Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[Ephesians321]

Psalm 2 is relevant to this:
The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together, (v. 2)
and speaking of his Son:
You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ (v. 9)

If you say that God continues to judge the world today, why would you not also conclude there must be a final judgement day?

Also, I'm not saying that God is going to remove his throne in heaven. The point of all this is to say there will be harmony between heaven and earth; there will be no more disunity.

Acts 4:25-26 quotes this very verse but guess who the "nations" are? They are the Gentiles (Gentiles, Goyim). And "the People" are? The Jews. Also, whenever the earth is spoken of it means land, region, country(ies), in Hebrew it is erets and in Greek it is ge. The writers of the New Testament had no concept of an Old World and New World neither a Western hemisphere or the size and ends of the Northern and Southern hemisphere. We must adopt a 1st century perspective to understand the scope.

And furthermore, Peter applied Psalm 2 to 1st Century fulfillment in Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and Israel after the flesh that actively persecuted the church:

So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:
‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
Acts 4:25-30

 

[Ephesians321]

This is the problem with spiritualizing death. The first man was clay until God breathed the breath of life into him. Then and only then did the clay and breath together become a living soul. God expressed what would happen to man...that he would go back to what He was before: dust (clay).
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adam died physically because he ate of the wrong tree, and because he is intrinsically a physical being. And Christ rose physically from the dead to give us hope of something after death, by resurrection. So our resurrection is assured, because He overcame physical death. The bodies actually come out of the graves, not just spirits out of Hades.
John 5:28 KJV — Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Your doctrine says those in the graves are nothing to God, that He only cares about their soul/spirit. But Jesus cared about their bodies, which He says will come forth from the graves (not from "Hades")

John 5:29 KJV — And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Your doctrine is one of hopelessness, because man is not msn man without a body. Jesus became man, with a body, that He took into heaven with Him because He is forever the God-man. Why would Jesus want to raise His human body to show His followers that their bodies will NOT be raised?

Speak for yourself. Bodily resurrection was absolutely necessary for Christ for a sign unto us but not at all necessary for us to individually participate in. Plus, there had been other bodily resurrections sprinkled through out the Bible that occured prior to Christ's resurrection. If bodily resurrection is inserted into the text of Matthew 22:30 than Christ can not be the Firstfruits.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

NO ONE HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13

BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:26

To those who eagerly wait for Him He will APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, FOR SALVATION. Hebrews 9:28

that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:40

the Holy Spirit indicating THAT THE WAY INTO the Holiest of All WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST WHILE the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old IS READY TO VANISH AWAY. Hebrews 8:13

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but ARE LIKE ANGELS of God IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:30

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

 

[Derf]

Speak for yourself. Bodily resurrection was absolutely necessary for Christ for a sign unto us but not at all necessary for us to individually participate in. Plus, there had been other bodily resurrections sprinkled through out the Bible that occured prior to Christ's resurrection. If bodily resurrection is inserted into the text of Matthew 22:30 than Christ can not be the Firstfruits.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

NO ONE HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13

BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:26

To those who eagerly wait for Him He will APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, FOR SALVATION. Hebrews 9:28

that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:40

the Holy Spirit indicating THAT THE WAY INTO the Holiest of All WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST WHILE the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old IS READY TO VANISH AWAY. Hebrews 8:13

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but ARE LIKE ANGELS of God IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:30

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

He would still be the firstfruits if those others still died again afterward. His resurrection was to a state where he would die no more.
[Rom 6:9 KJV] 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

 

[Ephesians321]

He would still be the firstfruits if those others still died again afterward. His resurrection was to a state where he would die no more.
[Rom 6:9 KJV] 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Incorrect, Christ has returned to the state of glory He possessed before the world existed. Christ has His preincarnate glory now. He now shares the same Glory as the Father. And the Father is a Spirit.

