How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[Divide]

"Keep" does not mean remove from the earth. It means guard over in the Greek.

Keep can mean to guard over on earth or not on earth. He can guard His Bride in Heaven and that would be an appropriate use of the word also.

Or do you let the kids stay out all night and simply guard them from the window? No, of course not. Come home kids, time to come home. To a place He has prepared for us...

This is another example where we have to take words back. The Greek word for "air" in the verses used for a rapture is not the word for sky or elevation in those verses in 1st Thes 4. That's another word entirely. The word for air in 1st Thes 4 17 means the air we breath in.

I seem to be missing your point. If we're caught up to Him in the air...why isnt that the same air that we breath in our atmosphere?

It's easy to miss it. I didn't see it until I had read it 4K times, lol.

 

[truthpls]

The point is THAT DAY has to be associated with the context as written,

Anything IN that day is associated with it

if its speaking about Israel's repentance then that day is not the same day as the DOTL (of course),

Unless the day of the Lord is a period of time that includes that..which it is

Sometimes in prophecy we do get these instances when things are spoken about in regards to that day, but it still happens before that day actually comes, but that looming specter causes the repentance, like like in Zech. 13:6-7 that's about Jesus' death, but its placed in with an end time chapter.

Unless it is talking about in that day.

Mmmm, its Moses (imho) and Elijah come again, lol, come on.

Lots of guesses on that one. Yours could be right. Or not. No sense being dogmatic on speculation

You do understand they will talk to a receptive peoples in need, who see what is coming right? Also, the Pre Trib Rapture has come and gone, we do not just fly off to heaven, when the rapture happens those of us alive will "change" which means our spirit man goes to be with the Lord,

Nope. It means that we go up in the air and receive a body like His. Physical and spiritual. Spirits from heaven of dead believers return with Jesus in the air to also have their old bodies raised to have their physical and spiritual body like Jesus also.

its another way of saying we leave our sin flesh bodies behind, which are corrupt and can not enter heaven.

No, it is a way of saying we get new eternal bodies. Like trading an old car for a new one

In other words we die and go to be with the Lord.

No. We are alive and go up to meet Him where we get eternal bodies and are still alive.

There will be a billion plus dead bodies on this earth all at one time. The Jews understand they were all Christians.

Then they understand wrong. What else is new?

The Two-witnesses have one job, reading Rev. 11:1-3 carefully shows that these "measurements" John is taking is the Two-witnesses parameters unto their calling, they are to seek the save only the Jews who pray at the altar, not the Gentiles who are in the outer court.

Well since tons of people of every sort are saved also who preaches to them?
It is no use going over every point when all that is wrong is the basics. We will disagree on the basics, which means all scenarios predicated upon a wrong foundation will lead to a faulty house build up on it.

 

[truthpls]

No, those who repented are protected for 1260 days, see Rev. 12.

I saw it. Yet the time is FROM when we see the AOD. Daniel spelled that out

Yes, I enjoy the wicked men being condemned.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Been called unto Prophecy 40 years, I will not in like mind dis you, but I will just say you are way behind my data set on this brother. And that's OK. Its my calling after all.

Yet you wasted 40 years because you are not even out in left field but lost in space.

 

[Fisherking]

Unless the day of the Lord is a period of time that includes that..which it is

No, Zech. 13:8-9 shows Israel repents THEN the DOTL arrives one vs. later. The DOTL lasts 1260 days. The time of Jacobs troubles, as shown in Dan. 12:7 by Jesus (Man in Linen) is a Time, times and 1/2 [time]. That is why in Rev. 12 John gives up both a Time, times and 1/2 time and 1260 days to let us know this.

Lots of guesses on that one. Yours could be right. Or not. No sense being dogmatic on speculation

That wasn't the overall point, even if its Elijah and Elisha they will still get the job done, they have been given all power and authority to do so. I think its Moses and Elijah because of the disfiguration on the Mt.

Nope. It means that we go up in the air and receive a body like His. Physical and spiritual. Spirits from heaven of dead believers return with Jesus in the air to also have their old bodies raised to have their physical and spiritual body like Jesus also.

Thats just a myth, it is not factual, dead people already in heaven return to get a body, come on.

