Is believing/faith a work ?

[Doug Brents]

No one is saved until Christ declares them saved on Judgement Day.

In one manner of speaking, yes. But we can know that we are saved now, if we have obeyed the Gospel (1 John 5:13, Eph 1:13-14). We can know that we have been (past tense, at the instant of our baptism), and that we will be (future sense, at Judgement), and that we are now (present tense, right now at all times) saved.

 

[Buzzard3]

Actually, those are the two meanings of the same Greek word dikaiosis.

Then you aren't understanding Ro 3:28 in the light of and agreeing with all the NT.

I understand that Romans doesn't say we're saved by faith alone and neither does any other verse in the NT.
I also understand that the NT teaches salvation through faith and obedience (works), as is obvious from verses such as James 2:24-26, 1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, Phil 2:12, Heb 12:14, 1John 5:16, 1Peter 1:14-17 and 1John 2:3-6.

 

[Buzzard3]

But we can know that we are saved now, if we have obeyed the Gospel ... 1John 5:13

If you can be certain of your salvation now, why is salvation described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? Hope is not certainty.

What Does the Bible Say About Hope In Salvation?

Bible verses about Hope In Salvation

www.openbible.info

 

[Clare73]

I understand that Romans doesn't say we're saved by faith alone and neither does any other verse in the NT.

Eph 2:8-9 states that "we are saved by grace, through faith. . .not by works," and is often referred to as "faith alone."

Ro 3:28 states that "we are justified (dikaiosis, declared forensically righteous) by faith, apart from works (observing the law)."

"Faith alone" is used to mean "not by works" and "apart from observing the law."

I also understand that the NT teaches salvation through faith and obedience (works), as is obvious from verses such as James 2:24-26,

Jas 2:24-26 is about justification/righteousness, which is by faith, apart from works (observing the law). (Ro 3:28).

James uses the word "justify" to mean "prove to be true." (Jas 2:24)
As in, "Her fear was justified when he killed her dog.
Likewise, his faith, which alone saved him, proved to be true faith by his works.

Paul uses the word "justify" to mean "declared not guilty," in right standing with God's Court -- Greek definition of "justification" (dikaiosis).
As in, "Justification is by faith, apart from works (of observing the law). (Ro 3:28)
Likewise, the believer is justified (declared "not guilty") by faith alone.

True faith must have works, but it is not the works of that faith which save, it is the faith apart from its works which saves.

1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, Phil 2:12, Heb 12:14, 1John 5:16, 1Peter 1:14-17 and 1John 2:3-6.

Works in the NT are not the cause of salvation, they are the results of that salvation "through faith, not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

They being the result of salvation, if one has no works, then one is not saved.

 

[Danthemailman]

James uses the word "justify" to mean "prove to be true." (Jas 2:24)
As in, "Her fear was justified when he killed her dog."
Likewise, his faith which alone saved him proved to be true faith by his works.

Paul uses the word "justify" to mean "declared not guilty," in right standing with God's Court -- Greek definition of "justification" (dikaiosis).
As in, "Justification is by faith, apart from works (of observing the law). (Ro 3:28)
Likewise, the believer is justified (declared "not guilty") by faith alone.

True faith must have works, but it is not the works of that faith which save, it is the faith apart from its works which saves.

Amen! James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context of James 2:24.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[Danthemailman]

If you can be certain of your salvation now, why is salvation described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? Hope is not certainty.

What Does the Bible Say About Hope In Salvation?

Bible verses about Hope In Salvation

www.openbible.info

Biblical hope is certainly not some cross your fingers hope I win the lottery kind of hope. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7) Praise God!

 

[Buzzard3]

Biblical hope is certainly not some cross your fingers hope I win the lottery kind of hope.

I never said it was. It's more like hoping to pass an exam that you've studied for - you can be confident of passing, but uncertanty remains. The "exam" in this case is being judged by Christ after you die.

Not even Paul was certain of his salvation, because he knew that depended on the judgement of Christ:

"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:4-5)

Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain

Your argument doesn't add up. If it meant certainty, no Bible would repeatedly translate it as "hope" in at least twenty NT verses.
The hope is certain, bcoz it's based on God's promise, but that doesnt mean "hope" in those verses means certainty. God’s promise is conditional - if you don't meet the conditions, the promise becomes null and void. And you don't decide if you've meet the conditions or not - Christ does.

If a doctrine requires twisting the plain meaning of words to make it "fit", you know that doctrine is false.


There's no mention of "certainty" in either of the following translations of elpis ("hope"):

Strong's #1680: elpis (pronounced el-pece')
from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:--faith, hope.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
elpis
1) expectation of evil, fear
2) expectation of good, hope
2a) in the Christian sense
2a1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3) on hope, in hope, having hope
3a) the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
3b) the thing hoped for

Relation: from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure)

 

[Doug Brents]

If you can be certain of your salvation now, why is salvation described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? Hope is not certainty.

What Does the Bible Say About Hope In Salvation?

Bible verses about Hope In Salvation

www.openbible.info

You want that new (whatever) for Christmas, and you know you parents told you they got it for you, but until you open it on Christmas it is still hope that you have, even though you know that they got it for you. You still have hope because you are not in possession of it yet, even though you know it will be yours when it comes time to open the gifts on Christmas morning.

