you assume he's completed all prophecy. Just because last things have not happened yet does not mean he missed the boat. People in his day assumed the kingdom would come about in one day, which is why many of the Jews rejected him. They supposed he would come and set up his kingdom on earth in a day.

Jesus often presented the kingdom as a hidden and growing reality (Matt. 13:31–33), which is both present and future. In the earthly ministry of Jesus, the kingdom is already present (Lk 11:20), but the full reality of the kingdom is yet to be manifested (cf. Lk 19:11).
ESV Reformation Study Bible [notes on Luke 17:20-37]

And this other note on the Reformation Study Bible is something I pointed out to you earlier:

"Christians are to pray for the full realization of God’s kingdom (Lk 11:2)."

Do you get why I pointed this out to you? Is the Lord's Prayer made obsolete since you say all is fulfilled now? Or is all prayer answered and fulfilled so that we don't need to pray anymore?

What is your eschatological stance?

Why would we ever cease praying? The kingdom is still increasing and most of the world is direly lost. Futurists make the same mistake that Jews made in the 1st Century did. Assuming that God was going to create a earthly Messianic kingdom and reign like kings upon the earth. They literally sought dominion and live like kings upon the earth. Christ was a great offense to them. When are they going to realize that being an heir of Abraham holds the eternal promise of an eternal inheritance which is an eternal kingdom?

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:40, 42-50

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
2 Corinthians 5:1-2

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:30

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:5-6

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:8-10

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:13-16

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luke 17:20

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
John 18:36

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:8,15,24

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Hebrews 12:22-24,28

 

[didactics]

What is your eschatological stance?

Why would we ever cease praying? The kingdom is still increasing and most of the world is direly lost. Futurists make the same mistake that Jews made in the 1st Century did. Assuming that God was going to create a earthly Messianic kingdom and reign like kings upon the earth. They literally sought dominion and live like kings upon the earth. Christ was a great offense to them. When are they going to realize that being an heir of Abraham holds the eternal promise of an eternal inheritance which is an eternal kingdom?

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:40, 42-50

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
2 Corinthians 5:1-2

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:30

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:5-6

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:8-10

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:13-16

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luke 17:20

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
John 18:36

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:8,15,24

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Hebrews 12:22-24,28

Maybe I made a bad argument to say the need for praying would cease according to your worldview. Because I forgot that you think differently about the meaning of God's kingdom. You suppose that it continues to grow forever and ever, correct? Because I'm reminded of a verse you quoted from an earlier post:

Of the INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT and peace THERE WILL BE NO END, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:7

My understanding is that the kingdom will grow very large, but the earth will not be in this state always. Kingdom language is used a lot in the parables such as a mustard seed that starts very small and grows to become a tree (Mt 13:31-32). The point here is that it reaches a point of maturity where it is done growing. I reconcile the "increase of government" and "there will be no end" language as that which will come to perfection at last. Some earthly kingdoms were more illustrious than others but didn't last.

Conclusion: You say the kingdom will continue to grow indefinitely because things will continue as they are on earth ad infinitum. That means people continue to live and die and go to heaven and heaven will continue to fill with new souls forever. What I'm saying is that the kingdom of God is not just spiritual but it starts with people following Christ here on earth and that has an impact and influence in the world as the great commission tells us not only to share the gospel but disciple the nations (Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16). When it reaches full maturity that signifies to me that it reaches fulfillment. But in your view there is no end or state of maturity; the kingdom keeps filling with people and it will continue to fill forever, signifying the kingdom of God never reaches maturity.

 

[Ephesians321]

Maybe I made a bad argument to say the need for praying would cease according to your worldview. Because I forgot that you think differently about the meaning of God's kingdom. You suppose that it continues to grow forever and ever, correct? Because I'm reminded of a verse you quoted from an earlier post:

My understanding is that the kingdom will grow very large, but the earth will not be in this state always. Kingdom language is used a lot in the parables such as a mustard seed that starts very small and grows to become a tree (Mt 13:31-32). The point here is that it reaches a point of maturity where it is done growing. I reconcile the "increase of government" and "there will be no end" language as that which will come to perfection at last. Some earthly kingdoms were more illustrious than others but didn't last.

