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Is believing/faith a work ?

Blaise N

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The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:

  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

    The mind is :

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

    Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

    So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

    Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

    But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.
I wondered the same question,and my answe is no it’s not a work,It’s a gift and product of Gods Holy spirit working in the predestined elect.

We cannot in our sinful state choose faith.God calls us,and like he foreknew every saved person in history,chose us to believe,changing out heardened hearts to believe,which is a gift and working of the Holy Spirit.God starts the work,and he finishes it!

The books of Romans and Philippians explains it all.Salvarion is predestined by the Lord and he completes it.It’s not a cause for laziness or laxness in good works,which we are saved TO DO,NOT TO EARN,faith is not a work from US,but a work of the HOLY SPIRIT!
 
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Dan Perez

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I wondered the same question,and my answe is no it’s not a work,It’s a gift and product of Gods Holy spirit working in the predestined elect.

We cannot in our sinful state choose faith.God calls us,and like he foreknew every saved person in history,chose us to believe,changing out heardened hearts to believe,which is a gift and working of the Holy Spirit.God starts the work,and he finishes it!

The books of Romans and Philippians explains it all.Salvarion is predestined by the Lord and he completes it.It’s not a cause for laziness or laxness in good works,which we are saved TO DO,NOT TO EARN,faith is not a work from US,but a work of the HOLY SPIRIT!
I believe what Eph 2:8 says .. For by Grace are you SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , PERFECT TENSE and that means you are OSAS , and NOT /OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT mean NOT EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR , and do WATER BAPTISM NEEDED , EVER !!

dan p
 
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Brightfame52

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Not everyone is born again (Jn 3:3-5),
where the new birth is by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), and
where without the new birth, no one can even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5), must less believe in it.

And that new birth must come first before they believe and are saved.
I know everyone isnt going to be born again since Christ didnt die for everyone.
 
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Brightfame52

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@Blaise N
We cannot in our sinful state choose faith

Thats correct, however many disagree and feel they do and can choose saving faith from their unregenerate state, and so doing God saved them, thats works, that makes faith or believing a work
 
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Buzzard3

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Before a person is saved, they are dead in sin. Eph 2
You didn't answer my question. In a previous post, you stated this: "not until we are saved can we believe on Christ".

Which Scripture says we must be saved before we can believe in Christ?
 
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Brightfame52

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You didn't answer my question. In a previous post, you stated this: "not until we are saved can we believe on Christ".

Which Scripture says we must be saved before we can believe in Christ?
I know from the scripture that before saved men are dead in sin, lost. And as I have stated previously, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So a lost person cant believe the Gospel, its hidden from the lost, sorry
 
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Blaise N

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I believe what Eph 2:8 says .. For by Grace are you SAVED // SOZO is in the Greek , PERFECT TENSE and that means you are OSAS , and NOT /OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT mean NOT EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR , and do WATER BAPTISM NEEDED , EVER !!

dan p
I’m sorry,but is it possible you could explain that better,it’s kinda confusing
 
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Buzzard3

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James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous.
Effectively the same thing
James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18)
You forgot to mention the part where James 2 says "a man is justified... not by faith alone". If justified "not by faith alone", what else is required?

You also forgot to mention this part:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" Is a rhetorical question. James is saying faith without works doesn't save anyone.

And this part:
"faith" is "completed by works". Contrary to your claim that works are merely "evidence of faith", James says works are needed to complete faith.

And this part:
"faith without work is dead". James destroys your argument that works are merely "evidence of faith". James says, without works (obedience), you effectively have no faith at all. James reduces the doctrine of "saved by faith alone" to an absurdity ... ie, you're saved by "dead" faith.
and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
So when James 2:24 refers to being justified by faith, you're saying that's not the same justification by faith that Paul refers to in Romans 3:28?
 
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Clare73

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You forgot to mention the part where James 2 says "a man is justified... not by faith alone". If justified "not by faith alone", what else is required?
You also forgot to mention this part:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" Is a rhetorical question. James is saying faith without works doesn't save anyone.
Well done.

