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Theistic evolution and the nature of God

Derf

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In Genesis 2:5 it says no rain because there was no man to till the ground. People who push the rain after flood is neglecting that statement of no man when it didn't rain.
So you're saying that man tilling the ground caused it to rain?? That sounds kind of weird.
Two seasons in tropical climate doesn't equal the middle east area. Where the scripture was written. There's different seasons pretty much all over the planet.
Remember that Adam and Eve didn't wear clothes at first. Do you think it makes sense that God didn't give them clothes, a sign of of His protection, until AFTER they sinned, if it was going to be freezing some parts of the year? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's at least some evidence to the contrary.
 
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stevevw

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Are we changing definitions in mid-stream? Are you now saying that body plan is NOT equal to "kind"? Remember, you said that for those who share a body plan (all vertebrates, for example), that reproduce after their "kind", all came from the same initial creature (or couple).
Yes but that applied to the initial evolution of creatures. We also have to establish what Kind actually means. Is is species, genera or family. The point was if we take it as species then the Ark would not be big enough as there are over 30,000 species and thats not including extinct ones. So this number had to have been reduced and the only way I think this can be done is that only representatives of certain animal groups were taken like a big cat form can represent many cat species.

The other problem I think is if this is the case then how could there be such a rapid speciation after the flood to produce the number of species we have today. There would not be enough time and also speciation supports evolution. So if it can happen after the flood why couldn't it have happened for creation itself.
But in the scriptures we are told that birds have different kinds (plural), cattle have different kinds (plural), and creeping things (probably reptiles, but maybe including insects and worms) have different kinds (plural). Now, if there were only a single vertebrate kind, based on body plans, and Noah only had to bring in a pair of that single kind (only seven of the clean...wait a sec, how can there be a distinction between clean kinds and unclean kinds if there is only one kind?)
The one Kind of creature I was talking about in early evolution (ancestor) applied to early evolution. By the time of Noah many creatures were established. So obviously more than one type of animal was taken to re-establish populations rather than begin again. If as some people claim that the animal kingdom was quickly re-established then there must have been many different Kinds representing each body plan without having to take all as the Ark was too small.
The size of insects makes them un-noteworthy for determining the size needed for the ark. Especially when you read more of the wiki article (here's the link: Body plan - Wikipedia):
I wasn't talking about fitting insects into the Ark but how they survives as many need particular ecosystems to ssurvive which would not be on the Ark. Or maybe they survives in small number somewhere on floating islands or carcasses and vegetation.
Among the pioneering zoologists, Linnaeus identified two body plans outside the vertebrates; Cuvier identified three; and Haeckel had four, as well as the Protista with eight more, for a total of twelve. For comparison, the number of phyla recognised by modern zoologists has risen to 36.[1]
Yes but even within those different body plans are similar traits like wings for birds, insects, bats ect or eyes for insects, squids and humans. Many of the genetic information is similar made from a small set of similar developmental programs.

The development of body plans in all animals is controlled by a remarkably small number of genes -- and those genes are virtually identical in all animals. Animals descended from a single common ancestor that passed along to them a set of homeobox genes, used to build a wide variety of forms from just a few basic body plans.

So, let's add 72 insects/worms to the ark (maybe a few more, as some of them might be "clean animals", and therefore there would be 7). That would take up perhaps a space similar to a chest of drawers, and they would all still be quite comfortable.
Fair enough. They would have to include some eccosystem as well. Like an ant farm or a bees nest times all those insects, worms and bugs ect. But I think Horizontal gene transfer is fairly common in insects so they don't have too much trouble changing form. In fact there is high HGT between plants and insects as well.
Aquatic creatures aren't included:
[Gen 6:20 KJV] Of fowls after their kind (not aquatic), and of cattle after their kind (not aquatic), of every creeping thing of the earth (not aquatic) after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.

This makes sense. Would you protect aquatic creatures from a flood by bringing them on a dry boat??
Yes it makes sense that many aquatic creatures would have survive, enough to replenish the oceans and waterways.
[Gen 7:22 KJV] All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died. (not aquatic)
[Gen 7:23 KJV] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground (not aquatic), both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

Would you like to admit that your definition of "kind" is not a biblical definition? And therefore, your assertion that body plans all came from a single common ancestor is not a biblical concept?
Noahs Flood doesn't address this so I cannot see how that follows. I have already mentioned that there is a question mark of what Kinds mean. I don't think it means species as the Ark would not fit 2 of every species. So that in itself tells us that some species were not saved and that there are some species today that were not on the Ark.
 
