Hamas-Israel News Thread

[rjs330]

Less than 15% of Palestinians alive today voted Hamas into power. Palestinians are being exploited by Hamas and are often victims of their crimes. Hamas living in their midst doesn't make the Palestinians guilty of the actions of Hamas.

Oh come on. Where on earth did you get that figure. 2006 was less than 20 years ago. Are you trying to say that 85% of voters have died in the last 20 years?

And the populace has done nothing to get rid of Hamas. In fact you could say the Jew hatred has increased the last 20 years. The education and media system in the area is radically anti-Semetic with the education if the children to hate and murder Jews.

 

[rjs330]

The group that has bigger guns needs to have also a bigger responsibility. The guns are mostly from their international allies, anyway. They cannot use it in a barbaric, furious ethnic cleansing way.

Who knows, if instead of tearing Palestinian houses down and building luxurious Jewish settlements in their place, helping them would not bring more peace than the spiral of brutal revenge for the action of some.

Who says they have a greater responsibility. To do what exactly? Die? That's your ultimate outcome. The Jews should not do what they can to help protect their own soldiers when they go in on the ground. We should just send in the soldiers to die because we have a greater responsibility? What kind of nonsense is this? Israel TOLD people to get out. Hamas TOLD people to stay. And they blockaded the roads so people couldn't get out.

Ethnic cleansing? If there really was ethnic cleansing they would have bothered even trying to warn people. That's what Hamas does. They do the ethnic cleansing. As I have said there is no moral equivalence here.

You do know that Israel evacuated 5000 Jews out of the settlements and turned them over to the Palestinians right?

 

[JosephZ]

Oh come on. Where on earth did you get that figure. 2006 was less than 20 years ago. Are you trying to say that 85% of voters have died in the last 20 years?

The less than 15% is being generous, it's probably closer to 10%. 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today are under the age of 30. Anyone under the age of 35 were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote.

 

[JosephZ]

Israel and the world have tried to create a two state solution, but every time the Arabs reject it. Why?

The Arabs of Palestine Said No to the Jewish Right of Return

What confusion would ensue all the world over if this principle on which the Jews base their "legitimate" claim were carried out in other parts of the world! What migrations of nations must follow! The Spaniards in Spain would have to make room for the Arabs and Moors who conquered and ruled their country for over 700 years…

— Palestine Arab Delegation, Observations on the High Commissioner's Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine during the period 1st July 1920 – 30th June 1921

The Palestinian Arabs Said No to Equating National Consciousness with Land Rights

There is not a single Arab who has not been hurt by the entry of Jews into Palestine: there is not a single Arab who does not see himself as part of the Arab race… In his eyes, Palestine is an independent unit.

— Moshe Shertok, Speech MAPAI Central Committee, June 9th 1936


They Said No to the Notion That Palestine Was Desolate and Empty

In our lovely country there exists an entire people who have held it for centuries and to whom it would never occur to leave…The time has come to dispel the misconception among Zionists that land in Palestine lies uncultivated for lack of working hands or the laziness of the local residents. There are no deserted fields.
— Yitzhak Epstein, "The Hidden Question," 1907

They Said No to the Exchange of Political for Economic Rights

You say my house has been enriched by the strangers who have entered it. But it is my house, and I did not invite the strangers in, or ask them to enrich it, and I do not care how poor or bare it is if only I am master in it.

—1937 Royal Commission Report, paraphrasing the remarks of an Arab witness

The Arabs Said No to the Jewish Settlement Enterprise

Land is the most necessary thing for our establishing roots in Palestine. Since there are hardly any more arable unsettled lands in Palestine, we are bound in each case of the purchase of land and its settlements to remove the peasants who cultivated the land so far, both owners of the land and tenants.
—Arthur Ruppin, 1930

They Said No to the Reneging on Promises, and They Said No to the Incongruity Enshrined in the 1917 Balfour Declaration

There is not one nation in the world that would accept voluntarily and of its own desire that its position should be changed in a manner which will have an effect on its rights and prejudice its interests … We as a nation are human beings with our own culture and civilization and we feel as any other nation would feel. It will have to be imposed on us by force.

— Awni Abd al-Hadi, Testimony to Royal Peel Commission, 1937


Finally, the Palestinian Arabs Said No to the "Generous Offers" of Partition, Made by the Royal Palestine (Peel) Commission in 1937 and the UN in 1947.