For the Son of Man WILL COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. ASSUREDLY, I say to you, there are SOME STANDING HERE WHO SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM” Matthew 16:27-28

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.“Father, I desire that THEY ALSO WHOM YOU GAVE ME MAY BE WITH ME WHERE I AM, THAT THEY BEHOLD MY GLORY WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN ME; FOR YOU LOVED ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. John 17:5, 24

 

[Derf]

Speak for yourself. Bodily resurrection was absolutely necessary for Christ for a sign unto us but not at all necessary for us to individually participate in. Plus, there had been other bodily resurrections sprinkled through out the Bible that occured prior to Christ's resurrection. If bodily resurrection is inserted into the text of Matthew 22:30 than Christ can not be the Firstfruits.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

Of them that "slept". Were people in Hades sleeping? What is sleeping is the physical body.

NO ONE HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13

Ok

BUT NOW, ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:26

Ok

To those who eagerly wait for Him He will APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, FOR SALVATION. Hebrews 9:28

Right. Salvation from death, which is the parting of the spirit (breath) from the body to make a person no longer a living soul.

that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.” John 6:40

Raise up from sleep (death).

the Holy Spirit indicating THAT THE WAY INTO the Holiest of All WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST WHILE the first tabernacle was still standing. Hebrews 9:8

Right.

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old IS READY TO VANISH AWAY. Hebrews 8:13

Yes, the old covenant.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

I don't this has happened yet.

For IN THE RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but ARE LIKE ANGELS of God IN HEAVEN. Matthew 22:30

Not in every aspect like angels, but with regard to marrying and giving in marriage. Any more is to add to scripture for that verse.

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

Paul defines corruption as related to "flesh and blood". But corruption, physical body, must put on incorruption; mortality, physical body, must put on immortality.
If the soul is immortal, as you seem to say, and it is all that is raised, then immortality is putting on immortality, which isn't what the verse is talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV — So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown (is buried) in corruption; it (the body) is raised (called from the grave) in incorruption:

You have a serious flaw if God doesn't actually raise bodies from the dead, when Paul says they are raised.

 

[Ephesians321]

Of them that "slept". Were people in Hades sleeping? What is sleeping is the physical body.

Ok

Ok

Right. Salvation from death, which is the parting of the spirit (breath) from the body to make a person no longer a living soul.

Raise up from sleep (death).

Right.

Yes, the old covenant.

I don't this has happened yet.

Not in every aspect like angels, but with regard to marrying and giving in marriage. Any more is to add to scripture for that verse.

Paul defines corruption as related to "flesh and blood". But corruption, physical body, must put on incorruption; mortality, physical body, must put on immortality.
If the soul is immortal, as you seem to say, and it is all that is raised, then immortality is putting on immortality, which isn't what the verse is talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV — So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown (is buried) in corruption; it (the body) is raised (called from the grave) in incorruption:

You have a serious flaw if God doesn't actually raise bodies from the dead, when Paul says they are raised.

1. Jesus is the firstfruit of the spiritual resurrection.

2. And no one has ascended into heaven therefore no spiritual resurrection has occured yet.

3. Christ died and rose from the dead IN THE LAST DAYS.

4. 70 A.D. Parousia

5. Christ will raise us up on the last day of the Mosaic Age A.D. 70 because all scriptures must be fulfilled before the passing of the generation.

6., 7. The Resurrection does not happen until Parousia, Temple (elements of the Mosaic Age) are destroyed, Jerusalem is judged after Israel had has filled the measure of her sins, Jesus avenges the blood of the prophets and saints. God creates a New Jerusalem, a (living) Temple with Christ as its cornerstone, a New Heaven and Earth (strictly covenantal in nature), a New People, a Priesthood with Christ serving as a High Priest, etc. The Old Covenant must pass away but not before the whole Law and Prophets have been fulfilled approximate to our spiritual Resurrection. Hebrews 9:8, 8:13, Matthew 5:17-18, 24:33-35

8., 9., 10. The spiritual Resurrection in A.D. 70

Do you realize Futurists are emphatically asserting that Jesus did not fulfill the whole Law and the Prophets??? That means the Law and the Prophets has not passed away yet. That means the Mosaic Age has not ended yet. And The Law And Prophets still stands and convicts us. That also means we haven't received our salvation yet (Hebrews 9:28).

Daniel 12:1-7 even pinpoints the time of the spiritual Resurrection which is in full agreement with full preterist eschatology. Look at verses 2, 6-7.