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Derf

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Yes but that applied to the initial evolution of creatures. We also have to establish what Kind actually means. Is is species, genera or family. The point was if we take it as species then the Ark would not be big enough as there are over 30,000 species and thats not including extinct ones. So this number had to have been reduced and the only way I think this can be done is that only representatives of certain animal groups were taken like a big cat form can represent many cat species.
Exactly, despite your reluctance to use the word. And the phrase "after their kind" employs the same language used in Genesis to describe how these kinds came about in the first place, specifically that they stay within the "kind" when they reproduce.
The other problem I think is if this is the case then how could there be such a rapid speciation after the flood to produce the number of species we have today. There would not be enough time and also speciation supports evolution.
"There would not be enough time" and "speciation supports evolution" are contradictory statements.

So if it can happen after the flood why couldn't it have happened for creation itself.
It could happen. From a starting number of "kinds", derivative species would develop. But the bible explicitly tells us of multiple kinds within what you are calling a single body plan. And that is not evolution.

The one Kind of creature I was talking about in early evolution (ancestor) applied to early evolution.
Which isn't biblical, as I've shown. Early evolution and reproduction after a particular "kind" are antithetical concepts. If it's anti-biblical, Christians should disavow it.

By the time of Noah many creatures were established.
So obviously more than one type of animal was taken to re-establish populations rather than begin again. If as some people claim that the animal kingdom was quickly re-established then there must have been many different Kinds representing each body plan without having to take all as the Ark was too small.
Yes. And the variability to re-establish was built in, not relying on random mutations over long periods of time. This is contradictory to evolution as proposed by Darwin.

I wasn't talking about fitting insects into the Ark but how they survives as many need particular ecosystems to ssurvive which would not be on the Ark. Or maybe they survives in small number somewhere on floating islands or carcasses and vegetation.
Ecosystems would have been severely disrupted outside the ark, too. But insects seem capable of rebuilding fairly quickly. And if some species were extinguished, new ones would develop to fill niches, because thats how they were designed by God in the first place.

Yes but even within those different body plans are similar traits like wings for birds, insects, bats ect or eyes for insects, squids and humans. Many of the genetic information is similar made from a small set of similar developmental programs.

The development of body plans in all animals is controlled by a remarkably small number of genes -- and those genes are virtually identical in all animals. Animals descended from a single common ancestor that passed along to them a set of homeobox genes, used to build a wide variety of forms from just a few basic body plans.
And who designed such "developmental programs" that could be used in unrelated kinds? The programs did not evolve. But the theory of evolution requires that they did.

Fair enough. They would have to include some eccosystem as well. Like an ant farm or a bees nest times all those insects, worms and bugs ect. But I think Horizontal gene transfer is fairly common in insects so they don't have too much trouble changing form. In fact there is high HGT between plants and insects as well.

Yes it makes sense that many aquatic creatures would have survive, enough to replenish the oceans and waterways.

Noahs Flood doesn't address this so I cannot see how that follows.
Noah's flood specifically addresses this:
Genesis 6:20 KJV — Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Remember that "cat form" you talked about? That's the same language as Gen 1
Genesis 1:24 KJV — And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

So "kinds" might vary within the group, but not between groups, whatever kinds might mean.

I have already mentioned that there is a question mark of what Kinds mean. I don't think it means species as the Ark would not fit 2 of every species. So that in itself tells us that some species were not saved and that there are some species today that were not on the Ark.
Yes, for sure. Some species were not preserved while all kinds were preserved (presumably), at least of the land animals.
 
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stevevw

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Exactly, despite your reluctance to use the word. And the phrase "after their kind" employs the same language used in Genesis to describe how these kinds came about in the first place, specifically that they stay within the "kind" when they reproduce.
The question then is how far back do we go. Cats and dogs are suppose to have a distant ancestor. There are also other species within the feliforms like mongooses and hyennas and in the caniforms like raccoons and bears.
"There would not be enough time" and "speciation supports evolution" are contradictory statements.
Well yes this is the question I am wondering about. Maybe there were only certain animals on board and the flood was only local. Not sure how different species on distant lands could have spread over water. There must have been land bridges or the distant animals were not part of the Ark.
It could happen. From a starting number of "kinds", derivative species would develop. But the bible explicitly tells us of multiple kinds within what you are calling a single body plan. And that is not evolution.
It would be within evolution that there are multiple KInds with similar body plans. For example when you look at some ancient fish they more or less have a similar layout to land crawling creatures which are not too dissimilar to 4 legged creatures. They all have 4 limbs with digits for example. Except fish and other aquatic creatures have webs and fins. Birds are not too dissimilar to Dinos.
Which isn't biblical, as I've shown. Early evolution and reproduction after a particular "kind" are antithetical concepts. If it's anti-biblical, Christians should disavow it.
I think it depends on whats regarded as variation within a Kind and what is a different Kind. The variation within a KInd may be like with the Catforms other forms we evolution call different species like mongooses and hyennas and the like which then covers are wide variety of creatures that stemmed from the one kind.