This opposition [to partition] is based upon the unwavering conviction of unshakeable rights and a conviction of the injustice of forcing a long-settled population to accept immigrants without its consent being asked and against its known and expressed will; the injustice of turning a majority into a minority in its own country; the injustice of withholding self-government until the Zionists are in the majority and able to profit by it.

— Albert Hourani, Statement to the Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry, 1946

The Original “No”: Why the Arabs Rejected Zionism, and Why It Matters - Middle East Policy Council

Natasha Gill Natasha Gill is the founder and director of TRACK4, which runs negotiation simulations for mediators, diplomats, journalists, policy makers, students and people directly involved in conflict. A viable peace process does not require either party to embrace or even recognize the...

mepc.org

 

[wing2000]

The less than 15% is being generous, it's probably closer to 10%. 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today are under the age of 30. Anyone under the age of 35 were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote.

To assume (as many commenting here do) that Palestinians could have simply kicked Hamas out of Gaza over the last 10-15 years is an incredibility naive and uninformed position.

 

[Chesterton]

Whats the point youre trying to make with this?

I guess it's that politics makes strange bedfellows, and the politics-of-hate make even stranger.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The less than 15% is being generous, it's probably closer to 10%. 70% of Palestinians in Gaza today are under the age of 30. Anyone under the age of 35 were either not born yet or were too young to vote when the 2006 election was held. When Hamas did win in 2006, it won with just 44% of the vote.

What Pro Palestinian group - anywhere globally is actively calling for the removal of Hamas? Better yet - what current Pro Palestinians groups anywhere on Earth are openly condemning Hamas for killing 1,400 innocent victims.

 

[truthpls]

Amazing that Wiki calls this a terrorist attack, when 1) it was a military target and 2) the military men in the hotel were warned of the bombing beforehand.

So with a warning no one died? Or maybe the warning never got through to all? Or..?
" It is often stated that the British authorities have always denied that a warning was sent. However, what the British Government said, five months after the bombing, once the subsequent inquest and all the inquiries had been completed, was not that no warning had been sent, but that no such warning had been received by anyone at the Secretariat "in an official position with any power to take action."[10] Begin directly accused Chief Secretary of the Palestine Mandate, John Shaw, of ignoring the warning. Shaw strongly denied having received it.[19]"

So would I believe a military man strongly denying something or terrorists that said they gave warning? My general rules is not to believe mass murderers.

It should be no surprise that wiki called it terrorism. The Prime Minister of England also did.

"Hon. Members will have learned with horror of the brutal and murderous crime committed yesterday in Jerusalem. Of all the outrages which have occurred in Palestine, and they have been many and horrible in the last few months, this is the worst. By this insane act of terrorism 93 innocent people have been killed or are missing in the ruins. The latest figures of casualties are 41 dead, 52 missing and 53 injured. I have no further information at present beyond what is contained in the following official report received from Jerusalem"

"Irgun's choice of bombing the King David Hotel's south wing housing the civilian Secretariat, rather than the central block of the hotel housing the Military HQ , was q direct response to Operation Agatha."

History of the Palestine Police during the British Mandate - Bombing of the King David Hotel

Bombing of the King David Hotel

britishpalestinepolice.org.uk

Also amazing and humorous - Nazi Germany was right-wing, and best remembered for hating Jews. The alt.right is right-wing, and best known for hating Jews. Yet Jews can also be right-wing. I guess right-wing just translates to "the bad guys". Clown World.

Regardless of what 'wing' you imagine people to be in, the mass killings of civilians in Gaza is evil

 

[truthpls]

They could have had their own water supply. It is just one excuse after another. They want to Destroy an entire nation. You are helping to ensure that the people they use, will continue to be used.

Rather than spew hatred for the people, I would suggest letting them drink

 

[durangodawood]

I guess it's that politics makes strange bedfellows, and the politics-of-hate make even stranger.

Is that supposed to lead us to accept your original idea that "right wing Jews" is an absurd notion? Because I don't think it does. Obviously there's Jews of all persuasions. The right wing is currently gaining traction in Israel. But there's plenty of moderates and lefties there too.

 

[trophy33]

Are your forgetting that Israel has tried that? But Everytime it's rejected?