“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
AND MANY OF THOSE WHO SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.*
[* Spiritual Resurrection A.D. 70, upon the passing away of the Law and the Prophets and the Parousia, Matthew 5:17-18, Hebrews 9:8, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:16]
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, AND SEAL THE BOOK UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END*
[*c.f. Hebrews 9:26, Revelation 22:10]
; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "HOW LONG SHALL THE FULFILLMENT OF THESE WONDERS BE?"*
[* Daniel inquires about the time of the fulfillment of our spiritual Resurrection]
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; AND WHEN THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY SHATTERED, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED!*

* Matthew 5:17-18; Hebrews 9:8, 26, 28; Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 23:32-38, Matthew 24:4-35, Matthew 24:34-35, Matthew 26:64

 

[Derf]

1. Jesus is the firstfruit of the spiritual resurrection.

How was Jesus ever spiritually dead?

2. And no one has ascended into heaven therefore no spiritual resurrection has occured yet.

I assume you are referring to the time if those scriptures.

3. Christ died and rose from the dead IN THE LAST DAYS.

4. 70 A.D. Parousia

Christ didn't die circa 30 ad?

5. Christ will raise us up on the last day of the Mosaic Age A.D. 70 because all scriptures must be fulfilled before the passing of the generation.

6., 7. The Resurrection does not happen until Parousia, Temple (elements of the Mosaic Age) are destroyed, Jerusalem is judged after Israel had has filled the measure of her sins, Jesus avenges the blood of the prophets and saints. God creates a New Jerusalem, a (living) Temple with Christ as its cornerstone, a New Heaven and Earth (strictly covenantal in nature), a New People, a Priesthood with Christ serving as a High Priest, etc. The Old Covenant must pass away but not before the whole Law and Prophets have been fulfilled approximate to our spiritual Resurrection. Hebrews 9:8, 8:13, Matthew 5:17-18, 24:33-35

8., 9., 10. The spiritual Resurrection in A.D. 70

Again, if Jesus is the first fruits of the spiritual resurrection, then Jesus must have spiritually died. When did that happen?

Do you realize Futurists are emphatically asserting that Jesus did not fulfill the whole Law and the Prophets??? That means the Law and the Prophets has not passed away yet. That means the Mosaic Age has not ended yet. And The Law And Prophets still stands and convicts us. That also means we haven't received our salvation yet (Hebrews 9:28).

No, we haven't, in either your view or mine. Our salvation is from death. If the 70 ad parousia is the same as us being forever with the Lord (1 Thes 4:17-18), then 1. you and I (born after 70 ad) must have never been spiritually separated from God, or 2. then our resurrection has not happened. One of those must be true.
But Paul told the Thessalonians that they would know when their brethren whi has fallen asleep were raised from the dead BECAUSE they would meet them in the air when they met Jesus. That didn't happen in 70 ad.

Daniel 12:1-7 even pinpoints the time of the spiritual Resurrection which is in full agreement with full preterist eschatology. Look at verses 2, 6-7.


“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
AND MANY OF THOSE WHO SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH SHALL AWAKE, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.*
[* Spiritual Resurrection

It cant be spiritual resurrection of the ones who are being raised are awakening out of "the dust". Those are physical resurrection terms.

A.D. 70, upon the passing away of the Law and the Prophets and the Parousia, Matthew 5:17-18, Hebrews 9:8, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:16]
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, AND SEAL THE BOOK UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END*
[*c.f. Hebrews 9:26, Revelation 22:10]
; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "HOW LONG SHALL THE FULFILLMENT OF THESE WONDERS BE?"*
[* Daniel inquires about the time of the fulfillment of our spiritual Resurrection]
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; AND WHEN THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY SHATTERED, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED!*

* Matthew 5:17-18; Hebrews 9:8, 26, 28; Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 23:32-38, Matthew 24:4-35, Matthew 24:34-35, Matthew 26:64

I appreciate that the "futurists" dont have everything figured out. But you've shown that you are willing to completely do away with the central tenet of the Christian faith, physical resurrection, to make your view work. And it still doesn't work.

