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Hamas-Israel News Thread

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Ana the Ist

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I'm sure these statistics are correct. Hopefully we can remain in this rarefied state of limited engagements, that care about civilians and world opinion. However, if we go back to the last all out war (WWII) we see that terrorist's were troublesome, but only slowed the inevitable defeat. When kamikaze planes tried to halt the advance of America through the central and northern pacific, they killed thousands of sailors, however, it did little to stop the march of the US military towards Japan. At that point countries (including the US) where firebombing the cities regardless of civilian causalities. And of course tired of war, nuclear arms were used and thousands more civilians were killed. (Though interestingly not as many as the firebombing that proceeded it.) So yes, as long as there is a concern for collateral damage, terrorists can effectively and with impunity wreak havoc, however once the gloves come off it is really a matter of resources and military might.

Agreed. I think fundamentally, total war is a more effective strategy and results in short term damage compared to "limited engagement" and "just war" warfare theories/practices.

Last time Israel engaged in total war....the conflict lasted 6 days. Their only mistake was returning land to the Palestinians and thinking it would earn them good will and respect from their neighbors.
 
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JosephZ

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They are however, completely justified in removing Hamas from Gaza and the West Bank....by whatever means available.
Unfortunately, Isreal isn't going to be able to rid Gaza and the West Bank of Hamas. At some point there will be negotiations, a ceasefire, and a return to the way things were before this latest military campaign.
 
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JosephZ

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I'm sure these statistics are correct. Hopefully we can remain in this rarefied state of limited engagements, that care about civilians and world opinion. However, if we go back to the last all out war (WWII) we see that terrorist's were troublesome, but only slowed the inevitable defeat. When kamikaze planes tried to halt the advance of America through the central and northern pacific, they killed thousands of sailors, however, it did little to stop the march of the US military towards Japan. At that point countries (including the US) where firebombing the cities regardless of civilian causalities. And of course tired of war, nuclear arms were used and thousands more civilians were killed. (Though interestingly not as many as the firebombing that proceeded it.) So yes, as long as there is a concern for collateral damage, terrorists can effectively and with impunity wreak havoc, however once the gloves come off it is really a matter of resources and military might.
The kamikaze pilots during WWII involved state actors; when the state is defeated, the cause is abandoned, and the attacks stop. Non-state actors like the Islamic State, al Qaeda, and the Taliban are pretty much impossible to defeat militarily. The US and its allies threw pretty much everything they had at these groups, and they were unable to defeat them.

Unfortunately, the war between Israel and Hamas will be no different. The IDF will no doubt weaken Hamas, but there will be a remnant that will survive and regroup. With the amount of destruction and the number of civilians killed, there will be a lot of people willing to join Hamas or even form splinter groups with the intent to avenge what Israel has done to their homes and their families.

Until there's a renewed and serious attempt at peace by the Palestinians and Israel, the circle of violence will continue.
 
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rjs330

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Wrong. Your question was meaningless. Rather like asking which wins: the irresistible force vs the immovable object, or how many grains of sand are there on a beach (exact number required)?

But sadly it is evident that you are asking this question to sow division in the forum.
Usually when someone says a question is meaningless it's because they do t want to answer. And your answer definitely a deliberate attempt to not condemn the Palestinian attack. But you sure will condemn the Israelis. That says a lot.

I think there is already division here based upon what a persons opinion is about the conflict. I certainly didn't create it.
 
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Landon Caeli

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The kamikaze pilots during WWII involved state actors; when the state is defeated, the cause is abandoned, and the attacks stop. Non-state actors like the Islamic State, al Qaeda, and the Taliban are pretty much impossible to defeat militarily. The US and its allies threw pretty much everything they had at these groups, and they were unable to defeat them.

Unfortunately, the war between Israel and Hamas will be no different. The IDF will no doubt weaken Hamas, but there will be a remnant that will survive and regroup. With the amount of destruction and the number of civilians killed, there will be a lot of people willing to join Hamas or even form splinter groups with the intent to avenge what Israel has done to their homes and their families.

Until there's a renewed and serious attempt at peace by the Palestinians and Israel, the circle of violence will continue.
But the West Bank has been behaving much better than Gaza... Because they are ruled by the Palestinian Authority, and not Hamas.

...Now, Israel wants the Palestinian Authority to replace Hamas, why is that a viable solution for one group of Palestinians, but not for the other?