Can you post a link for the 1948 plan to be rejected "everytime"? Also, who is "Israel"? Many Jews, including influential, do not want two states solution, too. The whole situation is forced and unnatural from the beginning.

 

[Chesterton]

Is that supposed to lead us to accept your original idea that "right wing Jews" is an absurd notion? Because I don't think it does. Obviously there's Jews of all persuasions. The right wing is currently gaining traction in Israel. But there's plenty of moderates and lefties there too.

My actual point was that "right" or "right wing" is always (at least in America) almost a slur thrown at people to portray them as something like Nazis. So Jewish Nazis is quite a novel idea.

 

[trophy33]

Those who are behind the attack are in tunnels under apartment buildings and headquartered in Hospitals and schools.

What do you suggest Israel does?

I do not know. Thats for military strategists to find out. But not bombing civilians, not driving million of people out of their homes in 24 hours etc.

 

[Vanellus]

Do we have 8000 Palestinians dead now? According to whom?

There wouldn't be any if they wouldn't have voted in Hamas, given them access to Gaza, hadn't attacked Israel and if Hamas would surrender. If Hamas was using them as human shields. Who's fault is all of this?

How many Palestinians have to die in order for Hamas to give up? How many do they have to kill before they say enough?

This is what happens when you declaire war on another country. It's not pretty is it.

Many Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by the IDF and Jewish settlers (2657 + 83) since the 2nd intifada until Oct 6th. Hamas does not rule the West Bank. It is Israel's bombardment that is killing Gazans. This "war" i.e. conflict started in 1948 if not before.
Database on fatalities and house demolitions

It's clearly illegal to kill civilians for merely voting in a particular way.

 

[durangodawood]

My actual point was that "right" or "right wing" is always (at least in America) almost a slur thrown at people to portray them as something like Nazis. So Jewish Nazis is quite a novel idea.

Logic went off the rails there.

Right wing includes Nazis - among many other flavors of right side thinking. It doesn't mean you are a Nazi any more than leftie means youre a "communist!"

Parts of the current governing coalition in Israel are absolutely right wing - and thats a perfectly non controversial thing to say.

 

[trophy33]

Who says they have a greater responsibility. To do what exactly?

To limit civilian casualties and suffering. Its easier with modern weapons, satellite images and better trained army.

 

[Chesterton]

Logic went off the rails there.

Right wing includes Nazis - among many other flavors of right side thinking. It doesn't mean you are a Nazi any more than leftie means youre a "communist!"

Parts of the current governing coalition in Israel are absolutely right wing - and thats a perfectly non controversial thing to say.

Right wing includes Nazis because that's what you've been erroneously taught. The Nazis were Socialists.

Right = right. Left = sinister. Look it up.

 

[dzheremi]

So Jewish Nazis is quite a novel idea.

Not to those currently being liquidated by them in an act of collective punishment. The IDF may not wear the Nazi uniform, but you can bet if the situations were reversed and it was Israelis who had to deal with an actual army of Palestinians with tanks and fighter planes (supplied by their ever-supportive friends in the most militarily and technologically advanced countries in the world, either directly or through 'defense' aid) pushing into Israeli neighborhoods on a supposed terrorist-hunt that just happens to destroy the lives of civilians along the way (oops!), it would be presented by pro-Israel media in terms that would befit the Nazi atrocities of the Holocaust.

 

[Vanellus]

Yes I think the Palestinians have done a terrible job of hiding their racism against the Jews.

Do you think Gaza should be levelled with nuclear weapons as this Likud lawmaker does?
Israeli Lawmaker Calls for “Doomsday Weapon” to “Level Gaza Without Mercy” - The New American

 

[wing2000]

Israeli ground forces are approaching Gaza City:

Moving quickly overnight, Israeli tanks and soldiers entered the outskirts of Gaza City on Monday, reaching the main highway that goes north and south through the 25-mile-long enclave. The forces were so close to the city that those ground troops called in airstrikes on Hamas targets.

A string of incidents Monday shows evidence of the deepest penetration of Gaza by Israeli ground forces since they began incursions three days ago, as a relentless bombing campaign continues, with the military confirming that combined infantry, armor and engineering forces are all inside Gaza’s borders.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/30/israel-gaza-ground-incursion-tanks/