Instead of spiritualizing the resurrection, it would be better, in my mind, to spiritualize some of those hard-to-understand prophecies.

 

[Ephesians321]

How was Jesus ever spiritually dead?

I assume you are referring to the time if those scriptures.

Christ didn't die circa 30 ad?

Again, if Jesus is the first fruits of the spiritual resurrection, then Jesus must have spiritually died. When did that happen?

No, we haven't, in either your view or mine. Our salvation is from death. If the 70 ad parousia is the same as us being forever with the Lord (1 Thes 4:17-18), then 1. you and I (born after 70 ad) must have never been spiritually separated from God, or 2. then our resurrection has not happened. One of those must be true.
But Paul told the Thessalonians that they would know when their brethren whi has fallen asleep were raised from the dead BECAUSE they would meet them in the air when they met Jesus. That didn't happen in 70 ad.


It cant be spiritual resurrection of the ones who are being raised are awakening out of "the dust". Those are physical resurrection terms.

I appreciate that the "futurists" dont have everything figured out. But you've shown that you are willing to completely do away with the central tenet of the Christian faith, physical resurrection, to make your view work. And it still doesn't work.

Instead of spiritualizing the resurrection, it would be better, in my mind, to spiritualize some of those hard-to-understand prophecies.

Derf: How was Jesus ever spiritually dead?

He suffered the Adamic spiritual death once he was hung and died on the cross.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,lemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Luke 23:43 (Hadean Paradise is not Heaven)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:9-10

Derf: Christ didn't die circa 30 ad?

but IN THESE LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. Hebrews 1:2

1. BUT NOW,
2. ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES,
3. HE HAS APPEARED
4. TO PUT AWAY SIN
5. BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF

Hebrews 9:26



Derf: Again, if Jesus is the first fruits of the spiritual resurrection, then Jesus must have spiritually died. When did that happen?

Jesus suffered the Adamic spiritual death once he was hung and died on the cross.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,lemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Luke 23:43 (Hadean Paradise is not Heaven)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:9-10


Derf: No, we haven't, in either your view or mine. Our salvation is from death. If the 70 ad parousia is the same as us being forever with the Lord (1 Thes 4:17-18), then 1. you and I (born after 70 ad) must have never been spiritually separated from God, or 2. then our resurrection has not happened. One of those must be true.
But Paul told the Thessalonians that they would know when their brethren whi has fallen asleep were raised from the dead BECAUSE they would meet them in the air when they met Jesus. That didn't happen in 70 ad.

No, what Paul said was that all of the dead in Christ rose first at the spiritual Resurrection A.D. 70 then we who are alive will meet them in the air [Heaven] when we die too and join them to be with the Lord in Heaven forever. See Ephesians 3:21 Church age has no end. The increase of Heaven has no end either. See Isaiah 9:7. Flesh and blood can not inherit heaven. See 1 Corinthians 15:50, Hebrews 11:10,16; 12:28; Galatians 3:29. The Rapture is a false doctrine that has gripped the Church. The Rapture is not taught in the Bible.

 

[Derf]

Derf: How was Jesus ever spiritually dead?

He suffered the Adamic spiritual death once he was hung and died on the cross.

Same time as physical death, good!

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,lemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Luke 23:43 (Hadean Paradise is not Heaven)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:9-10

Derf: Christ didn't die circa 30 ad?

Ok, you include the time of Jesus' death as last days. I wasn't sure.

but IN THESE LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. Hebrews 1:2

1. BUT NOW,
2. ONCE AT THE END OF THE AGES,
3. HE HAS APPEARED
4. TO PUT AWAY SIN
5. BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF

Hebrews 9:26



Derf: Again, if Jesus is the first fruits of the spiritual resurrection, then Jesus must have spiritually died. When did that happen?

Jesus suffered the Adamic spiritual death once he was hung and died on the cross.

Good! And when was Jesus resurrected spiritually?

Derf: No, we haven't, in either your view or mine. Our salvation is from death. If the 70 ad parousia is the same as us being forever with the Lord (1 Thes 4:17-18), then 1. you and I (born after 70 ad) must have never been spiritually separated from God, or 2. then our resurrection has not happened. One of those must be true.
But Paul told the Thessalonians that they would know when their brethren whi has fallen asleep were raised from the dead BECAUSE they would meet them in the air when they met Jesus. That didn't happen in 70 ad.