 
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rjs330

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know for certain that without Israel showing a good faith effort towards the citizens of Gaza and the Palestinian people, there will never be peace, so that is a must. It will take a while, perhaps a generation, but I do believe real peace can be achieved between Israel and the Palestinians at some point. In addition to Israel working with and along with the Palestinian people, there will also have to be a return to either the 1948 or 1967 borders with no occupation by Israel in any of the Palestinian territories.
When has the Palestinians shown good faith effort towards the people of Israel? Until they do there never will be peace. Until they stop attacking them there never will be peace. What's so special about the 1967 borders? Those were the borders BEFORE the Arabs tried to remove Israels borders entirely. And Israel gave back nearly all the territory they took after being attacked. Why should Israel have to give back territory when they were the ones attacked? That makes no sense.
It's important to note that Israel has failed to recognize Palestine as a legitimate state at any point since its creation, with some in the Israeli government rejecting the idea of a Palestinian state under any circumstances.
No one has recognized a Palestinian state. In fact the Palestinians don't recognize a Palestinian state. Why should Israel?
Egypt and Jordan. These two states should lead the way in negotiating peace, not only between Israel and the Palestinians but also with all of its Arab neighbors.
I don't disagree. Except Jordan and Egypt don't like the Palestinians and aren't interested in seeing a Palestinian state.
believe so. The people on both sides are tired of violence and war and have a natural desire to live in peace. First, there will need to be an internationally mediated truce between Israel and Hamas, and each side needs to get rid of the hardliners in their governments and find a way to put moderates in charge. This will be easier to do in Israel than in Gaza, but it needs to happen. I think once this is done, serious negotiations between the two can begin.
There might have been some truth to this before the Palestinian attack. But once Babies are beheaded, your women raped and people burned alive, I think things change.
 
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jacks

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The kamikaze pilots during WWII involved state actors; when the state is defeated, the cause is abandoned, and the attacks stop. Non-state actors like the Islamic State, al Qaeda, and the Taliban are pretty much impossible to defeat militarily. The US and its allies threw pretty much everything they had at these groups, and they were unable to defeat them.

Unfortunately, the war between Israel and Hamas will be no different. The IDF will no doubt weaken Hamas, but there will be a remnant that will survive and regroup. With the amount of destruction and the number of civilians killed, there will be a lot of people willing to join Hamas or even form splinter groups with the intent to avenge what Israel has done to their homes and their families.

Until there's a renewed and serious attempt at peace by the Palestinians and Israel, the circle of violence will continue.
I sense from your post, that you believe (hope?) anger, revenge and determination can overcome all obstacles. However, Hamas has no monopoly on these feelings. Many people have died for a cause and are willing to sacrifice all; state actors or not. We most realize that some people are willing to throw the world into total chaos, through their false sense of righteousness and in the end no one wins. Puffing out our chests and claiming we are tougher or more committed than our enemy only leads to more blood shed. Whether Hamas survives or not depends on their willingness to compromise, not kill.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Unfortunately, Isreal isn't going to be able to rid Gaza and the West Bank of Hamas.

Well...they're certainly physically able to.

It's just a matter of political will really. If the political will exists...they can not only rid Gaza and the West Bank of Hamas, they can rid them of Palestinians entirely.



At some point there will be negotiations, a ceasefire, and a return to the way things were before this latest military campaign.

I suppose that's the most likely scenario, but stranger things have happened.

I would be surprised if after this settles Israel doesn't step up it's settlement of Palestine.
 
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Vanellus

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Usually when someone says a question is meaningless it's because they do t want to answer. And your answer definitely a deliberate attempt to not condemn the Palestinian attack. But you sure will condemn the Israelis. That says a lot.

I think there is already division here based upon what a persons opinion is about the conflict. I certainly didn't create it.
Your original question was whether I should "blanketly condemn Hamas for all their actions before and during this conflict?" (post 611)
That is all actions of Hamas since its creation.
Neither you or I know what all the actions of Hamas have been since its creation. Your question was ridiculous but also an attempt to pop me into a box.
Now you have changed it to do I condemn the Palestinian (=Hamas) attack. That is moving the goalposts. Sure you want to put me in a labelled box that you can condemn.

In post 497 (before your post 611 when you asked the original question) I wrote; "I denounce what Hamas did on Oct 7 in Israeli kibbutzim near Gaza." I can repeat that with the word "condemn" if you have something against the word "denounce".

I think you need to withdraw your false accusation that I am making "a deliberate attempt to not condemn the Palestinian attack." and also reflect on why are you making such false accusations against me.

I condemn the Hamas attack on October 7.
 
