Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Valletta]

Israel is bombing civilians in the south of Gaza

‘The strikes are everywhere’: Palestinians flee south in Gaza but cannot escape bombs

Yes, the propaganda is expected. This was a horrific act of terrorism and we all need to work together to end the jihadist savagery.

 

[rjs330]

How about saying what you mean rather than expecting me to read your invisible ink.

In your post 611 you made a false accusation against me that I had made "a deliberate attempt to not condemn the Palestinian attack." when I had already denounced the attack in my post 497. You have not apologised for this nor removed the false accusation from your post as I requested.

Now you fire a volley of six further questions and expect me to answer them all. You are assuming a position of superiority over me that you do not in any way deserve.

But if you really want to have an exchange of questions let's make it fairer and more equal and keep it to one question at a time. You've had your first move with the question about condemning the Oct 7 attack so here's my first move:

According to the Jewish human rights organisation B'tselem since the beginning of the Second Intifada, 10,672 Palestinians have been killed by Israelis and 1330 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians. Data does not include the current conflict.
see Database on fatalities and house demolitions

Here is the question: Given the holocaust do you think the life of an individual Israeli is worth more than the life of an individual Palestinian and requires much more concern and intervention by the international community?

I asked you the questions first. I also asked you the questions since you wanted me to be more clear and say what I mean. I was hoping they helped.

Since you refused to answer them and instead impose one of your own, my initial reaction of the your answer is no was correct.

You see I did exactly as you requested and you still refused to answer. A refusal to answer is the same as saying no. The questions are not hard or complicated they are easy and as they are easy the answer should be as well. But you refused. So it's obvious you don't want to answer which means that I can assume the answer is no. Why would I remove the accusation. You have just proven it again. I'm certainly glad that you condemn the actions of the Palastinians on Oct 7. But I didn't ask that. And now I have made it more clear about what I was talking about and you still didn't answer.

As far as your stats are concerned they are meaningless. So what that more Palestinians have been killed. I would expect that a better armed, trained and equipped group would kill more of the enemy than vice versa. Did you somehow expect it should be even? The question is not who killed more. The question is why were they killed. Stats are meaningless without context.

The context is that the Palestinians have called for the annihilation of Israel and the killing of the Jews. That's their stated goal. So they attack the Israeli's at every opportunity. The fact that they are not efficient at it is irrelevant. What's relevant is that they were trying and have been trying ever since the 1940s.

Secondly they are also the ones that stick their non-combatants out front to act as shields. This also will add to the casualties. Again this is THEIR OWN FAULT. I don't blame anyone but the Palestinians for their actions. Any group that teaches their children in the schools and in their media that they should be hating and killing another group is abhorrent and evil.

The war in Afghanistan resulted in around 1900 military deaths.

It resulted in 46000 civilian deaths and 52000 enemy combatants deaths.

In Iraq we had about 4000 military deaths, 200000 civilian deaths and around 57000 enemy combatants deaths.

All this over 3000 Americans being killed.

So I have no patience with those who decry the deaths of those terrorist organizations who are part of a group of people who also call for the death of others.

A countries job is to protect its citizens. And if another country continually tries to kill your citizens then the gives come off. They have a right of defense and a right to go after the offenders and do what's necessary to try and protect their citizens in the future. If that means grabbing land to aid the the defense then so be it. I guess the enemy should have left them alone.

Leave Israel alone and they will leave you alone. They have shown great restraint in my opinion up until now. And they have done all they can to limit civilian casualties.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Might is right is an easy doctrine to advocate when you live in the country with the most powerful army and so can decide who is right and who is wrong.

First of all...I didn't advocate a "might makes right" doctrine. I advocated a total war doctrine. I can provide links if you fail to understand the difference.

But what if a far more powerful alien force were to invade the US (we know that it is where aliens always go). Would it be more "humane" for the alien force to act against the US in the way you advocate?

Thats actually an easy answer....