Yes, true faith must have works, and without works it is not true faith and cannot save.
But it is not the necessary works of that faith which save, only the faith itself, apart from its necessary works, actually saves (Eph 2:8-9).
And this part:
"faith is completed by works". Contrary to your claim that works are merely "evidence of faith", James says works are needed to complete faith.
Yes, faith without works is incomplete faith which is non-faith.
But it is not the works necessary to make faith complete which save, it is only the faith itself, apart from its necessary works for completion, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).
And this part:
"faith without work is dead". James destroys your argument that works are merely "evidence of faith". James says, without works (obedience), you effectively have no faith at all.
Yes, without works there is no true faith.
But it is not the works necessary to make it a living faith which save, it is only the faith itself, apart from its necessary works to make it living, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).
James reduces the doctrine of "saved by faith alone" to an absurdity ... ie, you're saved by "dead" faith.
Not when correctly understood in the light of the rest of the NT, which is how all Scripture must be understood to be a correct understanding.
So when James 2:24 refers to being justified by faith, you're saying that's not the same justification by faith that Paul refers to in Romans 3:28?
So moving from the meaning of true "faith," to the meaning of "justification,"
in both Paul and James it is the same word, "justification", which has two meanings:
1) accounted/imputed as (righteous) = Paul,
2) shown to be (righteous) = James.
 
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Buzzard3

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Well done.

Yes, true faith must have works, and without works it is not true faith and cannot save.
But it is not the necessary works of that faith which save, it is only the faith itself, apart from its necessary works, which saves (Eph 2:8-9).
If, as you correctly say, "faith ... without works ... cannot save", why do then argue that "it is only the faith itself ... which saves"? You're contradicting yourself. All you need to know is the first part - "faith ... without works ... cannot save".

And you seriously misunderstand Eph 2:8-9 ... it says faith is necessary for salvation and that works alone don't save. It doesn't say faith alone saves and it doesn't say works are irrelevant to salvation.
 
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Clare73

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If, as you correctly say, "faith ... without works ... cannot save", why do then argue that "it is only the faith itself ... which saves"? You're contradicting yourself. All you need to know is the first part - "faith ... without works ... cannot save".
Because faith without works cannot be true faith and, therefore, cannot save.

Works are the result of true faith, not the cause of it.
Being the result of true faith, "no works" simply demonstrate there is "no true faith,"
"No true faith" means no salvation.

Salvation is not about works, salvation is about faith, apart from its resulting works.
It is only the faith that saves, not faith's resulting works.

". . .you have been saved through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)
And you seriously misunderstand Eph 2:8-9 ... it says faith is necessary for salvation and that works alone don't save. It doesn't say faith alone saves and it doesn't say works are irrelevant to salvation.
It simply says "it is by grace you have been saved through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9).

One gets to decide whether to believe it or not. . .I do.
 
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Buzzard3

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Not when correctly understood in the light of the rest of the NT, which is how all Scripture must be understood to be a correct understanding.
You should try reading the rest of the NT sometime ...

James obviously doesn't preach salvation thru faith alone, and neither does Paul - for example,
he warns believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11 that their sins (works of disobedience) can result in them ending up in hell.
In 1Cor 13:2, Paul says his faith is nothing without love (works) ... a few verse later (v.13), he says love (works) is greater than faith.
In Romans 2:5-8, Paul says God will judge "every man" according to their "deeds" (works) ... and "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (v.13).



John doesn't preach salvation thru faith alone either. In 1John 2:3-6, he says a believer who disobey God's commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth is not in him".
In Rev 14:12 (and Rev 12:17), he describes "the saints" as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".


And neither does Jesus preach salvation thru faith alone. In Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven churches according to their "works", promises eternal life to any believer who "overcomes" his sinful works and declares certain believers "worthy" of eternal life according to their works (Rev 3:4-5).
In Matt 25, Jesus judges the nations according to their works.
 
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Clare73

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You should try reading the rest of the NT sometime ...

James obviously doesn't preach salvation thru faith alone, and neither does Paul - for example,
he warns believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11 that their sins (works of disobedience) can result in them ending up in hell.
Apply the principle: "faith without works is not true faith;" e.g.,

works of disobedience are not the works of faith, and no works of faith demonstrate no faith which saves.
In 1Cor 13:2, Paul says his faith is nothing without love (works) ... a few verse later (v.13), he says love (works) is greater than faith.
In Romans 2:5-8, Paul says God will judge "every man" according to their "deeds" (works) ... and "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (v.13).
And what is the context of Ro 1:18-3:8?
It is the unrighteousness of all mankind, Gentile (Ro 1:18-32), as well as Jew (Ro 2:1-3:8), where only perfect law keeping (doers of the law) will justify one, which no one can do. (Ro 3:10), so there is no righteousness/salvation by law keeping.
John doesn't preach salvation thru faith alone either. In 1John 2:3-6, he says a believer who disobey God's commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth is not in him".
There you have it. . .the saved do "know" Christ.
Works of disobedience are works of unbelief, which unbelief does not save.
Disobedience is not faith, disobedience is unbelief; in fact, they are the same words in the Greek: apeitheo.
Just as faith and obedience are the same words in the Greek: peitheo.
In Rev 14:12 (and Rev 12:17), he describes "the saints" as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".
The commandments of God being love of God and neighbor as self (Mt 22:37-40, Ro 13:8), where loving does not do those things forbidden in the commandments (Ro 13:8-10).
And neither does Jesus preach salvation thru faith alone.
Try Jn 3:18, Jn 3:36.
In Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus judges the seven churches according to their "works",promises eternal life to any believer who "overcomes" his sinful works and declares certain believers "worthy" of eternal life according to their works (Rev 3:4-5).In Matt 25, Jesus judges the nations according to their works, promises eternal life to any believer who "overcomes" his sinful works and declares certain believers "worthy" of eternal life according to their works (Rev 3:4-5).
Our works reveal our faith, for works are the result of faith which saves.
Works of evil or no works reveal no faith which saves.
 