Reread 1 Cor 15, the reason the dead are raised uncorruptible is they have no sin flesh, but vs. 1 Cor. 15:44 tells us the dead are raised as Spirit Men. Pssstt, John and Paul traveled to heaven without their bodies, Satan and his demons live n the 2nd heaven and on earth, with no bodies, we do not have to get a body to travel to heaven, we get our glorious bodies as a reward in heaven. Flesh and blood can not enter heaven. You guys assume stuff (I know, I believed this same thing for 30 years) and men's traditions take hold.

No, it is a way of saying we get new eternal bodies. Like trading an old car for a new one

In heaven, in a flash we will be there, all this saying we get a body on the way is just wrong think.

No. We are alive and go up to meet Him where we get eternal bodies and are still alive.

Our Spirit Man is alive, our sin flesh will not go to heaven, you do not understand how to read 1 Cor. 15. What do you think gets CHANGED in the blink of an eye and why? In vs. 50 it says flesh and blood can not enter heaven, ten in 51 we are CHANGED, and then we are like the dead raised as SPIRIT MEN, just go read 1 Cor. 15:44, we are raised as Spirit Men.

Then they understand wrong. What else is new?

No, they understand it after it happens. Read closer brother.

It is no use going over every point when all that is wrong is the basics. We will disagree on the basics, which means all scenarios predicated upon a wrong foundation will lead to a faulty house build up on it.

Do me a favor and quit contradicting yourself, you go from you aren't clear enough to what is essentially I am too busy to read so I will make an excuse. If you are not going to read then just don't ask fir more clarity, or just don't reply.

Yet you wasted 40 years because you are not even out in left field but lost in space.

There you go, the true you comes out.

 

[AYM]

@truthpls

There is a gathering in the air of all believers that most people call the Rapture. Believers are not appointed to the wrath of God so we leave before the last seven years begin. We return from heaven with Jesus at the end of those seven years where His angels gather tribulation believers from the 4 corners of the earth also to be with Him. Most people call that the return to earth of Jesus.

Where's there scriptures for this?

The Great Tribulation time is given in Daniel and Revelation and is exactly 3 1/2 years. That is in the middle of the last week or seven years of Daniel.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. The last seven years (week of Dan) is also called the tribulation by some or the time of Jacob's trouble.

Verses?

No, like Mat 24 all sorts of end time things are listed. It is just mentioned that the days of tribulation or vengeance ends with the times of the gentiles ending.

To repeat, they aren't the same thing. The times of the Gentiles end with Jerusalem no longer being trodden under by Gentiles, it's there in the text. And Jerusalem was no longer trodden under by Gentiles as of 1967. While there's a lot in eschatology that is confusing and I find myself re-evaluating, this is clear prophecy fulfilled before our eyes.

No, Luke 13 is also about the end as solidly evidenced in the verse in Luke 13 than pinpoints it.

Luke 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
The time when Israel says Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord is only when they get saved in the end when He also comes back to earth.

My typo - I meant to type Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (as I had in previous posts) but once again, when was Jerusalem laid desolate? 70AD.

Since you haven't backed up your claims of a second rapture with a single verse, let me ask you a question:

Luke 21:6
As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

When do you believe this was fulfilled?

Oh, and one last thing:

You do realize Israel is a nation NOT worshiping the true God??! Seriously.

A) Why is this relevant? Even with your futurist model - you're still saying God is still dealing with Israel. Or else why talk about the temple mount or the anti-Christ? You can't have it both ways.
B) For the record, there have been believing Jews from the disciples to the present.

 

[truthpls]

No, Zech. 13:8-9 shows Israel repents THEN the DOTL arrives one vs. later.

Sorry. If the day of the Lord were one day, what is this?
Isaiah 34:8
For it is the day of the Lord 's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
This is ALSO in the day of the Lord
Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

and this

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
And we know it starts like this..

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The DOTL lasts 1260 days

Says you. The Great Trib lasts that long. That is IN the day of the Lord. (as is His return which is after the Trib)

. The time of Jacobs troubles, as shown in Dan. 12:7 by Jesus (Man in Linen) is a Time, times and 1/2 [time]. That is why in Rev. 12 John gives up both a Time, times and 1/2 time and 1260 days to let us know this.