Yet, the same shout, voice, trumpet is mentioned for both events, which triggers first the dead to rise (physical resurrection, since the alive in Christ aren't said to "rise"), then the alive to be caught up, then the previously dead are WITH the previously alive AS they ALL meet Him in the air
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV — For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You say the first has happened, and the second has not, but the verse talks abobiut happening at around the same time.

No, what Paul said was that all of the dead in Christ rose first at the spiritual Resurrection A.D. 70 then we who are alive will meet them in the air [Heaven] when we die too and join them to be with the Lord in Heaven forever. See Ephesians 3:21 Church age has no end. The increase of Heaven has no end either. See Isaiah 9:7. Flesh and blood can not inherit heaven. See 1 Corinthians 15:50, Hebrews 11:10,16; 12:28; Galatians 3:29. The Rapture is a false doctrine that has gripped the Church. The Rapture is not taught in the Bible.

It is, but I grant you it is misunderstood.

 

[Ephesians321]

1. DERF: Same time as physical death, good!

You know why:

Hebrews 9:11-10:18

2. DERF: Ok, you include the time of Jesus' death as last days. I wasn't sure.

I do. Let me properly rephrase these two verses for you.

God has spoken to us by His Son Christ in these Last Days. Hebrews 1:2

Now at the end of this age, Christ appeared once and died for our sins. Hebrews 9:26

3. DERF: Good! And when was Jesus resurrected spiritually?

He descended into Hadean Paradise (the penitent thief remember) and ascended into Heaven to sit at the right hand of God clothed in the Glory he possessed before the earth was even created. The sign of Jonah.

4.-5. DERF: Yet, the same shout, voice, trumpet is mentioned for both events, which triggers first the dead to rise (physical resurrection, since the alive in Christ aren't said to "rise"), then the alive to be caught up, then the previously dead are WITH the previously alive AS they ALL meet Him in the air
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV — For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You say the first has happened, and the second has not, but the verse talks abobiut happening at around the same time. It is, but I grant you it is misunderstood.

The dead did rise first. Now ask yourself why do they rise first? The clue is in 1 Corinthians 15:52:

Although lost to our translations, this is borne out by the Greek:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The almost universal assumption here is that the "last trumpet" and the trumpet that would mark the resurrection of the dead are the same trumpet. Hence, our English translations substitute the indefinite article ("a trumpet") with the definite article ("the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, etc"). This is interpretational, not translational; the Greek says that our change, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, will occur at the last trumpet. The Greek does not identify the last trumpet with the trumpet that would mark the resurrection of the dead. The translators assume they are the same and so change the text. But the Greek distinguishes them by the difference in the definite versus indefinite article. We feel the translators' alteration of the Greek is mistaken and the source of confusion and error.

If anything is clear, Daniel placed the resurrection of the dead at the destruction of the Jewish state (Dan. 12:2, 7). Jesus quotes Daniel in John's gospel, and indicates that the time for fulfillment of that prophecy was near (Jn. 5:25-29). John also ties the resurrection to the fall of Jerusalem in Rev. 11:2, 15-18). You and I obviously were not alive then. Does that mean we will not be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye? Not at all. II Cor. 4:16-5:10 makes plain that when our outer man, this physical body dies, we receive a new body, a house from heaven, suitable for inhabiting eternity with Christ above. Thus, the "change" occurs as we die. But if the change occurs when we die, and there is to be a last trumpet heralding our change, then the last trumpet necessarily occurs for each of us at the time of physical death.


For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, ETERNAL [how long?] IN THE HEAVEN [where?]. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with OUR HABITATION [what nature?] WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN [from where?] if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6

 

[didactics]

Acts 4:25-26 quotes this very verse but guess who the "nations" are? They are the Gentiles (Gentiles, Goyim). And "the People" are? The Jews. Also, whenever the earth is spoken of it means land, region, country(ies), in Hebrew it is erets and in Greek it is ge. The writers of the New Testament had no concept of an Old World and New World neither a Western hemisphere or the size and ends of the Northern and Southern hemisphere. We must adopt a 1st century perspective to understand the scope.