1. I hope they don't fight according to total war doctrine. I hope they fight according to the Geneva conventions and with concern for not harming civilians like we currently do. Then we can fight the way the Taliban did, ISIS did, and everyone else we've lost to all the way back to Vietnam....and win.

2. If they did use total war...then it's time to launch nuclear missles upon their homeland....and create such devastation that their military will need to be recalled just to retain order. If they have enough anti-nuclear missle technology...then it's time to deploy chemical or biological weapons we certainly have but pretend we don't. We have chemical agents that don't break down....or if they do, they break down into similarly deadly agents. I'm talking about agents so deadly they kill with fractions of micrograms per kilogram will cause a swift and painful death. Dump 100 lbs of that into some poor nation's water supply and it may not be able to even live near that river for hundreds of years.

The only upside to the way we wage war currently is that the soft-hearted moralists who never chose to volunteer for military service and can afford to keep their children from signing up get to pretend we aren't committing the war crimes they don't know about. That wins votes....but it doesn't win wars.

from https://www.worldfuturefund.org/Reports/Imperialism/usmurder.html

It could be the aliens have decided that the US is the country with most blood on its hands and the most dangerous country, and so needs to be neutralised.

Are we talking about sci-fi aliens? If they make contact.....we're all in trouble. It seems unlikely they'll single out any section of humanity for being "good" and "worth saving".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Posing a hypothetical scenario - even an impossible one - in order to illustrate a point is not a conspiracy theory.

What was the point though?

I honestly didn't see it.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Gazans forced to drink dirty, salty water as the fuel needed to run water systems runs out​

One vital supply missing from the aid convoys has been fuel. Without it, Gaza’s water system has crumbled.

“Fuel is water,” said Hall of CSIS. “Cutting off fuel is cutting off water.”

For Gazans, no power means taps have run dry. “Even if you are lucky and have a well, you will not be able to pump (water) to high floors because we don’t have electricity,” Al Shanti said.

Many of the water trucks Gazans rely on to fill water containers are unable to reach people’s homes because they lack fuel, and because of the bombardment,

Making water drinkable also relies on fuel.

All five wastewater treatment plants and two of the three desalination plants have stopped working. The enclave’s last remaining major desalination plant, which had been shut down for almost a week, resumed operations on Saturday but is at less than 7% of its usual capacity.

“The only water people have is essentially non-potable seawater mixed with sewage,” said Natasha Hall, a senior fellow with the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

Most of Gaza’s water comes from a coastal aquifer, a body of underground water that stretches along the coastline of the eastern Mediterranean from Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula up to Israel.

Around 97% is undrinkable; it’s salty, brackish, and contaminated by untreated wastewater and pollution.

I am surprised that the UN and other aid organizations aren't supplying items like this in Gaza:

Amazon.com

 

[wing2000]

I am surprised that the UN and other aid organizations are supplying items like this in Gaza:

Amazon.com

...with potable water scarcity, it makes sense....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Israel is bombing civilians in the south of Gaza

‘The strikes are everywhere’: Palestinians flee south in Gaza but cannot escape bombs

An appropriate response to Hamas' deliberate targeting of women, children, civilians, and taking of hostages.

We can say that it's far more likely that Israel is killing civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields. They create their bases in the basements of hospitals, schools, and even news organizations.

Why? Because Israel, like the US, attempts to fight using limited warfare. They hope that when Israel kills their human shields...they can generate sympathy through their anti-Semitic propaganda.

These actions aren't the same though. Hamas and their sympathizers avoid valid combat targets....they try to avoid engaging in combat with the IDF. They deliberately target civilians, babies, and take non-military hostages as further human shields. Israel targets terrorists and combatants. If your argument is about the morality of one side or the other....only Israel can be described as moral.

As for your admonishing of total warfare....consider this. The reason Hamas uses human shields is literally because Israel attempts to avoid civilian casualties. They hope that by cowardly hiding behind these human shields...Israel will decide not to attack. What would happen if Israel made it clear they were adopting a total war method and any target which brings about the end of the conflict is, in their eyes, a valid target....

