Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Landon Caeli]

BREAKING: Russia & China Form Joint Middle East Strategy​

Russia & China Form Joint Middle East Strategy - NewsBreak

Russia and China Unveil Plan to Jointly Tackle Middle East Issues: A New Era in Global Politics. In a development that could dramatically reshape the geopo

original.newsbreak.com

 

[jacks]

The only peaceful way for the Israelis out of this situation is simply to pack their bags and move to Alaska, Canada, or some other place

I knew there must be an easy solution. Just move all the Jews to Alaska.

(Sorry I don't know if your post was meant to be a joke, but it of course ignores so much of reality, it is hard to take seriously.)

 

[rjs330]

I do also have to mention something of interest here.

I remember hearing about a certain terrorist held responsible for 9/11 in the U.S. writing letters "to the American people." I think studying these documents is probably a good idea, since the ideas contained in them are used to justify violence against Western interests. One can see that the logic contained in the letters applies very much to our current day. If anything, based on the logic of Bin Laden's letters, it seems that these terrorists have even more "justification" to do to the U.S. what they did then.

The letters of the terrorist who helped plan the 9/11 attacks in the U.S. are widely available online. After reading some of them, it is clear that the violence committed is waged BECAUSE the Americans have bases and troops throughout the Middle East and because they bow down to the Jewish lobby and support an Israeli "oppressor" in a Muslim land, who is oppressing Palestinians. Read these excerpts:

"They threw hundreds of thousands of soldiers against us and have formed an alliance with the Israelis to oppress us and occupy our land; that was the reason (emphasis mine) for our response on the eleventh."

"Palestine has been under occupation for decades, and none of your presidents talked about it until after September 11 when Bush realized that your oppression and the tyranny against us were part of the reason for the attack. Then he talked about the necessity for two states. Obama is trying to address the issue with the same solutions suggested by his predecessor; they are quilting fruitless solutions not of concern to us. If you want a real settlement that guarantees your security in your country and safeguards your economy from being depleted in a manner similar to our war of attrition against the Soviet Union, then you have to implement a roadmap that returns the Palestine land to us, all of it, from the sea to the river, it is an Islamic land not subject to being traded or granted to any party. (Bold type and underline is mine). In conclusion: Be assured that we do not fight for mere killing but to stop the killing of our people. It is a sin to kill a person without proper, justifiable cause, but terminating his killer is a right. You should be aware that justice is the strongest army and security offers the best livelihood; you lost it by your own making when you supported the Israelis in occupying our land and killing our brothers in Palestine. The road to safety starts with the stopping of aggression."

There is no proper way to say this, but UBL was actually a pretty mild terrorist compared to Hamas and Hezbollah. I believe the Ayatollahs and their proxies are far more vicious than even Al Qaeda and they have far more "reason" to be upset with the western world due to our moral degeneracy, which is actually far worse than it was in 2001.

So, for even UBL, the holy land is a strictly Islamic land. It cannot be granted, especially through violence and oppression, to any other group. I do not believe it is possible for an Israeli presence to negotiate peace with any Muslim entity that believes this way. It would be like trying to "negotiate" a Jewish temple and prayer time on the Temple Mount. The Muslims firmly believe that non-Muslims do NOT have the right to pray atop the Temple Mount. It is not, and ever will be, a point of negotiation for them.

So, my conclusion is that either:

1) the Israelis have to agree to voluntarily vacate the land and form a state in Alaska or elsewhere, as former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stated: "If you [Europeans] committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price? This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the US, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country."

or, 2) fight to the death and make peace with no one, fighting all the Arabs around and the ayatollahs.

The reason I feel like, "in the natural", Israel has no future is because there is no way for them to make peace with hundreds of millions of people who believe they are an illegitimate oppressor state occupying strictly Islamic lands and killing Muslims. The only peaceful way for the Israelis out of this situation is simply to pack their bags and move to Alaska, Canada, or some other place. The Muslims will never make peace with Israelis "occupying" lands that they believe are Islamic.

I share the excerpts from UBL's letters to warn people that the logic that was used to execute a 9/11 style attack is just as "valid" for the terrorists today as it was back then. In fact, in their minds, it is probably far more justified, since America is even more morally corrupt today than it was in 2001, and the American support for the "occupation" is stronger today than it was in 2001.

Yosef this is really good stuff. It's covers things we have been saying throughout the thread. You added some relevant points and tied it in with actual information regarding the Arabic mindset regarding Israel. There will be no peace in Palestine. Israel HAS to destroy Hamas. They must show strength here because there are even worse factions waiting in the wings looking for a weak Israel. Israel cannot show weakness.

