Immediately after death

[Lost4words]

I love you @Lost4words ! Good doggy!

Woof!!!

 

[Berserk]

Additionally, it would contradict many scriptures if we immediately went be with the Lord.

"Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)."

For 2 reasons all NT scholars recognize that this verse can't be translated, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise:"
(1) It would make "today" foolishly redundant: the thief knows very well that Jesus is speaking today.
(2) More importantly, "the formula "Truly I say to you" can never take a modifier (like "today"). Thus, there are 40 cases in the Gospels, but none with a modifier!

To be absent from the body is to be immediately home with the Lord (no intervening soul sleep!):
"We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)."

"My desire is to depart and (immediately) be with Christ; for that is far better (Phil. 1:23)."
It would hardly be "far better" to depart and enter a long period of soul sleep!

sandman: As for Abrahams bosom…. that parable that Jesus told to the Pharisees was in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs. Jesus coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom” because they (Pharisees) believed in reincarnation.

Nope. You can find no Palestinian Jewish evidence for belief in reincarnation in Jesus' time. Preexistence of the soul, yes, but reincarnation , no!

 

[timothyu]

Too bad punctuation was added centuries later and perhaps wrongly to fit a growing tradition.

 

[Hawkins]

Why did the Pharisees believe in reincarnation?

Pharisees and Jews in majority don't have such a concept. They believed that good souls after Judgment will be moved to a new body, while bad souls are eternally punished. They believed that there will be judgment after death, it doesn't make any sense if souls are allowed to reincarnate.

This is how the Hebrews are addressed,

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

They also believe that Elijah may return as he never tasted death.

By Josephus,

while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

 

[Aaron112]

No. Lazarus was in the grave in soul sleep like everyone else. Then, Jesus resurrected, being the first to ressurect, and He took those who were in the grave in soul sleep, with Him.

I understand you, but "soul sleep" is a mis-nomer that because of traditional wrong definitions is not accurate.

 

[Aaron112]

Thus I believe Paul when he says "to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord" When we die is the judgement, immediately. What do you think?

I believe it is written someplace in Scripture: Today some who are around us are already condemned.

 

[timothyu]

They believed that good souls after Judgment will be moved to a new body

They also believed in possession where a bad soul was cast out of another person but the good souls who improved a persons life were left alone. Casting out spirits was as common then as street vendors.

 

[friend of]

Crazy

 

[sandman]

"Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)."

For 2 reasons all NT scholars recognize that this verse can't be translated, "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise:"
(1) It would make "today" foolishly redundant: the thief knows very well that Jesus is speaking today.
(2) More importantly, "the formula "Truly I say to you" can never take a modifier (like "today"). Thus, there are 40 cases in the Gospels, but none with a modifier!

That is an absurd statement, the only scholars who would agree with what you stated are those who are trying (but failing) to show proof of immediate entrance to eternity.

There is not a single biblical scholar that I have worked with (or know of) who would not acknowledge ….that with the Greek language (actually with many languages) Idiom’s and figures of speech are almost impervious to grammatical structure…… So, your statement → “foolishly redundant” is a linear perspective without taking into consideration idiomatic expressions.

The use of “today” with a preceding verb to introduce or close a statement is nothing but a Semitic idiom intended to intensify the significance and gravity of the statement that will follow or has just been made.

There is a substantial amount of the Semitic idiom “today” in the OT …. Deuteronomy has over 40 itself and the apostle Luke uses it twice in the book of Acts. {Act 20:26, Act 26:2} …it is not without foundation or merit..

But if you want to bang that drum … go ahead….. it only opens you up to a bigger problem, because the words you will or thou shalt are future tense… and you have to explain how Jesus could be in Paradise and in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights as the Word states….then afterwards be on earth for another 40 days….

Then there is paradise…. which will not exist again until Revelation. Paradise is paradise, it is not heaven …paradise will be someplace here on earth as noted in Revelation.

When the resurrection of the just takes place, the malefactor will be resurrected and will be in paradise with Jesus.

The word paradise is the Greek word paradeisos.

In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT) it is used in Genesis_ 2:8 And is translated into English as garden.

Every reference to paradise concerns a place on earth. Heaven is always a place above earth (i.e.) atmospheric, celestial, and beyond that where God Jesus and the angels reside. Original paradise which harbored the tree of life…. is no longer. Final paradise can be noted in Rev 22:1, Rev 21:1-5, …. and as foretold to John in Rev 2:7.

Additionally …. It wasn’t the thief that spoke to Jesus…….both of the thieves cast the same in His (Jesus’s) teeth. (Mat 27:44) It was one of the malefactors (Luk 23:39) that asked Jesus “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”.

To be absent from the body is to be immediately home with the Lord (no intervening soul sleep!):
"We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)."