Conclusion: You say the kingdom will continue to grow indefinitely because things will continue as they are on earth ad infinitum. That means people continue to live and die and go to heaven and heaven will continue to fill with new souls forever. What I'm saying is that the kingdom of God is not just spiritual but it starts with people following Christ here on earth and that has an impact and influence in the world as the great commission tells us not only to share the gospel but disciple the nations (Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16). When it reaches full maturity that signifies to me that it reaches fulfillment. But in your view there is no end or state of maturity; the kingdom keeps filling with people and it will continue to fill forever, signifying the kingdom of God never reaches maturity.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13-14


And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Genesis 8:21

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.
Psalm 78:69

My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: HIS SEED SHALL ENDURE FOREVER, AND HIS THRONE AS THE SUN BEFORE ME; IT SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER LIKE THE MOON, EVEN LIKE THE FAITHFUL WITNESS IN THE SKY. Selah
Psalm 89:34-37

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established, so that it cannot be moved.
Psalm 93:1

Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the Lord, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.
Psalm 148:1-6

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.
Ecclesiastes 1:4

“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

“This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS GOD OF HEAVEN WILL SET UP A KINGDOM WHICH SHALL NEVER BE DESTROYED [ROME]; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND IT SHALL STAND FOREVER.
Daniel 2:31-44

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 (The Ascension of Christ)

to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:21

 

[didactics]

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13-14


And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Genesis 8:21

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.
Psalm 78:69

My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: HIS SEED SHALL ENDURE FOREVER, AND HIS THRONE AS THE SUN BEFORE ME; IT SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOREVER LIKE THE MOON, EVEN LIKE THE FAITHFUL WITNESS IN THE SKY. Selah
Psalm 89:34-37

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established, so that it cannot be moved.
Psalm 93:1

Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the Lord, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.
Psalm 148:1-6

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.
Ecclesiastes 1:4

“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

“This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS GOD OF HEAVEN WILL SET UP A KINGDOM WHICH SHALL NEVER BE DESTROYED [ROME]; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND IT SHALL STAND FOREVER.
Daniel 2:31-44

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 (The Ascension of Christ)

to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Ephesians 3:21

None of these verses refute what I have been saying. I don't personally think the earth will be completely gone and then recreated. There will come a day of final judgement which may involve cataclysmic changes, and then the earth will be a place without sin.

And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Genesis 8:21

And I've already given my explanation of this verse. My understanding is that he promises never to add to the curse of the ground with a global flood, but we know the ground is still cursed when sin entered the world. As the curse involved hardship in tilling the ground dealing with thorns and thistles.

 

[Ephesians321]

1. None of these verses refute what I have been saying. I don't personally think the earth will be completely gone and then recreated. There will come a day of final judgement which may involve cataclysmic changes, and then the earth will be a place without sin.

2. And I've already given my explanation of this verse. My understanding is that he promises never to add to the curse of the ground with a global flood, but we know the ground is still cursed when sin entered the world. As the curse involved hardship in tilling the ground dealing with thorns and thistles.

1. All of the verses of Isaiah 65:15-24 are speaking about earth under the New Covenant we currently live in today: And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name: That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Who are physically resurrected dying babies and dying old men? Who are the physically resurrected accursed sinners? Who are the physically resurrected blessed seed and their offspring? Matthew 22:30 says this shouldn't be.

All of the verses of Isaiah 66:21-24 are speaking about earth under the New Covenant we currently live in today:

And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.“For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.“And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Who are the new physically resurrected Levites? Who are the physically resurrected descendants whose names remains forever? Matthew 22:30 says this shouldn't be. And who are the corpses and why are they still here decaying and rotting under the New Heavens?

Revelation 21:1; 22:2

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Who are the physically resurrected and immortalized nations that still require healing from Christ despite the fact he is reigning amongst them from physical Jerusalem?

2. NOR will I AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING THING [ALTHOUGH THE IMAGINATION OF A MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH] as I have done.

 

[Ephesians321]

 

[Reasonably Sane]

It has importance when spreading the Good News. There would be more success if the Genesis 6 day creation story was not presented as literal. It does become a non- starter for some unbelivers. Blessings.

The other one is the "turn or burn" doctrine. When I argue against it with "anti-christians", they defend it as a biblical doctrine as if their life depended on it. It is the biggest arrow against Christianity in their quiver. Though the "6000 year old earth" claim is pretty darned close.

Convince an "anti-Christian" that neither of those things are Christian doctrine, and you've pretty much taken all the wind out of their sails. Frankly, it can be downright comical.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I see the earth as a very old place that has seen many "ages" and will see many more. I see it as a canvas on which is painted an "age", followed by whitewash, followed by another painting (age), etc. I believe this "age" is probably about 6,000 years old. But if you peal back the painting you will find some evidence of the paintings under it. Y'know, Neanderthal man, dinosaurs, etc.

And our bible tells us the things we need to know. God doesn't share everything with us. We are his imagers or "caretakers" of this particular planet. What's going on on the quadrillions of other planets in other solar systems is none of our concern. What's coming up in the (probably) many ages to follow this one are also none of our concern, other than His instruction on how to live and trust him, and be the caretakers of this particular planet.

i.e. this stuff is all speculation about stuff we have no inkling of. It's like a guy's pets speculating on where he goes five days a week for 8 hours. It is a total waste of time. They have not a clue about where or even why he disappears. They don't even grasp the concept of a week.

That's us on this sort of stuff.