Same thing with salvation. We know that we have it, we are certain of it in the Lord who we know never lies or fails in His promises. Yet we are not in possession of it yet, so we still hope for that Day when we receive it.

 

[Buzzard3]

James uses the word "justify" to mean "prove to be true." (Jas 2:24)
As in, "Her fear was justified when he killed her dog."
Likewise, his faith which alone saved him proved to be true faith by his works.

Paul uses the word "justify" to mean "declared not guilty," in right standing with God's Court -- Greek definition of "justification" (dikaiosis).
As in, "Justification is by faith, apart from works (of observing the law). (Ro 3:28)
Likewise, the believer is justified (declared "not guilty") by faith alone.

How did you arrive at two different meanings for the same word, "justified"?

Why does "justified" mean "prove to be true" in James 2:24, but means "declared not guilty" in Romans 3:28?

 

[Clare73]

How did you arrive at two different meanings for the same word, "justified"?

Those are the two meanings of "justify" in both Greek and English:
1) to vindicate (to support or maintain as correct)--->works proved Abraham's faith was genuine, as in Ja 2:24,
2) to pronounce free from guilt, to absolve--->forensic righteousness, imputed through faith apart from works, as in Paul (Ro 3:28).

Why does "justified" mean "prove to be true" in James 2:24, but means "declared not guilty" in Romans 3:28?

Because the word of God does not contradict itself, and to interpret 'justify" with the same meaning in both is to set it in contradiction.

 

[Buzzard3]

Because the word of God does not contradict itself, and to interpret 'justify" with the same meaning in both is to set it in contradiction.

Thank you for vindicating my suspicions. You actually admit to assigning meaning to words according to your preferred doctrine ... wow. Fascinating.

 

[Buzzard3]

Those are the two meanings of "justify" in both Greek and English:
1) to vindicate (to support or maintain as correct)--->works proved Abraham's faith was genuine, as in Ja 2:24,
2) to pronounce free from guilt, to absolve--->forensic righteousness, imputed through faith apart from works, as in Paul (Ro 3:28).

The word "justified" in James 2:24 ("a man is justified by works and not by faith alone") is applied to both "works" and "faith" in that sentence.
Do you realise that you've assigned one meaning to "justified" by faith in Romans 3:28, and a different meaning to "justified" by faith in James 2:24?

 

[Margaret3110]

The word "justified" in James 2:24 ("a man is justified by works and not by faith alone") refers to both works and faith in that sentence.
Do you realise that you've assigned one meaning to "justified" by faith in Romans 3:28, and a different meaning to "justified" by faith in James 2:24?

Because she is reading each instance of the word in the whole context of what the author is saying and how they are using it. The same word can mean different things in different contexts.

 

[Buzzard3]

Those are the two meanings of "justify" in both Greek and English:
1) ... --->works proved Abraham's faith was genuine, as in Ja 2:24,

That meaning you've offered for "justified" in James 2:24 is false; an invention designed to accomodate a false doctrine.

"In Christian theology, justification is the event or process by which sinners are made or declared to be righteous in the sight of God." (Wikipedia)

 

[Buzzard3]

Because she is reading each instance of the word in the whole context of what the author is saying and how they are using it.

You mean, she is reading each instance of the word in the whole context of what she wants the author to say and how she wants them to use iI.

 

[Buzzard3]

The same word can mean different things in different contexts

She using two different meanings for "justified" in the SAME context - "justified" by faith in Romans 3:28 and "justified" by faith in James 2:24.

Patent nonsense.

 

[Margaret3110]

You mean, she is reading each instance of the word in the whole context of what she wants the author to say and how she wants them to use iI.

No .... it's like the term "son of man" has different usages throughout the Bible. Ezekiel uses it one way, Daniel uses it another. Then Jesus uses it and it acquires new implications in addition to the previous ones.

 

[Danthemailman]

She using two different meanings for "justified" in the SAME context - "justified" by faith in Romans 3:28 and "justified" by faith in James 2:24.

Patent nonsense.

There are two different meanings for the term "justified." In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - (fits the context of James 2:24.)
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) so it's not nonsense. A man is justified (shown to be righteousness--in context) by works and not by a bare profession of faith.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Again, James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Clare73]

Thank you for vindicating my suspicions. You actually admit to assigning meaning to words according to your preferred doctrine ... wow. Fascinating.

I didn't' "assign" that meaning to "justify," it is the meaning of "justify."

And I interpret the NT in the context of, and in agreement with, all the NT, for that is the only way the word of God is correctly understood, and not by setting God against himself. How sad when one disagrees with the self-evident for the sake of their preferred doctrine ... wow.
And not fascinating.

So I await your demonstration of their reconciliation.

Until you can demonstrate that the truth of Scripture can contradict itself, it is your preferred doctrine that causes contradiction.
Nor do I find the contradictions of heresy fascinating.

 

[Clare73]

That meaning you've offered for "justified" in James 2:24 is false; an invention designed to accomodate a false doctrine.

"In Christian theology, justification is the event or process by which sinners are made or declared to be righteous in the sight of God." (Wikipedia)

Agreed. . .and is what I stated.