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Danthemailman

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Effectively the same thing
Accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works (James 2:21,24) are not effectively the same thing. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

You forgot to mention the part where James 2 says "a man is justified... not by faith alone". If justified "not by faith alone", what else is required?
I did not forget. I said a man is justified (shown to be righteousness--in context) by works and not by a bare profession of faith, which is what James means by "faith alone." Not to be confused with what Paul means by salvation through faith in Christ alone "apart from works." (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) James is not describing authentic faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) Hence, 'faith alone' or 'faith only' in James 2. Says/claims to have faith but he has no works (to evidence his claim).

You also forgot to mention this part:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" Is a rhetorical question. James is saying faith without works doesn't save anyone.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

And this part:
"faith" is "completed by works". Contrary to your claim that works are merely "evidence of faith", James says works are needed to complete faith.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

And this part:
"faith without work is dead". James destroys your argument that works are merely "evidence of faith". James says, without works (obedience), you effectively have no faith at all. James reduces the doctrine of "saved by faith alone" to an absurdity ... ie, you're saved by "dead" faith.
Your misinterpretation of James 2:20 does not destroy my argument at all and "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith (or that we are saved by works). That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

So, when James 2:24 refers to being justified by faith, you're saying that's not the same justification by faith that Paul refers to in Romans 3:28?
Absolutely! Otherwise, that would contradict Romans 4:2-3. For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
 
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Buzzard3

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Accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6)
It's referring to works alone - ie, works done without fait. It's not referring to works done with faith.
and shown to be righteous by works (James 2:21,24) are not effectively the same thing.
Whatever. All you have to know is this: Faith without works is dead (James 2:26), and dead faith doesn't save anyone.
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
Works in this context are obedience. Are we justified by obeying God? Of course we are. Are we justified by faith if we disobey God? Of course not ... why would God want to spend eternity with someone who isn't interested in obeying him?

One can have faith and still disobey God. Faith alone is not enough.
 
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Buzzard3

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"faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith (or that we are saved by works).
I don't recall claiming that "faith is dead until it produces works".
Salvation and justification begin with faith alone (Romans 3:28, Eph 2:8-9), but if the believer goes on to lead of life without works - ie, a life of disobedience, sin and evil - his faith is useless and as good as dead.
Hence, James says no one is justified (saved) by "faith alone" (James 2:24). Paul implies the same thing in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, when he warns believers that their sins can result in them ending up in hell.
That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19)
 
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Receivedgrace

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It doesnt matter what James 2:24 means, Jesus is the Saviour, He saves by His Work, you deny that ?
Of course it matters. Every word of God matters. 2Tim 3:15-18
 
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Buzzard3

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Accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works (James 2:21,24) are not effectively the same thing. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.


I did not forget. I said a man is justified (shown to be righteousness--in context) by works and not by a bare profession of faith, which is what James means by "faith alone." Not to be confused with what Paul means by salvation through faith in Christ alone "apart from works." (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) James is not describing authentic faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) Hence, 'faith alone' or 'faith only' in James 2. Says/claims to have faith but he has no works (to evidence his claim).


In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!


In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.


Your misinterpretation of James 2:20 does not destroy my argument at all and "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith (or that we are saved by works). That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)


Absolutely! Otherwise, that would contradict Romans 4:2-3. For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
I get the message: Since James 2:24 plainly contradicts the doctrine of sola fide, the solution is to invent a nonsense interpretation of James 2:24 that supposedly renders it harmless - manifest delusion, in other words.

If a doctrine is clearly contradicted by Scripture, wouldn't it be more sensible to abandon that doctrine and develop a doctrine that isn't contradicted by Scripture?
 
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Buzzard3

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Of course it matters. Every word of God matters. 2Tim 3:15-18
Scripture matters to some folks only when it tickles their fancy. It's a sure-fire recipe for rubbish theology.
 
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