We know how long the Great Trib is, not sure what you think you are seeing in these verses

That wasn't the overall point, even if its Elijah and Elisha they will still get the job done, they have been given all power and authority to do so. I think its Moses and Elijah because of the disfiguration on the Mt.

The job may not be only what you think

Thats just a myth, it is not factual, dead people already in heaven return to get a body, come on.

That is correct. We go to be with Him where He is as soon as we die. Have a team of scientists monitor the dead body still on earth. Not the same thing. But He promises to raise us bodily from the dead.

Reread 1 Cor 15, the reason the dead are raised uncorruptible is they have no sin flesh,

No. jesus had flesh and bone as He stated Himself. Overruled yet again

but vs. 1 Cor. 15:44 tells us the dead are raised as Spirit Men.

Our new eternal bodies like Jesus has are spiritual. They are also physical. Like Him. We consider that a spiritual incorruptible body. Context

Pssstt, John and Paul traveled to heaven without their bodies,

So do ALL believers when we die. Thanks for proving my point.

Satan and his demons live n the 2nd heaven and on earth, with no bodies,

So?

we do not have to get a body to travel to heaven,

As above, we go there only in spirit when we die till the resurrection/rapture.

we get our glorious bodies as a reward in heaven. Flesh and blood can not enter heaven. You guys assume stuff (I know, I believed this same thing for 30 years) and men's traditions take hold.

Jesus never said His risen body, which we will be like, was flesh and blood! Flesh and bone as well as spiritual.

Do me a favor and quit contradicting yourself, you go from you aren't clear enough to what is essentially I am too busy to read so I will make an excuse. If you are not going to read then just don't ask fir more clarity, or just don't reply.

When addressing a point don't refer to post number 12,643 or whatever, or spout out some number that has meaning within your little built up theories. No one is following your house of card theory here, so be clear on any point.

 

[truthpls]

Where's there scriptures for this?

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath

To repeat, they aren't the same thing. The times of the Gentiles end with Jerusalem no longer being trodden under by Gentiles,

That is only when Jesus returns. There are still gentiles there now trodding all over

it's there in the text. And Jerusalem was no longer trodden under by Gentiles as of 1967.

The temple mount is trodden by hardly anything else.

While there's a lot in eschatology that is confusing and I find myself re-evaluating, this is clear prophecy fulfilled before our eyes.

Not even close as stated gentiles still trod there, period

My typo - I meant to type Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (as I had in previous posts) but once again, when was Jerusalem laid desolate? 70AD.

Mat 24...what verse?

Since you haven't backed up your claims of a second rapture with a single verse, let me ask you a question:

Most people call our gathering together in the air the Rapture. You want to call His return when He also gathers folks after He returns to earth the Rapture. Not my problem

Luke 21:6
As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

When do you believe this was fulfilled?

70AD

Oh, and one last thing:



A) Why is this relevant? Even with your futurist model - you're still saying God is still dealing with Israel. Or else why talk about the temple mount or the anti-Christ? You can't have it both ways.

Not sure what the point there is supposed to be? Yes God will start dealing with Israel soon as He takes the church when that seven years start. And..?

B) For the record, there have been believing Jews from the disciples to the present.

We know. So..?

 

[JulieB67]

I seem to be missing your point. If we're caught up to Him in the air...why isnt that the same air that we breath in our atmosphere?

I didn't explain it very well. But some seem to think meeting Christ in the air means rising into the sky to meet him. As if the word meant sky in that instance. And that's not what's being said.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Air in this verse is Greek word

109 aer -to breathe unconsciously

Matthew 6:26 "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?"

Air in this verse is Greek
3772 ouranos (through the idea of elevation), the sky....

At the last trump all are changed into their spiritual bodies. That's they mystery that Paul spoke of.

Speaking on 1st Thes 4 too, the original subject was "where are the dead, their loved ones" and Paul describes what will happen and says "comfort" yourselves. The comfort was about their loved ones, not that anyone would be flying away. If you read further as I said into chapter 5, he calls the very event of chapter 4 -the day of the Lord. That's when Christ returns.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you." Paul is continuing
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

So we see without a doubt that the subject of 4:17 is called "the day of the Lord".