Do you think Hamas would still adopt the strategy of hiding in schools, hospitals, news buildings, and other groups of non-combatants? If so....why? I would suggest that if all Palestinians knew that Israel no longer cared if Hamas used human shields and no longer deliberately tried to use its own innocent people for defensive cover....Hamas would have to drop the strategy of using human shields entirely or risk losing all popular support from the public.

 

[JosephZ]

Your position is one of softness and weakness, when we don't have the luxury for that at this time. While Israel is already, to its disadvantage, doing all it can to minimize civilian casualties, you want them to even more fight with one arm behind its back.

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

Hamas has been targeting civilians with rockets every day since 10/7. Why aren't you protesting against that in this thread? Why the double standard?

Since the attack on Israel on October 7th, I have said on this forum that the massacre of civilians committed by Hamas was absolutely reprehensible and unjustifiable, that those responsible should be held accountable and have also said Hamas has committed many atrocities and must be eradicated. It's not necessary for me to repeat myself every time a rocket is fired towards Israel.

 

[rjs330]

Israel said it had struck more than 400 targets in the past 24 hours, after hitting more than 320 a day earlier, in some of the most intense aerial attacks on Gaza in recent days. The Gaza Health Ministry, which is controlled by the armed group Hamas, said that it had recorded the highest single-day death toll of the war: at least 704 people killed in dozens of strikes on homes, a refugee camp and other places. It was not possible to independently verify the toll.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/24/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/heres-the-latest-on-the-war?smid=url-share

Even if the death toll is half what the Health Ministry claims, that is a terrible price to pay.
Israel understandably wants to reduce the risk to their soldiers by destroying as much of the Hamas military infrastructure as possible. But, in doing so, they are killing thousands of civilians, at least half of which are women and children. Israel's decision to write off the human toll as collateral damaga will have long term reprecussions.

No they won't. This is a war and in war civilians die. Israel has done all it can to minimize civilian death, but in the end, if civilians are there they will be killed. This is why war is an ugly ugly business. But when your enemy starts the war and then puts the citizens deliberately at risk it's no one's fault but theirs. Hamas should surrender which will save the citizens THEY put in harms way.

It just boggles the mind that anyone thinks that war can be clean, and produce few citizen casualties. There are always and always will be citizen casualties. This is why war should be avoided if at all possible. But sometimes war is necessary for a country to protect its people. At least the Israeli's told the people to leave, which is a darn sight more than the Palestinians told the Israeli's before they attacked.

If you don't want war, don't attack your neighbors.

 

[Valletta]

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

The IDF has had a tremendous amount of input as to how to avoid civilian casualties. If you think there is something deficient in their plan please let them know. At this point they have warned civilians to go south and heavily bombed the Hamas terrorists who savagely killed over a thousand innocent civilians. I can't think of a better strategy, Hamas and their supporters have taken a heavy toll from the air strikes. Israel has not yet started a ground attack. If heavy blows to Hamas with almost no cost of live to Israel is "playing right into the hands of Hamas" then I am all for it.

 

[rjs330]

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

Why should it? Everything it can can means it can't actually attack. Because to do so endangers civilians. What kind of war can be fought like that? Everything it it can means leaving all infrastructure intact so that Hamas has all the food, water and power it needs to continue the fight.

Israel is trying but as long as people stay or Hamas keeps them.there they are in danger and it's no one's fault but theirs.

The ignorance of the nature of war is astounding.

 

[rjs330]

@rjs330


This is very different from "No one has recognized a Palestinian state". If you're arguing there isn't a Palestinian state to recognize then saying "no one has recognized a Palestinian state" is pointless, and misleading of what you actually think. This is another example of you moving the goal posts. Using this kind of sophistry to try win petty debating points is inappropriate given the gravity of the situation.


from State of Palestine - Wikipedia

Saying you recognize something doesn't make it true. I could say that I recognize Trump as the president, doesn't mean Trump is actually the president.