A first century audience may not know the size of earth or how vast it is, although I think they were smarter than you give them credit for. Wasn't it Eratosthenes who came up with a very close estimation of earth's circumference? One thing they did understand is Christ is king of kings. It was not hard for them to understand that he would ultimately show himself to be sovereign over all the earth and it should not be hard for us either.

 

[Ephesians321]

THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES

The “day of the Lord” was an oft repeated occurrence in the Old Testament and never involved a physical appearance of Yahweh. However, what was visible was the utter devastation left by His judgment. With the New Testament anticipation of Jesus’ “Day of the Lord” we are told he would come in the “glory of the Father” (Lk. 9:26). Jesus came invisibly in judgment just as his Father had, but that which was visible was the utter ruin of Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the heart of the Jewish State. These events sealed the fulfillment of all prophecy and ushered in the fullness of the spiritual Kingdom of God. Please note the use of Hebraic apocalyptic hyperbolic language through-out and cloud reference in #2.

1. Yahweh used the Assyrians to Defeat Israel, 721 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Woe to you that desire the day of the LORD!..[It] is darkness and not light…” Amos 5:18f
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For behold the LORD is coming forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will be molten under him and the valleys will be cleft like wax before the fire …” Micah 1:3-4

2. Yahweh used Sargon of Assyria to Defeat Egypt, circa 712 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and shall come to Egypt…” Isaiah 19:1
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt in its midst.” Is. 19:1 (see ch. 19-20)

3. Yahweh used Nebuchadnezzar to Defeat Pharaoh at Carchemish, 605 BC.
Day of the LORD: “…Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…” Jer. 46:10
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “For they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as wood cutters. They shall cut down her forest, says Yahweh, though it can't be searched; because they are more than the locusts, and are innumerable.” Jer. 46:22-23

4. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Jerusalem, 586 BC.
Day of the LORD: “For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation.” Jer. 4:27
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…the heavens had no light, the mountains were quaking and all the hills moved back and forth…there was no man, and all the birds of the sky had fled…the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be black…" Jer. 4:23-29

5. Yahweh used the Babylonians to Defeat Edom, 583 BC.
Day of the LORD: “For the LORD has a day of vengeance…” Is. 34:8
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “All the host of sky shall be dissolved, and the sky shall roll up like a scroll. All their hosts shall fall…the Lord has a sword. It is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat….Its streams will be turned into pitch, its dust into sulfur, and its land will become burning pitch.” Isaiah 34:4,5,9

6. Yahweh used the Medes to Defeat Babylon, 539 BC.
Day of the LORD: “Behold the day the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger to make the earth a desolation." Isaiah 13:9
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “…The stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine. I will make people more rare than fine gold… Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger…” Isaiah 13:10-13

7. The Son of Man used the Romans to Defeat Israel AD 67-70.
Day of the LORD: “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night…you* are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” I These. 5:2-4. (see also I Cor. 1:8)
Figurative Hyperbolic Description: “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, … they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory….” Matt. 24:29f

* Paul was writing to first century believers (circa AD 52) some of whom would witness this event.
Note: Day of the Lord=Coming of the Lord=Coming of the Son of Man= coming in clouds=the day of Christ=the second coming=that day

EDITED: I can not overestimate the importance of this article screenshot, futurism and its literalism is choking the beauty and revelation of prophetic words in the Bible. There is no coming of a one world government (Rome was an Empire aka a one world government, and their Emperors were worshipped as gods), mark of the Beast (these are believed to be Jewish phylacteries btw the False Prophet resembled a lamb but spoke like a dragon, these Jewish false teachers of God/antichrists/synagogue of Satan controlled all the local markets and were empowered by dragon to persecute Jewish-Christians), Gog and Magog, and no Great Tribulation (firstfruits of the church already lived through this). None of these are destined to happen in our age or any age. But we still experiences personifications of Satan in government, politics, and religion and Christians still face terrible persecutions due to government sanctioned laws, intolerance, and religious bigamy.