And if we read further into 2nd Thes he states that "day" (our gathering back to him) shall not happen until a falling away (apostasy in the Greek) and the man of sin being revealed. He makes it very simple and tells them not be be confused even as by letter from them (1st Thessalonians).

 

[Fisherking]

When addressing a point don't refer to post number 12,643 or whatever, or spout out some number that has meaning within your little built up theories. No one is following your house of card theory here, so be clear on any point.

I do not chat with rude people. As a preacher of near 40 years, we can discuss anything, but you violate the very things that make us Christians, which means Christ-like. By the way, those numbers may just be over your head, probably are, but you asked for clarity, and I can only espouse a point I can't teach you something you can not grasp.

 

[Divide]

So we see without a doubt that the subject of 4:17 is called "the day of the Lord".

Either that or you have confused rapture scriptures with 2nd coming scriptures. In 1 Thessalonians 4 it only talks about the rapture. I posted all the scriptures that I have identified as rapture scripture snd the 2nd coming scriptures already in this thread and so perhaps you have unconsciously set your bias to the 2nd coming as what you wish to believe and that I believe gets in the way of your understanding? I dont know.

If you take all the rapture and 2nd coming scriptures and mix them together into one, there will be contradictions and you can not explain the contradictions without destrying you presumption put forth.

You're welcome to try.

 

[Divide]

Like for instance, scriptures in different places tell us, we meet Him in the air. Another says He comes to earth and comes to the Mt of Olives. SO which is it?

Explain the discrepancy.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Mark it is after the tribulation. I assume you are talking about 1 thes 4 about the sleep in Jesus..

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Once again, the dead Christian with Jesus in heaven come back with Him at the Rapture.

There is no difference between the dead in Christ being gathered from heaven and coming with Jesus in 1 Thess 4:14 and the ones being gathered from heaven in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. That is what you are missing.

The payback is when He returns not when He comes in the air for us. In 1 thes 4 it says this
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The tribulation destruction comes after the day of the Lord starts. They will be talking peace then, after the rapture when the day of the Lord starts. Notice the day of the Lord verse comes before the other one?

Yes, we are first gathered to the Lord in the air and then the destruction occurs immediately after that which will catch unbelievers completely off guard which is why it is said to happen like a thief in the night. The scope of the destruction is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

What day? You jump around chapters like a grasshopper.

I use scripture to interpret scripture. I relate scriptures together to show what will happen. This is clearly a concept that you don't understand.

Which destruction? Of the planet? Or the enemies when He returns to earth? Or? Be specific.

Those are the same event. The day of the Lord that brings destruction upon His enemies that Paul describes in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the same day of the Lord that brings destruction upon the entire earth as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

You are jumping all over with your references and it is less than clear what you are talking about at times.

I never referenced 2nd Thessalonians 2, yet you referenced it as if I did. How hard is it to see that I didn't reference that?

You can call something ELSE beside the gathering together in the air the blessed hope all you like. The so called hope you seem to be preaching here is a time after the wrath of God, (which we won't be in) when Jesus returns to earth, and in which the planet is destroyed?! Sorry. The hope of ages I am talking about is being delivered from that wrath and meeting Him in the air.

You are very ignorant about all of this. You are not able to understand much for whatever reason. I am talking about the same hope that you are and I made that clear. The difference is that I see unbelievers being destroyed on the same day that we are gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. But, that isn't my hope. I just happen to believe that will happen on the same day that "the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) occurs.

So it is a real 1000 years or not? If not then you wave it away. Admit it

It is a real time period with a beginning and an end, but it is not a literal one thousand years. Similar to how the "thousand generations" referenced in the Old Testament in verses like Deuteronomy 7:9 is not a literal one thousand generations and the "thousand hills" referenced in Psalm 50:10 is not a literal one thousand hills. You do understand that there is figurative and symbolic text in the Bible, don't you?

Why can there not be a thousand generations? We live forever.

LOL. You miss every point that is made. I didn't say there can't be a thousand generations. Not even close. You are apparently not reading what I'm saying very carefully.