The Arabs do not believe Israel should exist and their mere existence is an affront to them. And ANY move they make to protect themselves is seen by the Arabs and their allies, which includes many on the left, is looked at as apartheid, genocide or some such other nonsense. The hatred of Israel and deep anti-Semitism is fully on display right now.

Yes most Israeli's do not believe in God right now. But they will. Eventually faith in the God of Abraham will return to Israel. As with most things in life oppression and sorrow and loss will drive them to faith again. Scripture is clear on that, but I don't know when that will happen. I just know that it will because scripture says it will. The Jews are Gods original chosen and they will see it again. Their rejection of him is what brought the gospel to us gentiles while at the same time removing God's favor on Israel for salvation. But as seen throughout scripture Israel always returns at some point.

 

[rjs330]

I knew there must be an easy solution. Just move all the Jews to Alaska.

(Sorry I don't know if your post was meant to be a joke, but it of course ignores so much of reality, it is hard to take seriously.)

I think you missed the point entirely. And it do a not ignore reality at all. It was backed up with some excellent points that were well thought out and also included terrorist letters.

He's right, there will NEVER be peace in the region as long as Israel is there. There is a deep seeded hatred for them from the Arabs. They will never be accepted. If there really is to be peace, Israel has to cease to exist which means the Jews have to leave and settle somewhere else or discourage through our the world like they used to be without a homeland or nation of their own.

I do t believe he ever said there is an easy solution.

 

[rjs330]

BREAKING: Russia & China Form Joint Middle East Strategy​

Russia & China Form Joint Middle East Strategy - NewsBreak

Russia and China Unveil Plan to Jointly Tackle Middle East Issues: A New Era in Global Politics. In a development that could dramatically reshape the geopo

original.newsbreak.com

VERY interesting! More indication that we are in the end days and moving to the Great Day of The Lord.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

 

[Vanellus]

So I he answer is no. Got it.

Wrong. Your question was meaningless. Rather like asking which wins: the irresistible force vs the immovable object, or how many grains of sand are there on a beach (exact number required)?

But sadly it is evident that you are asking this question to sow division in the forum.

 

[Vanellus]

Don't feel shy about pointing that fact out then, keep everyone honest.

On the first page posts 2,3,4,8,10,13,19

 

[Trivalee]

The news are mostly one-sided.

It doesn't talk about Israel's highly aggressive and unjustified heavy hand monitoring of the Gaza strip before the conflict causing the deaths and life-long debilitating injuries of many innocent Palestinians and is outright terrorism.

And despite Israel's efforts to monitor the Gaza strip, the buildup proceeded anyways which makes you question Israel's goals at "monitoring Gaza Strip" is it really for gathering intelligence and preventing buildups or just to terrorize the population.

And Israel's response to the terrorist attacks by the Hamas was to conduct aerial bombardments of civilian areas in the Gaza strip instead of sending "surgical strike teams" on the ground to minimize collateral damage and civilian casualties.

The West often refers to it as "deterrence" but they way it's being done is no different than terrorism.

I would bet the surprise attack was motivated by revenge and you cannot have revenge without a cause. Cause and Effect.

Deterrence have its place and purpose but use it on innocents and do it long enough, people will eventually reach its breaking point and can't take any more of it.

Isn't it rich of you to accuse Israel of "aggressive and unjustified heavy monitory, etc"? When Hamas launched their unprovoked attack against Israel, they did not play by the rule of engagement - they cut down everyone in their path - both young, old and even babies! Did they not know that Israel will hit back twice harder? Of course, they knew! Unfortunately, most people in the West still do not understand the mindset and culture of Muslim Arabs. The sanctity and value we (in the West) place on human life are alien to them. For example, it is common knowledge that Palestinian mothers regularly send their sons off on suicide missions against Israel so they'll be respected in their community as a mother of a martyr.

Obviously, you have no clue about how military operations are conducted. Without demoralising the enemy and weakening their defence and attack architecture, boots on the ground will be suicide. It's impossible to conduct a surgical strike in a densely populated area like the Gaza Strip without collateral damage. Moreover, Hamas has had sufficient time to plan and prepare for battle with hidden tunnels and booby traps, etc. Heavy bombing is the only way to ensure that at least 50% or more of Hamas' infrastructure is damaged or disorganised, prior to a ground offensive. You may think the bombing is excessive and overkill, but there's an objective to it - and it's backed by US Military planners. The loss of innocent civilian life is always regrettable, but the reality is that Hamas knew this would happen but didn't care!