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Vanellus

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No one has recognized a Palestinian state. In fact the Palestinians don't recognize a Palestinian state. Why should Israel?
Of the 193 member states of the United Nations, 138 (71.5%) have recognised the State of Palestine as of 31 July 2019.[84] The list below is based on the list maintained by the Palestine Liberation Organization during the campaign for United Nations recognition in 2011,[23] and maintained by the Permanent Observer Mission to the UN.[85]

Some states, marked with an asterisk (*) below, expressly recognized the State of Palestine on the borders of 4 June 1967 (i.e., the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem), which constituted Arab territory prior to the Six-Day War.


from International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia
 
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essentialsaltes

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The death toll in the Gaza Strip has passed 5,000, Palestinian health authorities said Monday, after Israel said it launched hundreds of strikes on the enclave overnight.

Palestinian authorities said Israeli strikes have killed at least 5,087 people in Gaza and wounded more than 15,200. According to the update, the majority of the latest fatalities were in southern Gaza, where Israel previously urged more than a million Palestinians to flee to escape the brunt of its airstrikes. In Israel, more than 1,400 people have been killed and more than 5,400 injured since Hamas’s attack on Oct. 7, according to Israeli authorities. At least 32 U.S. nationals were among those killed.

The White House said President Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed Sunday that there would be a “continued flow” of critical aid, the same day a second convoy of trucks entered Gaza through the Rafah crossing from Egypt [Now a 3rd, apparently]. As tensions rise in the Middle East, Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned of a “likelihood” of “escalation by Iranian proxies” against U.S. forces and said the United States is “taking steps to make sure we can effectively defend our people.”

Israel continued to strike Hezbollah targets inside Lebanon, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, an IDF spokesman, said Monday. The Washington Post could not immediately verify Israel’s reports of strikes. Netanyahu has warned Hezbollah that Israel would retaliate if the militant group joined the war, and that any escalation along the shared border would be “devastating” for Lebanon.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I don't disagree. Except Jordan and Egypt don't like the Palestinians and aren't interested in seeing a Palestinian state.
Jordan and Egypt are among the first 50 countries that recognized Palestine within a week of Palestine's Declaration of Independence in 1988 (per the list shared by Vanellus).
 
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Ana the Ist

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History says otherwise. Since 1968, fewer than 10% of terrorist groups have been defeated by military force alone and those with religious and/or nationalist motivations are the most likely to survive a military campaign against it. Hamas has somewhere between 15,000 and 40,000 members and isn't confined to just Gaza. It also has a presence in the West Bank, Egypt, and Lebanon.

Source?
 
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essentialsaltes

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GAZA, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Israel's military has warned Gaza residents that they risk being identified as accomplices "in a terrorist organisation" if they do not move south, Palestinians there said, amid growing humanitarian fears with little aid being allowed in.
More than a million people lived in the north of the Gaza Strip, and hundreds of thousands have gone southwards to cram into temporary refuges despite unremitting air and artillery strikes also hitting the southern areas they have fled to.

Stay in the north and die as a terrorist or flee south and die as collateral damage.
 
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Ana the Ist

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The kamikaze pilots during WWII involved state actors; when the state is defeated, the cause is abandoned, and the attacks stop. Non-state actors like the Islamic State, al Qaeda, and the Taliban are pretty much impossible to defeat militarily. The US and its allies threw pretty much everything they had at these groups, and they were unable to defeat them.

No they didn't. They (US and allies) fought limited war.

The idea that it's "impossible" to defeat someone is ridiculous.
 
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har_habayit

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I knew there must be an easy solution. Just move all the Jews to Alaska. :rolleyes:

(Sorry I don't know if your post was meant to be a joke, but it of course ignores so much of reality, it is hard to take seriously.)

Hello sir. I understand where you think my post is ridiculous. I certainly am not advocating one solution or another. My thought was strictly in terms of logic. I feel that the letters of Osama Bin Laden reflect a lot of thinking in the Arab street. Certain governments, like Egypt and Jordan, do not think the same way, but this could be more for expediency than ideology. Remember, Muslims have a strategy called "taqiyyah" which is basically justified dishonesty in order to pursue a greater goal. Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of Iran, has admitted that he agreed to the Western powers' nuclear deal, JCPOA, in 2015, under the principle of taqiyyah. I am not accusing Muslims of using this tactic often, but it is accepted, at least in some quarters, as a justifiable tactic. The "Supreme Leader" of Iran was trying to buy time with the nuclear program in his country and he thought that engaging in deceit was justified, since Western powers presumably cannot be trusted.

About the Jews moving to another country, I was thinking about it purely in terms of pragmatism, avoidance of loss of lives, and peace in the Middle East. Obviously, if there is a prophetic component to the modern state of Israel existing where they are, the Jews are not going to move to Alaska. However, given the reality pointed to in Bin Laden's letters, whose view is widely shared across the region as regards the existence of Israel and the evil of the U.S.A, there will never be peace in the region no matter how many peaceful gestures that Israel makes towards the Palestinians.