Words are meaningless unless backed by reality. There is no state of Palestine. If there were why does everyone want a two state solution? Call it moving the goal posts if you will, but based upon your comments it was obvious I needed to clarify. No one has truly recognized Palestine as a state. Because you can't recognize something that doesn't exist.

The Montevideo Convention of 1933 sets out the classic attributes that a state must meet to be considered as such: it must have effective sovereignty over a defined territory, a stable population, a set of institutions capable of responding to the needs of its citizens, and be recognized as an equal by other states. “In the case of Palestine, it could be included in the series of so-called ‘quasi-states,’ or states with limited sovereignty,” explains Isaías Barreñada, PhD in political science and co-author of Palestine: From the Oslo Accords to Apartheid (2023).

It does not have effective sovereignty over its territory, but over a kind of archipelago of small portions of its territory,” says Barreñada, who also teaches international relations at the Complutense University in Madrid. The reason is that Fatah and the Palestinian Authority govern in a West Bank increasingly flooded with Israeli settlers, while Hamas governs de facto in Gaza. Nor does it have jurisdiction over the Palestinian population as a whole, insofar as some areas, those designated B and C under the 1993 Oslo Accords, are under Israeli control: the former only under military control and the latter under military and civilian control.

 

[wing2000]

No they won't. This is a war and in war civilians die.

"The U.S. can paint a vivid picture of civilian slaughter. During the eight-month siege to liberate Mosul from Islamic insurgents, as many as 10,000 people were killed, including at least 3,200 civilians from airstrikes, artillery fire or mortar rounds between October 2016 and the fall of the Islamic State group in July 2017, according to an Associated Press investigation. About the same number of civilians were killed or taken hostage by militants and used as human shields as they fled the city.

Austin, Gen. CQ Brown, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Eric Kurilla, head of U.S. Central Command, and other senior military commanders all spent time in the region around then and watched the violence unfold. They were keenly aware of efforts to set up humanitarian corridors and decisions to pause operations while civilians were warned to move away. So as they are speaking to their Israeli counterparts on an almost daily basis, they are sharing advice on the challenges of urban warfare, the threats of booby traps and roadside bombs and the drive to protect the innocent while rooting out insurgents hidden in schools, mosques and homes.
“Sharing our 20 years of lessons learned is occurring up and down the chain,” said Navy Capt. Jereal Dorsey, the spokesman for Brown.

Underscoring that priority, the U.S. has sent a team of military advisers to Israel, including Marine Corps Lt. Gen. James Glynn, who helped lead special operations forces against the Islamic State group. Glynn, who also served in Fallujah during some of the most heated urban combat there at the height of the Iraq War, will be able to advise the Israelis on how to mitigate civilian casualties in urban warfare.
“These officials, to include Gen. Glynn, have experience when it comes to urban combat,” Ryder told reporters Tuesday. “They’re in there temporarily with their military expertise to just go through and discuss some of the hard questions that the IDF should consider as they plan various scenarios.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/24/israel-hamas-gaza-lessons-us/bf241b26-72b4-11ee-936d-7a16ee667359_story.html

 

[Vanellus]

First of all...I didn't advocate a "might makes right" doctrine. I advocated a total war doctrine. I can provide links if you fail to understand the difference.

In order to "Deploy a complete military blockade of the Southern and Eastern borders of Afghanistan, which are their primary logistical pathways of reinforcement and retreat. Maintain a constant aerial surveillance and control of the Northern and Eastern borders which have significantly less cover from aerial attacks." you need to be a much mightier military power. And who decides who was right between, for instance, Vietnam and the US? How is that decided?

 

[JosephZ]

The war in Afghanistan resulted in around 1900 military deaths.

It resulted in 46000 civilian deaths and 52000 enemy combatants deaths.

In Iraq we had about 4000 military deaths, 200000 civilian deaths and around 57000 enemy combatants deaths.

All this over 3000 Americans being killed.