There are TWO ways to look at the Hama-Israeli conflict: (1) the political and (2) religious perspectives. Naturally, a lot of people look at it politically but the remnant church must see it from God's viewpoint - the religious perspective

As the time of the Gentiles gradually draws to a close (Rom 11:25), God is turning his attention back to his inheritance. As with human nature, God knows that He will only get Israel's attention by affliction. Sadly, Israel today is no closer to God than North Korea or China. Although there is an increasing number of converts to Christ, but the majority remain unapologetically opposed to Yeshuya as their Messiah. Their trust and hope for protection is in America rather than the GOD of Israel. God allowed their 'Intelligence' outfit to fall asleep and their intelligence apparatus to fail in detecting the Hamas assault, to remind them that man and technology won't save them.

Unfortunately, the days of the prophets are long gone (not that they believed in all of them anyway); so God will allow them to get to a place of utter desolation and hopelessness before they'll look up to heaven for help. This conflict with Hamas is only the beginning - early birth pangs if you like.

I am on the Lord's side and that means that Israel has my unshakeable support in dealing with Hamas!!!

 

[Desk trauma]

I knew there must be an easy solution. Just move all the Jews to Alaska.

Moving 7 million people no biggie. Then the land will flourish as it’s Judenfrei!

 

[JosephZ]

Do you think that if the Israelis showed a good faith effort towards the regular citizens of Gaza, Judea, and Samaria, that there could be real peace?

I know for certain that without Israel showing a good faith effort towards the citizens of Gaza and the Palestinian people, there will never be peace, so that is a must. It will take a while, perhaps a generation, but I do believe real peace can be achieved between Israel and the Palestinians at some point. In addition to Israel working with and along with the Palestinian people, there will also have to be a return to either the 1948 or 1967 borders with no occupation by Israel in any of the Palestinian territories.

It seems to me since this chaos started that no Palestinian representative or sympathetic party is admitting that the Jews have a valid claim and right to territory in the holy land. I am not saying they haven't done, and if something like this HAS been admitted, I would like to know.

But the reason I ask is because if popular sentiment in the Palestinian territories and across the Arab street is that Israel is an illegitimate state established on violence and oppression, that this is not quite an entity you can do negotiations with at all.

It's important to note that Israel has failed to recognize Palestine as a legitimate state at any point since its creation, with some in the Israeli government rejecting the idea of a Palestinian state under any circumstances. On the other hand, Palestinian leaders, such as President Mahmoud Abbas and Yasser Arafat, have recognized Israel as legitimate in the past. Even Iran at one point recognized the state of Israel.

if a large contingent of Israel's neighbors are either terrorists or support politicians and parties that call for Israel's annihilation, can Israel even hold negotiations with people like that?

Currently, there are two of four Arab states that share a border with Israel that recognize its legitimacy and have relativly good relations with Israel: Egypt and Jordan. These two states should lead the way in negotiating peace, not only between Israel and the Palestinians but also with all of its Arab neighbors.

can Israel even engage in any sort of peace negotiations after this campaign?

I believe so. The people on both sides are tired of violence and war and have a natural desire to live in peace. First, there will need to be an internationally mediated truce between Israel and Hamas, and each side needs to get rid of the hardliners in their governments and find a way to put moderates in charge. This will be easier to do in Israel than in Gaza, but it needs to happen. I think once this is done, serious negotiations between the two can begin.

Looking at recent polls, neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are happy with their current leadership. This is a good sign.

I share the excerpts from UBL's letters to warn people that the logic that was used to execute a 9/11 style attack is just as "valid" for the terrorists today as it was back then. In fact, in their minds, it is probably far more justified, since America is even more morally corrupt today than it was in 2001, and the American support for the "occupation" is stronger today than it was in 2001.

Unfortunately, not much has changed since the 1990's, which leaves little doubt that we will be seeing a new wave of extremist violence emerging in the United States and its interests in other parts of the world as a result of recent developments in Israel and the United States' unconditional support for Israel. This will be a problem in many other Western countries as well.

Sorry for my delay in responding, and my answers to your questions lacking detail. The weekends are a busy time for me, and I don't have as much time to be interacting on the forum as I sometimes do. I enjoyed reading your posts, and the subjects you brought up are worthy of further discussion.

 

[JosephZ]

Obviously, you have no clue about how military operations are conducted. Without demoralising the enemy and weakening their defence and attack architecture, boots on the ground will be suicide. It's impossible to conduct a surgical strike in a densely populated area like the Gaza Strip without collateral damage. Moreover, Hamas has had sufficient time to plan and prepare for battle with hidden tunnels and booby traps, etc. Heavy bombing is the only way to ensure that at least 50% or more of Hamas' infrastructure is damaged or disorganised, prior to a ground offensive. You may think the bombing is excessive and overkill, but there's an objective to it - and it's backed by US Military planners. The loss of innocent civilian life is always regrettable, but the reality is that Hamas knew this would happen but didn't care!