 

[Ephesians321]

 

[Ephesians321]

The Restrainer (Claudius Caesar, jus gladdii, religio licita) and The Man of Sin, Son of Perdition (Nero Caesar and The Great Tribulation, Rev. 7:14, 14:4)

 

[didactics]

The Restrainer (Claudius Caesar, jus gladdii, religio licita) and The Man of Sin, Son of Perdition (Nero Caesar and The Great Tribulation, Rev. 7:14, 14:4)

View attachment 338911View attachment 338912View attachment 338913

Great, you can make a good case that most prophecies have been fulfilled. And what of the promised bodily resurrection of the living and the dead?

It certainly does make a profound pastoral difference to a person if they’re told that actually, because Christ has already come, and the resurrection has already happened, your present experience of life is as good as it gets.

How does that square with what we know to be true of the brokenness of our world, or indeed of ourselves?

Ro 8:21-24
creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.

"Partial preterism, then, tries to capture something of an “already but not yet” balance. Enjoying the firstfruits of the Spirit while knowing that our bodies are not yet finally redeemed. Thrilled by the countless prophecies fulfilled by Christ’s first coming, but eagerly awaiting the glorious and very visible return of the King."

Barry Cooper, March 01, 2022, "Preterism" ligonier.org

 

[Ephesians321]

Great, you can make a good case that most prophecies have been fulfilled. And what of the promised bodily resurrection of the living and the dead?

It certainly does make a profound pastoral difference to a person if they’re told that actually, because Christ has already come, and the resurrection has already happened, your present experience of life is as good as it gets.

How does that square with what we know to be true of the brokenness of our world, or indeed of ourselves?

Ro 8:21-24
creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.

"Partial preterism, then, tries to capture something of an “already but not yet” balance. Enjoying the firstfruits of the Spirit while knowing that our bodies are not yet finally redeemed. Thrilled by the countless prophecies fulfilled by Christ’s first coming, but eagerly awaiting the glorious and very visible return of the King."

Barry Cooper, March 01, 2022, "Preterism" ligonier.org

First off Adam and Eve were created mortal and died a spiritual death. If everything created was immortal and vegetarian well that is not a paradise that is an ecological disaster. For theory's sake, if Eve and then Adam passed the serpent's temptation Earth would have become overcrowded in a relative short time. Also, imagine the ants, lice, fleas, flies, mites, scabies, mosquitos, cockroaches, locusts, rodents, etc that wouldn't have been a Paradise it would have been a living hell. The competition for vegetation, food would be so high it would have left the whole planet a dead deforested desert but the wildlife can't die. Animals with a high reproduction rates and very quick growth cycles would have exploded and overrun the planet. They would have literally crawled beneath our feet like a living carpet. The land and oceans would have filled should to shoulder, gill to fin, claw to hoof, the skies would be darkened with flying insects and birds. And we would have nowhere to swim in our waters, rivers, lakes, and ponds would be literally swimming in living animals not waters. Our reservoirs would be undrinkable full of collecting animal body waste.

I have explained and plenty of verses that provided evidence of a spiritual Resurrection already. I would hate to repeat myself all over again.

 

[didactics]

First off Adam and Eve were created mortal and died a spiritual death. If everything created was immortal and vegetarian well that is not a paradise that is an ecological disaster. For theory's sake, if Eve and then Adam passed the serpent's temptation Earth would have become overcrowded in a relative short time. Also, imagine the ants, lice, fleas, flies, mites, scabies, mosquitos, cockroaches, locusts, rodents, etc that wouldn't have been a Paradise it would have been a living hell. The competition for vegetation would be so high it would have left the whole planet a desert. Animals with a high reproductive rates and high growth cycles would have exploded and overrun the planet. They would have literally crawled beneath our feet like a living carpet. The land and oceans would have filled should to shoulder, gill to fin, claw to hoof, the skies would be darkened with flying insects and birds. And we would have nowhere to swim in our waters, rivers, lakes, and ponds would be literally swimming in living animals not waters. Our reservoirs would be undrinkable full of collecting animal body waste.

I have explained and plenty of verses that provided evidence of a spiritual Resurrection already. I would hate to repeat myself all over again.