"My desire is to depart and (immediately) be with Christ; for that is far better (Phil. 1:23)."
It would hardly be "far better" to depart and enter a long period of soul sleep!

Neither of those verses say that we go to Christ …in fact, no place does it say we go to Him …in both “the gathering together unto Him” and “the resurrection of the just and unjust” …. He comes to us.

If we went to Him …..what would the point be of Him coming for us ….. He would get down here and slap himself on the forehead, Oh darn! …I forgot, …. they are already up there ….

In 2Co 4:8-12 Paul by revelation speaks about some of the trials laid in believers by the god of this age. In 4:13-18 he cites the hope of being given everlasting life by the Lord Jesus Christ as the unseen reality that enables believer to endure the adversity in this life.

Chapter 5 continues Paul’s musing through verse 9. …. But 2Co 5:8 does not state that we immediately go to be with the Lord … [5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.] … you added immediately based on your belief. And certainly Paul didn’t believe that based on what he had just stated in 2Co 4:14 Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

And what he had earlier stated in 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The same applies to Phl 1:23 where again you add the word immediately. You have to deal with the context which starts in 1:12……….. Immediately would again contradict not just the above scripture but a boatload of others.

As for soul sleep ..I never mentioned it. That may have originated from Plato. …there is no such thing as soul sleep pertaining to death. Only when a living person sleeps at night could it be referred to as soul sleep …but when a person dies, soul life ceases.

sandman: As for Abrahams bosom…. that parable that Jesus told to the Pharisees was in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs. Jesus coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom” because they (Pharisees) believed in reincarnation.

Nope. You can find no Palestinian Jewish evidence for belief in reincarnation in Jesus' time. Preexistence of the soul, yes, but reincarnation , no!

I can’t really type much more …So …..I will give you the resources to look up information regarding the Pharisees.

I have had to address your post incrementally…Recovering from a cervical fusion that went great ….and then it didn’t … with rare spinal stroke after coming home. So, 2 surgeries in the same day ….Doing great now thanks to God ….but I can only type for so long ….


The Pharisees traditions can be found in the Talmud. Their traditions were passed down by many of the early Christian writings* and…. Greek Apocryphal books of the 1st and 2nd century BC (also contained them.)

*John Lightfoot, in…. “A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica” …. documents their beliefs. (Vol xi, pp, 165 -167 & vol xii, pp 159-168)

*Alfred Edersheim in “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah” refers to these same traditions concerning death and the afterlife.

*Bullinger, E.W. 1960 “selected writings” He devotes three pages of the Pharisees’ tradition on afterlife.

 

[CoreyD]

Matthew 6:9-10

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

Our Father in heaven, your kingdom come.
As in, I pray the day will come, when Satan is gone.

Colossians 1:13
13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Yes, it's Christ's kingdom.
It doesn't say where, the kingdom of God is, in either scripture.

There is a lot of scripture to go through and this really needs its own thread, but I would try to describe Gods Kingdom as, A present reality and/or future realm.

Sounds good.
I think you are right. This topic doesn't cover the dead.
I think this thread is appropriate. You can respond to my post here.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes but this was BEFORE Christ rose again, taking the waiting dead with Him.

Are you saying that after Jesus died nobody is in the graves?
Do you have any scriptural references?

 

[CoreyD]

The essence of the risen is often not thought of as they often assume new life equates to old.. I guess people expect to be among a huge group of naked followers.

Old and saggy ones too. Missing limbs and eyeballs may be there too.
Jesus might have to warn the parents : Rated MATURE 17+.

 

[CoreyD]

No. Lazarus was in the grave in soul sleep like everyone else. Then, Jesus resurrected, being the first to ressurect, and He took those who were in the grave in soul sleep, with Him.

What did Martha mean John 11:24, and what about Jesus' words at John 5:28, 29?
Did Paul not pen the words of Acts 24:15, about twenty (20) years subsequent to Jesus' resurrection?

 

[Berserk]

That is an absurd statement, the only scholars who would agree with what you stated are those who are trying (but failing) to show proof of immediate entrance to eternity.

[Before you read my detailed rebuttal, know that before I posted this, I got down on my knees and prayed for your full recovery.]

Uh, name one Bible translation that translates Luke 23:43: "Truly I tell you today..."

Then there is paradise…. which will not exist again until Revelation. Paradise is paradise, it is not heaven …paradise will be someplace here on earth as noted in Revelation.

When the resurrection of the just takes place, the malefactor will be resurrected and will be in paradise with Jesus.

The word paradise is the Greek word paradeisos.

In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT) it is used in Genesis_ 2:8 And is translated into English as garden.