The military strategy you describe works when fighting standing armies; it doesn't work when fighting terrorist groups. Unfortunately, Israel's current response to Hamas in Gaza has provided them with a ripe breeding ground for terrorists for a generation, if not longer.

 

[Trivalee]

The military strategy you describe works when fighting standing armies; it doesn't work when fighting terrorist groups. Unfortunately, Israel's current response to Hamas in Gaza has provided them with a ripe breeding ground for terrorists for a generation, if not longer.

I partly agree. It is the same problem confronting every Western army, from Russia against Afghanistan in 1979 to the US and the allies in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent times. Once a terrorist drops his AK47, he becomes an "innocent civilian" but with a weapon, he's a terrorist. How do you fight with such shadowy figures?

Israel has been surrounded and fighting with both contemporary armies and terrorists since the '60s, I'm not sure they'll lose sleep over a potential new breed of terrorists though.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I already explained my objection to DeSantis statement.
However: half of Gazans polled in July strongly or somewhat agreed that "Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders"

"Half of Gazans" is a deceptive way of saying "as long as we only survey this subsection of Palestinians here, they seem to be evenly split on a 2 state solution".

Poll: 93% of Palestinians hold anti-Jewish beliefs

Global survey by ADL reveals that almost half the world does not know that the Holocaust happened; suggests over 1 billion people are anti-Semitic

www.google.com

Meanwhile the ADL says 93% of Palestinians are antisemitic.

And current polls conducted by actual polling institutions like Gallup or Pew say...

Palestinians Lack Faith in Biden, Two-State Solution

Ahead of Hamas' recent attack on Israel, most Palestinians distrusted Biden's ability to mediate peace, and support for a two-state solution dropped to 24%.

news.gallup.com

Only 24% of Palestinians support a 2 state solution...a number likely to drop as younger Palestinians are less likely to support a 2 state solution than Palestinians in general.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The military strategy you describe works when fighting standing armies; it doesn't work when fighting terrorist groups. Unfortunately, Israel's current response to Hamas in Gaza has provided them with a ripe breeding ground for terrorists for a generation, if not longer.

It does work against terrorists....and if you're thinking about Afghanistan, the reason it didn't work there was the Taliban's ability to flee over the southern border into Pakistan.

 

[JosephZ]

It does work against terrorists....

and if you're thinking about Afghanistan, the reason it didn't work there was the Taliban's ability to flee over the southern border into Pakistan.

History says otherwise. Since 1968, fewer than 10% of terrorist groups have been defeated by military force alone and those with religious and/or nationalist motivations are the most likely to survive a military campaign against it. Hamas has somewhere between 15,000 and 40,000 members and isn't confined to just Gaza. It also has a presence in the West Bank, Egypt, and Lebanon.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe checking on the Iranian people’s opinions of Hamas is worth it. Iran bankrolls Hamas which some Iranians feel is at a cost to their own economic needs & also some Iranians are neutral ( or even empathetic) to Israel.

Iran struggling to convince its people about support for Hamas

"Any miscalculation might have severe consequences for the regime" in Iran, an Iranian expert has told Newsweek.

www.newsweek.com

 

[jacks]

History says otherwise. Since 1968, fewer than 10% of terrorist groups have been defeated by military force alone and those with religious and/or nationalist motivations are the most likely to survive a military campaign against it. Hamas has somewhere between 15,000 and 40,000 members and isn't confined to just Gaza. It also has a presence in the West Bank, Egypt, and Lebanon.

I'm sure these statistics are correct. Hopefully we can remain in this rarefied state of limited engagements, that care about civilians and world opinion. However, if we go back to the last all out war (WWII) we see that terrorist's were troublesome, but only slowed the inevitable defeat. When kamikaze planes tried to halt the advance of America through the central and northern pacific, they killed thousands of sailors, however, it did little to stop the march of the US military towards Japan. At that point countries (including the US) where firebombing the cities regardless of civilian causalities. And of course tired of war, nuclear arms were used and thousands more civilians were killed. (Though interestingly not as many as the firebombing that proceeded it.) So yes, as long as there is a concern for collateral damage, terrorists can effectively and with impunity wreak havoc, however once the gloves come off it is really a matter of resources and military might.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Take the gloves off.

 

[Ana the Ist]

History says otherwise. Since 1968, fewer than 10% of terrorist groups have been defeated by military force alone and those with religious and/or nationalist motivations are the most likely to survive a military campaign against it. Hamas has somewhere between 15,000 and 40,000 members and isn't confined to just Gaza. It also has a presence in the West Bank, Egypt, and Lebanon.

I'm not worried about Israel launching an attack on Egypt or Lebanon. They are however, completely justified in removing Hamas from Gaza and the West Bank....by whatever means available.