It's my understanding that not everything has life in a soul-like kind of way. Animals that have blood and skeletal structure I take to be animals with a soul but in addition humans are made in the image of God. That means we are to take dominion over the earth, to cultivate it when there is overgrowth, or maybe even assisting in spreading the population of animals so it is not overcrowded. I'm not insisting that bugs, insects and plants are to be immortal, then. Besides, the resurrection (physically) only pertains to people. Overgrowth is never an issue. When there is a need, it is our instinct as humans to solve the problem; we were designed to be problem solvers, innovators. And we see examples of that, of technological advancements to accommodate for feeding a larger number of people. We come up with more efficient housing and the earth is huge as you said, larger than what many knew in the ancient world. The earth was made to be inhabited. In your worldview, you say the world will continue the way things are ad infinitum. That's really the problem because things are breaking down and aren't made to last, or scientifically, the second law of thermodynamics. I think the earth was originally designed to last forever but after the fall the ground was cursed, kind of like the earth has an aging effect and is not made to last forever anymore. Not to be a climate alarmist or anything as I don't think it's going down as fast as they say it is.

 

[Ephesians321]

It's my understanding that not everything has life in a soul-like kind of way. Animals that have blood and skeletal structure I take to be animals with a soul but in addition humans are made in the image of God. That means we are to take dominion over the earth, to cultivate it when there is overgrowth, or maybe even assisting in spreading the population of animals so it is not overcrowded. I'm not insisting that bugs, insects and plants are to be immortal, then. Besides, the resurrection (physically) only pertains to people. Overgrowth is never an issue. When there is a need, it is our instinct as humans to solve the problem; we were designed to be problem solvers, innovators. And we see examples of that, of technological advancements to accommodate for feeding a larger number of people. We come up with more efficient housing and the earth is huge as you said, larger than what many knew in the ancient world. The earth was made to be inhabited. In your worldview, you say the world will continue the way things are ad infinitum. That's really the problem because things are breaking down and aren't made to last, or scientifically, the second law of thermodynamics. I think the earth was originally designed to last forever but after the fall the ground was cursed, kind of like the earth has an aging effect and is not made to last forever anymore. Not to be a climate alarmist or anything as I don't think it's going down as fast as they say it is.

We were mandated to be fruitful and multiple but nowhere in the text suggests that we were going to be permanent residents. Also, God is not going to destroy humanity again. Genesis 8:21. So, are we going to co-habitat the earth with mortal sinners or was the Resurrection spiritual in nature? Isaiah 65:17, 20, 23, 66:22-24

And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more EVERY LIVING THING, as I have done. Genesis 8:21

And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, And their offspring with them.“For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.“And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Isaiah 51:16; 65:17, 20, 23; 66:22-24; Rev. 21:1, 22-27, 22:2-5; Isaiah 9:7; Ephesians 3:21; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 22:30; 1 Corinthians 15:50; Luke 17:20; John 18:36; Hebrews 11:10,16, 12:28

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever. Ecclesiastes 1:4

 

[Ephesians321]

I re-edited my post a second time. Please check it out

 

[didactics]

We were mandated to be fruitful and multiple but nowhere in the text suggests that we were going to be permanent residents. Also, God is not going to destroy humanity again. Genesis 8:21. So, are we going to co-habitat the earth with mortal sinners or was the Resurrection spiritual in nature? Isaiah 65:17, 20, 23, 66:22-24

And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more EVERY LIVING THING, as I have done. Genesis 8:21

The judgement that's never to be repeated is flooding the whole earth. It is an interesting connection to see that God says he will never again curse the ground, but we know he had cursed the ground upon the first entrance of sin (Gen. 3:17). That tells me he means something else. My understanding is that he will not add to curse the ground any more, as drowning all the earth adds to the curse.

So, are we going to co-habitat the earth with mortal sinners or was the Resurrection spiritual in nature?

So, in the same vein, as he would not destroy the whole world again as promised, this cannot mean that he has changed his mind about setting all things new after the final judgment at the end of all things. The promise as I understand it is he will never destroy the world till the time of the end. We see an allusion to this when Christ speaks of the wicked being taken but the humble remain (see Mt 24:40-42).