Every reference to paradise concerns a place on earth. Heaven is always a place above earth (i.e.) atmospheric, celestial, and beyond that where God Jesus and the angels reside. Original paradise which harbored the tree of life…. is no longer. Final paradise can be noted in Rev 22:1, Rev 21:1-5, …. and as foretold to John in Rev 2:7.

Additionally …. It wasn’t the thief that spoke to Jesus…….both of the thieves cast the same in His (Jesus’s) teeth. (Mat 27:44) It was one of the malefactors (Luk 23:39) that asked Jesus “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”.



Neither of those verses say that we go to Christ …in fact, no place does it say we go to Him …in both “the gathering together unto Him” and “the resurrection of the just and unjust” …. He comes to us.

If we went to Him …..what would the point be of Him coming for us ….. He would get down here and slap himself on the forehead, Oh darn! …I forgot, …. they are already up there ….

In 2Co 4:8-12 Paul by revelation speaks about some of the trials laid in believers by the god of this age. In 4:13-18 he cites the hope of being given everlasting life by the Lord Jesus Christ as the unseen reality that enables believer to endure the adversity in this life.

Chapter 5 continues Paul’s musing through verse 9. …. But 2Co 5:8 does not state that we immediately go to be with the Lord … [5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.] … you added immediately based on your belief. And certainly Paul didn’t believe that based on what he had just stated in 2Co 4:14 Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

And what he had earlier stated in 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The same applies to Phl 1:23 where again you add the word immediately.

That is an absurd statement, the only scholars who would agree with what you stated are those who are trying (but failing) to show proof of immediate entrance to eternity.

Uh, can you find even one Bible translation that translates "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise?"The use of “today” with a preceding verb to introduce or close a statement is nothing but a Semitic idiom intended to intensify the significance and gravity of the statement that will follow or has just been made.

the apostle Luke uses it twice in the book of Acts. {Act 20:26, Act 26:2} …it is not without foundation or merit..

Acts 26:2 proves my point, not yours. "semeron" ("today") precedes the verb ("apologeisthai") it modifies just as "semeron" in Luke 23:43 precedes "will be with me!" and 20:26 is different in 3 erspects: (1) The phrase is 'on this day" not "today," and this phrase solemnizes bearing witness to others, a different issue than the one found in Luke 23:43. But here's the point you don't get: in an interpretive dispute scholars accept the translation that follows consistent precedent; and in the 40 Gospel cases of the formula "Truly I tell you" the formula never takes a modifier (like "today").

the words you will or thou shalt are future tense… and you have to explain how Jesus could be in Paradise and in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights as the Word states….

No problem. As Jesus died, he cried: "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit (Luke 23:46)." Prior to His bodily resurrection, then, "in the spirit... He went made proclamation to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19)" and became present, fully conscious, with the thief in Paradise.

Paradise is paradise, it is not heaven …paradise will be someplace here on earth as noted in Revelation.

Nope. Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd heaven (2 Cor. 12:2, 4). Paul agrees with the Jewish location of Paradise in the 3rd heaven (see 2 Enoch 8:1-3; Apocalypse of Moses 40:2).

And what he had earlier stated in 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You are apparently under the illusion that our resurrection with a spiritual body at Christ's 2nd Coming precludes being with Christ, fully conscious, immediately after death. Either both are true or Paul's changes his mind as his ministry progresses.

The same applies to Phl 1:23 where again you add the word immediately.

Paul insists that to "depart and be with Christ... is far better (Phil. 1:23)." It would only be "far better" if he were immediately with Christ after death. And you duck Paul's wish in 2 Cor. 5:8: "I'd rather be away from the body and (immediately) at home with the Lord." Paul's wish makes no sense if there is a long delay before he is with the Lord.

 

[friend of]

Are you saying that after Jesus died nobody is in the graves?
Do you have any scriptural references?

No. They die but don't stay asleep in the graves anymore because Christ rose again taking them with Him to heaven where the dead now are, before God. They comprise the "great cloud of witnesses" in heaven looking down on Earth.

 

[CoreyD]

No. They die but don't stay asleep in the graves anymore because Christ rose again taking them with Him to heaven where the dead now are, before God. They comprise the "great cloud of witnesses" in heaven looking down on Earth.

Do you have any scriptural references?

 

[friend of]

Do you have any scriptural references?

Scriptural references that Christ rose from the dead?

 

[CoreyD]

Scriptural references that Christ rose from the dead?

Do you have any scriptural references for your words in the post where I asked the question?

 

[friend of]

Do you have any scriptural references for your words in the post where I asked the question?

I don't know if I should reveal that right now.

 

[CoreyD]

I don't know if I should reveal that right now.

It's up to you.
The Bible is not the authority for most people, so I understand. It's something I meet quite often.