Are God's promises only good for a thousand generations and then they expire? No, right? So, it's not talking about His promises applying only to a literal one thousand generations and that's it. If it was meant to be a literal one thousand generations then that would mean they wouldn't apply to the 1,001st generation and beyond. So, it isn't meant to be taken literally. The same goes for the thousand years of Revelation 20. It's figurative text representing the length of time that Satan is bound.

Did you not think there is really a thousand hills on earth?

LOL. Once again you have missed the point. There are more than a thousand hills on earth with cattle on them. What does that tell you about what this means:

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Is this saying that only the cattle on exactly one thousand hills belong to God or is it figuratively saying that the cattle on ALL hills belong to God? It's the latter, right? I hope you can understand that. My understanding of the thousand years is similar. It's not a literal one thousand years, but is a figurative reference to all of the years during which Satan is bound.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not true at all.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.


1 Thessalonians 5:3
When they say, "Peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Nothing about the world being destroyed here at all.

You seem to have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture. Yes, it's true that Paul does not specify the scope of the "sudden destruction" he references there. So, how do we determine that? Are we just out of luck and left to speculate? No. We can look at what Peter said about the same day of the Lord that will come like a thief in the night that Paul referenced.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the scope of the "sudden destruction" that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives includes the heavens, the entire earth and the elements. So, just because Paul didn't specify the scope of the "sudden destruction" in 1 Thess 5:3 doesn't mean we can't determine that. You need to learn how to interpret scripture with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Jewish wedding custom was 7 days in the fathers house them the wedding feast. Armageddon is the wedding feast, however it is meant as metaphoric in nature, Jesus slays them all by the presence of his coming, but we revel in our victory over evil, over those who in many cases killed our brothers.

The Marriage Happens in the Fathers House (In my Fathers house are many mansions/houses)

Rev. 19:8 And to her(Bride) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Not Angels but Saints)

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.(The wedding happens BEFORE the Super not after, so Jesus has gone straight into speaking about the Wedding Supper to come) And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God........

Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (This is the Bride of Christ, returning with Jesus to the Marriage Supper which happens 7 years after the Marriage, which matches in prophecy the Jewish custom of 7 days)

We see the bride in Rev. 4:4, go read the promises to those of the 7 Churches who overcame, in Rev. 2:10 (Crowns of gold) in Rev. 3:5 (White Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 (to sit at God's throne) and in Rev. 4:4 they are sitting at God's thrones, with white robes and gold crowns. In Rev. 5:9-10 it says we are REDEEEMED by the blood, angels to not need redemption. We see them again in Rev. 7:9-16, no one can be raptured after the 70th week begins, once the wedding door is closed it is sealed.

So, the wedding has come, and they are looking forward to the Marriage Super, meaning the Marriage came. So, if Tom and Lisa's Marriage CAME are the married? I do not get all the nuanced shifting I see via people trying to make a verse fit their understanding. It kind of reminds me of those who say there is only 1/3 a week left and Jesus really died after the 69th week, instead of at the exact point of the 69th week as the prophecy says.

I believe you are the one shifting things to fit your view. Revelation 19 does not say that the wedding has already occurred at that point no matter what you try to say. It's figurative language, so there's no basis for comparing it directly to a Jewish wedding and wedding feast. There is no need for a certain amount of time to pass between a figurative wedding and wedding feast.

Can you tell me when you believe the following will occur:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Is this not what will occur when the rapture occurs? I would think so. So, do you think this verse is describing a pre-trib rapture?

Which is Pre Trib. He is returning with the Bride right there, as vs. 14 says.

Wow, getting late, Bed Time for me, have a great night my brother. God Bless

He will return with the souls of the dead in Christ. Paul talks about Him returning with the dead in Christ here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all agree that this passage describes the rapture. And it describes "them also which sleep in Jesus", who are also called "the dead in Christ" coming with Jesus from heaven when this event occurs. These are the ones who are coming with Jesus as described in Revelation 19 as well. It is the souls of the dead in Christ whose bodies have not yet been resurrected and changed who come with Him from heaven. He will only be descending from heaven once in the future. Scripture never teaches that He will descend from heaven, go back to heaven and then later descend from there again.