In terms of preservation of Jewish life, just in terms of the devastating loss of life that is coming for that country, I would recommend for them to leave the country. But that is their prerogative. There is a concept called, "choosing the hill to die on." For many Israelis, obviously, the prospect of forsaking the hope they carried for 2,000 years to return to their homeland is a non-starter. So, they will have to live with the fact that many, and I mean many of them, are going to die in the next three months if the Lord tarries.

Sometimes, I do wish that the Israelis would just move, because it truly breaks my heart to see how many of them are going to die (both soldiers and civilians) but that is their choice whether to stay in the land, or not, notwithstanding any actual impossibilities that surround that.

Theoretically, the government of Israel, with the backing of the United States and the rest of the Western powers, can stand up and say, "we, as the Jewish state, have made a mistake in coming here by force and displacing millions of people. In recognition of the fact that a Jewish state will always be a source of antagonism for the surrounding people, and given that the state of Israel will never exist as a peaceful country, we have decided to withdraw our presence in this land as a gesture of peace to our neighbors, and as a gesture of peace towards the citizens of Israel, whom we are not willing to subject to another holocaust, which is sure to happen in the near future."

I would like to think, for the safety of the citizens of Israel, that this could happen. Will it happen? Only in dreams. But it is still nice to think about, not because I hate a Jewish presence in Jerusalem, but because I love the people there, however ungodly they may be, and I am not willing that any of them should perish.

Going back to the impossibility of Islam to accept a Jewish state in the region, I will share a concise list of requirements that Osama Bin Laden shared with the U.S.A in regards to why he is waging war on us and what he expects of us if we are to have real peace. I will not link to those letters. They are widely circulated, even on U.S. federal agency sites such as the Director of National Intelligence page, but I will point out seven points that UBL wrote about. He said that if all seven conditions are not met, expect war with the "Islamic Nation".

1) Convert to Islam.
2) Stop the oppression, lies, immorality, and debauchery that has spread in your country.
3) Be honest with yourselves, that you are a nation without principles and manners.
4) Stop supporting Israel, and all governments which oppress Muslims.
5) Pack your bags and leave our countries (including all military activity and presence).
6) End your support for the corrupt leaders in our countries.
7) Deal with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than theft and occupation, and end your policy of supporting the Jews, because this will result in more disasters for you.

He also mentions the Palestinians as "our brothers" who the Americans and Israelis are killing.

I don't think that the Muslims are people that the Israelis can negotiate with. I think of Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. If the Jews can negotiate a presence and a temple on the temple mount, then I believe the Jews can also negotiate a presence in the land of Israel. But if they cannot negotiate a Jewish presence on the temple mount, then it is highly unlikely they will also be able to negotiate a lasting peace with their neighbors.

As for Bin Laden's requirements concerning the U.S, obviously, we as a country will never convert to Islam (probably) nor should we, so we will never meet all of Bin Laden's requirements to avoid terrorism. However, we are certainly stoking the fire by arming Israel and maintaining a strong presence in the Middle East. While I make no policy prescriptions as regards what the U.S. government should do, I merely note that the U.S. and the West should expect a reckoning from this mentioned "Islamic Nation" very, very soon.
 
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wing2000

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No they didn't. They (US and allies) fought limited war.

The idea that it's "impossible" to defeat someone is ridiculous.

The military capability of Hamas can be defeated.
Their ideology will not be defeated and IMO, is being strengtheed every day the Israeli air force bombs Gaza cities where thousands of people live while providing no safe passage for them.
 
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wing2000

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Israel has started ground operations inside Gaza:

JERUSALEM — Israeli troops, accompanied by tanks and armored engineering vehicles, have carried out raids inside Gaza and clashed with Hamas militants, leaving one Israeli soldier dead and three wounded, military said Monday.

Israel Defense Forces spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari told reporters that armored and infantry forces were fighting inside the Gaza perimeter with the mission “to kill terrorist cells in preparation for the next phases of war.”

The raids took place as Israeli air, naval and ground forces launched massive overnight strikes across Gaza, from Jabalya in the north, where Israel had warned more than 1 million Palestinians to evacuate, to Khan Younis and Rafah in the south, areas the Israeli military said would be considered safe zones.

The IDF said Monday that it had fired on 320 targets in the enclave over the past 24 hours, including tunnels and what it described as command centers run by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a smaller militant group.

 
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Landon Caeli

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The military capability of Hamas can be defeated.
Their ideology will not be defeated and IMO, is being strengtheed every day the Israeli air force bombs Gaza cities where thousands of people live while providing no safe passage for them.
Depends on what the result of PTSD is, I would imagine. Does it cause an increase in aggression? Or an avoidance of aggression?

...I don't know what war does to people. Terrorists are still human beings, afterall.
 
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