At least, that is my take on all this.

 

[Ephesians321]

No mockery of God and his word intended but as a believer who is truly convicted that Adam and Eve were mortally created from the dust but had perfect standing relationship and fellowship with God whom had they not doubted God and had not sinned against Him would have died and ascended into heaven on their own merit alone. But no, they sinned and suffered a spiritual death which lead also to an immediate eternal separation from God both on earth and in heaven. They sinned and it was necessary to cast them out of the Garden because God can not abide with sin.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

...immediate eternal separation from God both on earth and in heaven.

And if God is everywhere, the only way you can be "separated" from God is to cease to exist.

 

[Ephesians321]

And if God is everywhere, the only way you can be "separated" from God is to cease to exist.

That is not what I said, Christ restored what we lost in the Garden. God now dwells in our hearts and transforms us into children of God. Now we have a High Priest who performed one perfect and acceptable sacrifice for all time to forgive us of all our transgressions and sins. God will now hear all of our prayers and perform them according to His will.

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 5:5

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.
Habbakuk 1:13

But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.
Isaiah 59:2

 

[didactics]

earth under the New Covenant

What is "earth under the new covenant"? God made a covenant with the earth not to flood it again (see Ge 9:11).

Who are physically resurrected dying babies and dying old men?

What the heck are you talking about?!

Who are the physically resurrected accursed sinners?

You understand this language in Isaiah to be figurative just like I do. Only you're interpreting it in a very gross way. My personal take on it is it's talking about the church age. Christian parents who tragically lose their child in infancy are not shaken in their faith and lose their ultimate hope, and they take comfort in knowing them in heaven one day. And it might as well be like the child lived to a hundred. Meanwhile a man dies at a hundred and goes to hell would seem like he died in infancy.

Who are the physically resurrected blessed seed and their offspring? Matthew 22:30 says this shouldn't be.

So you're asking me a question and assuming my answer by saying Mt 22:30 says this shouldn't be? That's really confusing I'm not going to lie. Your question is who is the resurrected blessed seed. The resurrected blessed seed is the spiritual descendants of Abraham? “Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). Now your answer to me is that Mt 22:30 says the physical resurrection of a spiritual family of God says this shouldn't be? No, you're right it doesn't say anything about the physical resurrection being the sons of Abraham. [face palm] It doesn't say anything about it not being the sons of Abraham, or something being physical for that matter.

But all jokes aside, I find this argument really lame. It's not saying believers when they go to heaven BECOME ANGELS, for God's sake!

Who are the physically resurrected and immortalized nations that still require healing from Christ despite the fact he is reigning amongst them from physical Jerusalem?

The sons of Abraham? No wait that was answered already. They are spiritual descendants so they don't need to be a direct bloodline of Abraham. [face palm] Was that answer not sufficient enough for you? Oh, I get it, you're talking about the kingdom of Christ only stands forever if he makes it to stand forever (see Heb 1:3). Okay, I'm really not getting your question. Okay, here's my answer. It's not that they NEED healing, it is talking about being most healthful and vibrant, more than we could ever know in this life.

2. NOR will I AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING THING [ALTHOUGH THE IMAGINATION OF A MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH] as I have done.

Last but not least is how do I reconcile what this verse says and how it squares with my understanding that there will be a final judgment followed by the earth being restored to paradise (Ge 8:21). That's a good question actually, although you didn't really ask it but that's beside the point. Maybe the answer is that in the final judgment it doesn't destroy every living thing as it did with a worldwide flood. The final judgment will be different. I don't claim to know what it will be like but I imagine it will be cataclysmic to destroy unbelievers. Maybe the cataclysm will be destructive to people but at the same time it will be restorative to the earth.

 

[Ephesians321]

didactics,


You are not reading these verses in their proper context:

Isaiah 65:1-16 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Verse Isaiah 65:17 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (The New Covenant is created)

Verses 18-24 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

Isaiah 66:1-21 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Verse Isaiah 66:22 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant is created)

Verses 23-24 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

Revelation 1-20 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Revelation 21:1 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant is created)

Verse 22:2 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

 

[didactics]

didactics,


You are not reading these verses in their proper context:

Isaiah 65:1-16 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Verse Isaiah 65:17 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (The New Covenant is created)

Verses 18-24 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

Isaiah 66:1-21 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Verse Isaiah 66:22 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant is created)

Verses 23-24 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

Revelation 1-20 the doomed generation, the last days (end times) of the Mosaic Age, culminating in Israel falling under judgement climaxing with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70

Revelation 21:1 God creates the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant is created)

Verse 22:2 conditions under the New Heaven and New Earth (the New Covenant)

No, the new covenant is not made with the earth, that's ludicrous. It's made with people, the 12 disciples at the Last Supper to be precise. That was when it was instituted and the church age began at Pentecost when they were gathered in the upper room.