 

[JulieB67]

Either that or you have confused rapture scriptures with 2nd coming scriptures.

When we let the scriptures speak for themselves without any preconceived ideas, the scriptures clearly point to Christ returning one more time. People that believe in a pretrib rapture have to separate them to explain their beliefs. Others don't. When Christ states he comes back "immediately after the tribulation of those days, I take him at his word. Christ has foretold us "all things". The mystery that Paul talked about is that "all are changed at the last trump"

and so perhaps you have unconsciously set your bias to the 2nd coming as what you wish to believe and that I believe gets in the way of your understanding? I dont know.

Why would I do that when I myself believed in a pretrib rapture for over 30 years? I wouldn't. If the scriptures pointed to Christ returning before the last trump and before the tribulation of those days I would certainly believe it. There's not one verse stating that he does. Not one.
I think the problem for most that have been indoctrinated (I was as well) in this belief is that it is actually harder to unlearn something than to have an open mind at times, especially when it comes to the Bible. I went in with an open mind, only wanting the truth and of course I wouldn't drop my long held beliefs if I saw them there.

Like for instance, scriptures in different places tell us, we meet Him in the air.

We are meeting the Lord, not flying away.

Explain the discrepancy.

There is no discrepancy. Again, air does not mean we are elevating in the sky as I already pointed out. The word for air that means sky was not utilized in that verse.

It's sad that many take one or two verses out of context and built an entire doctrine out of it instead of reading chapter by chapter and verse by verse so we don't lose context. Plus we have to take the warnings given by Christ and Paul seriously. They never state" don't worry, you won't be there, etc. The entire subject is surrounded by warnings, signs and being on watch so that day, yes, day of the Lord doesn't overtake us as a thief.

 

[truthpls]

I do not chat with rude people. As a preacher of near 40 years, we can discuss anything, but you violate the very things that make us Christians, which means Christ-like. By the way, those numbers may just be over your head, probably are, but you asked for clarity, and I can only espouse a point I can't teach you something you can not grasp.

Sorry, if you thought you should teach prophesy. Learn first. Thanks. We will disagree on almost all the basics. I think it was you that agreed with a pre trib rapture, but still placed in in the seven year wrath? So even what we agree on we do not agree on. Cheers

 

[Fisherking]

I believe you are the one shifting things to fit your view. Revelation 19 does not say that the wedding has already occurred at that point no matter what you try to say.

Of course it does, what happens is you guys read things with a mindset and it blocks the obvious at times.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Not his bride, but his wife, you guys miss these type things because you have a preconceived notions. This shows the Marriage is happening at that point, and thus we are now called his Wife.

It's figurative language, so there's no basis for comparing it directly to a Jewish wedding and wedding feast. There is no need for a certain amount of time to pass between a figurative wedding and wedding feast.

Except I have studied it in depth and know the answers, and to try and say Jesus didn't use the Jewish or more correctly the Galilean wedding where most of the disciples were from just does not pass muster.

Can you tell me when you believe the following will occur:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Is this not what will occur when the rapture occurs? I would think so. So, do you think this verse is describing a pre-trib rapture?

Yes, that is easy, but still lacks the context you guys always leave out. Paul was telling the Thessalonians that their tribulations would one day be recompensed on their enemies. So, its obvious this is speaking about the 2nd coming, nit the Pre Trib Rapture which happens first.

He will return with the souls of the dead in Christ. Paul talks about Him returning with the dead in Christ here:

At the 2nd coming. Why is it you guys make such a big deal out of these things we pre trib guys already know? Rev. 19 shows us coming back with Jesus. Yet you think this proves you point, when in fact it proves you to be in error. Babes in Christ should understand the timing tbh.

 

[truthpls]

There is no difference between the dead in Christ being gathered from heaven and coming with Jesus in 1 Thess 4:14 and the ones being gathered from heaven in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. That is what you are missing.

Thwre is at least one difference and some similarities. One difference is that when Jesus comes in the air to gather us up to be with Him THERE, He brings the dead in Christ with Him, so that they too can have their old bodies raised up.

Yes, we are first gathered to the Lord in the air and then the destruction occurs immediately after that which will catch unbelievers completely off guard which is why it is said to happen like a thief in the night.