After all of those deaths and trillions of dollars spent in fighting the war on terror, al Qaeda, the Islamic State, and the Taliban still exist; al Qaeda is expanding its global presence, the Islamic State continues to be the deadliest terror group in the world, and the Taliban is probably stronger today than it was prior to the U.S. invasion in 2001.

The ignorance of the nature of war is astounding.

What's astounding to me is how many people continue to believe that using military force and all out war to defeat a terrorist group is the answer, when history has shown that it's not. Not only does it fail, it increases terrorism. Look at the increase in terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq for example. Prior to the war on terror, attacks in these two countries averaged well under 100 per year.

 

[Vanellus]

Hamas and their sympathizers avoid valid combat targets....they try to avoid engaging in combat with the IDF.

According to B'tselem between the 2nd Intifada and now Palestinians have killed 449 "Israeli forces"
Database on fatalities and house demolitions

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Sept 29 (Reuters) - Israeli soldiers on Friday killed a member of the Hamas Islamist group who the army said was among assailants who threw fire bombs at a military post in the occupied West Bank.

from Israeli troops kill Hamas man who army says attacked post in West Bank

The Beit Lid suicide bombing, (also named Beit Lid massacre[1][2][3][4]) was a double suicide attack by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad against Israeli soldiers at the Beit Lid Junction on January 22, 1995. It was the first suicide attack by Palestinian Islamic Jihad

from Beit Lid suicide bombing - Wikipedia

BREAKING: Two Explosions Rock Israeli Military Base, Checkpoint in Occupied West Bank

Although it is true that many Hamas attacks are against civilian targets

 

[Vanellus]

I asked you the questions first. I also asked you the questions since you wanted me to be more clear and say what I mean. I was hoping they helped.

Since you refused to answer them and instead impose one of your own, my initial reaction of the your answer is no was correct.

You are still assuming you have a position of superiority over me which means that you get to ask all the questions and I have to answer them, whereas you don't need to answer any of my questions. "I asked you the questions first" is playground talk. Your further questions did not clarify what you meant by "blanketly condemn Hamas for all their actions before and during this conflict?"

So what that more Palestinians have been killed.

This worrying disregard for the lives of any and every Palestinian indicates that you do actually regard the life of an individual Palestinian of less value than the life of an individual Israeli although you did not address my question directly.

 

[Vanellus]

How bombings, blockades and import bans caused Gaza’s water system to crumble​

Gaza’s already rudimentary water network has been obliterated, with 2.2 million residents trying to get by on three litres a day

How bombings, blockades and import bans caused Gaza’s water system to crumble

 

[Lukaris]

Meanwhile in Iran, the Iranian people seem to be increasingly opposed to Hamas.

Anti-Hamas Sentiments Grow In Iran As Israel Becomes More Popular

Four decades of propaganda by the Islamic Republic to garner support for its anti-Israeli campaign seems to have backfired as many Iranians want defeat for Hamas.

www.iranintl.com

 

[Chesterton]

The IDF is not doing everything it can to prevent civilian casualties, and their response to the October 7th terrorist attack played right into the hands of Hamas. The IDF is making a grave mistake that will have negative consequences not only for Israel, but also the United States for many years to come.

So your idea is - don't trim your fingernails because they'll only grow back. Don't mow your grass because it will only grow back. The mere existence of Israel has come with "negative consequences" since before Israel even existed (Arabs were killing Jews in the land before 1948). You seem to be well-educated about terrorism, but you don't seem well-educated about Islam. There is a significant strain of Islam which wants to own and subjugate the world. Israel and America and the rest of the West will experience negative consequences no matter what they do or don't do.

So if you think the IDF is making a grave mistake, tell me what you think the IDF should do.

Since the attack on Israel on October 7th, I have said on this forum that the massacre of civilians committed by Hamas was absolutely reprehensible and unjustifiable, that those responsible should be held accountable and have also said Hamas has committed many atrocities and must be eradicated. It's not necessary for me to repeat myself every time a rocket is fired towards Israel.

Yet you repeatedly repeat yourself every time you swallow media lies about what Israel is doing wrong.