I can see that interpretation does try tot fit the thief in the night part.

The scope of the destruction is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Yes of course for unbelievers left behind it will also be a big surprise. And yes there will be a lot of destruction in that final seven years. However, When Jesus returns down to the earth with His saints that will NOT be a surprise to believers of that time. The very day is given. So that does not come as a thief in the night to us.

Those are the same event. The day of the Lord that brings destruction upon His enemies that Paul describes in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is the same day of the Lord that brings destruction upon the entire earth as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Those things happen IN the day of the Lord which is over a thousand years.

I never referenced 2nd Thessalonians 2, yet you referenced it as if I did. How hard is it to see that I didn't reference that?

Well, I guess all we can do is be clear what we are talking about.

You are very ignorant about all of this. You are not able to understand much for whatever reason. I am talking about the same hope that you are and I made that clear.

The hope of the church is more about Jesus. Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

When Jesus appears to all people and returns to earth, we are with Him. So that is not His appearing for us, we are coming and appearing with Him.

The difference is that I see unbelievers being destroyed on the same day that we are gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. But, that isn't my hope. I just happen to believe that will happen on the same day that "the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) occurs.

You are talking about His return to earth. We return with Jesus then as mentioned above.

It is a real time period with a beginning and an end, but it is not a literal one thousand years. Similar to how the "thousand generations" referenced in the Old Testament in verses like Deuteronomy 7:9 is not a literal one thousand generations and the "thousand hills" referenced in Psalm 50:10 is not a literal one thousand hills. You do understand that there is figurative and symbolic text in the Bible, don't you?

That does not fit. You see it mentions in that time that if a man dies at a hundred years old he will be considered almost a child. That is not symbolic.

Are God's promises only good for a thousand generations and then they expire? No, right? So, it's not talking about His promises applying only to a literal one thousand generations and that's it. If it was meant to be a literal one thousand generations then that would mean they wouldn't apply to the 1,001st generation and beyond. So, it isn't meant to be taken literally. The same goes for the thousand years of Revelation 20. It's figurative text representing the length of time that Satan is bound.


LOL. Once again you have missed the point. There are more than a thousand hills on earth with cattle on them. What does that tell you about what this means:

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Is this saying that only the cattle on exactly one thousand hills belong to God or is it figuratively saying that the cattle on ALL hills belong to God? It's the latter, right? I hope you can understand that. My understanding of the thousand years is similar. It's not a literal one thousand years, but is a figurative reference to all of the years during which Satan is bound.

It is a big number that illustrates that God owns all the earth. So yes He owns cattle on a thousand hills and more.

 

[Fisherking]

Sorry, if you thought you should teach prophesy. Learn first. Thanks. We will disagree on almost all the basics. I think it was you that agreed with a pre trib rapture, but still placed in in the seven year wrath? So even what we agree on we do not agree on. Cheers

Again, you do not comprehend well, no one said anything about a 7 year wrath, I stated what Jesus states, ALL TIME on this earth is TROUBLES or tribulation, you not being able to grasp that is on you sir. My advice is first and foremost express Christ at all times, even in disagreements.

So the Church Age is tribulation, where millions of our brothers have been killed, the 70th week is tribulation, only 3.5 years is God's wrath. Maybe I have to post a passage to get you to SEE it.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Not might have but WILL HAVE............as in always.

So, the Church Age is tribulation, the 70th week is tribulation, bit only 3.5 years is God's Wrath. Its not my job to make you understand, that is the holy spirits job, and he will show you, if you will listen.

So, you still want tom deny that ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation? Jesus can't lie sir.

 

[truthpls]

You seem to have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture. Yes, it's true that Paul does not specify the scope of the "sudden destruction" he references there. So, how do we determine that? Are we just out of luck and left to speculate? No. We can look at what Peter said about the same day of the Lord that will come like a thief in the night that Paul referenced.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Once again you face the same problem. In the time period called the day of the Lord we have both the entire seven last years as well as the entire millennium. So any destruction that happens must be looked at in context.
The issue is not 'using Scripture to interpret Scripture', but rightly dividing the word. Scripture does list many things in that time so it is using Scripture to interpret Scripture of course.