Otherwise we are back many different Kinds if we count all these variations as Kinds which would not fit on the Ark.
Yes. And the variability to re-establish was built in, not relying on random mutations over long periods of time. This is contradictory to evolution as proposed by Darwin.
Yes as Neo Darwinism proposed. But now some are updating our understanding and are discovering that there is sort of built in programs that can be switched on and off. Also living things and environments work together rather than being isolated. Theres a degree of plasticity, reciprocity, epigenetics, niche construction which allows living things more control how evolution is directed.
Ecosystems would have been severely disrupted outside the ark, too. But insects seem capable of rebuilding fairly quickly. And if some species were extinguished, new ones would develop to fill niches, because thats how they were designed by God in the first place.
Yes this is especially the case with insects, plants and sea life as there is a higher level of HGT.
And who designed such "developmental programs" that could be used in unrelated kinds? The programs did not evolve. But the theory of evolution requires that they did.
Yes but they sort of evolved in the sense that the Blueprint had to be expressed in new forms. BUt the body plans were laid out early and since then its just variations of that in different ways according to the environment and the living creature itself in how it can put itself in a better position to adapt.

Like a beaver builds a dam rather than adapting to the environment it creates its own environment and this influences the ecosystem around it. But it all seems to work together like it was designed that way.
Noah's flood specifically addresses this:
Genesis 6:20 KJV — Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
So perhaps cattle and creeping things covers a lot of species but the two of every sort is only a small representation of all those different species. Like a creeping thing being an ancestoral reptile of some sort that bore many species.
Remember that "cat form" you talked about? That's the same language as Gen 1
Genesis 1:24 KJV — And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

So "kinds" might vary within the group, but not between groups, whatever kinds might mean.
Yes. Though as mentioned though they are seperate Kinds there is still some crossover between Kinds. Like say a cat kind and a dog kind and other Kinds all have 4 limbs with digits, have a nose, two eyes which seem to have common genetics across KInds like squid eyes are sort of similar to human eyes. So theres a common blueprint overall as well which seems to be repeated and utilized.
Yes, for sure. Some species were not preserved while all kinds were preserved (presumably), at least of the land animals.
I still don't know how distant creatures got to where they are today. Like say the platapus or Kangaroo in Australia and even Aborigines who seem unique just like the the creatures that were isolated. The Platapus sure is a weird Kind or maybe it comes from a duck and beaver lol. But it also is a mammal.
 
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Job 33:6

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No need to add anything to scripture. But where do you get the idea that God was talking about "spiritual" death? If we're referring to Genesis, that concept isn't needed or explicit, so why would you feel the need to add it?
He defined exactly what He meant by death:
[Gen 3:19 KJV] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

In Genesis 2, God points out how Adam would die...if he ate of the fruit. The reverse corollary is that he would not die if he didn't eat. Maybe that's not true, but then we see that Adam had access to the other tree. If access to the tree of life would result in immortality after the fall, why would it do less before the fall? The very information you provide that says Adam "could become" immortal after the fall is the very information already provided that he could have been immortal before.

Obviously we aren't talking about a man who cannot die, because eating from the tree of knowledge would cause him to die, according to God, but we are talking about a man who would not die...unless he ate. Growing old wouldn't bring death. Just sin.
[Rom 5:12 KJV] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Does that verse make any sense if death was the end result of life before sin entered the world?
The Bible says how God implemented His curse. That Adam would die, not because he ate of the tree of wisdom and lost immortality. But rather because he was removed from the garden, and could no longer eat of the tree of life which extended his otherwise mortal life.

Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent them forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which they were taken. He drove out the humans, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22‭-‬24
 
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Derf

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The Bible says how God implemented His curse. That Adam would die, not because he ate of the tree of wisdom and lost immortality. But rather because he was removed from the garden, and could no longer eat of the tree of life which extended his otherwise mortal life.

Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent them forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which they were taken. He drove out the humans, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22‭-‬24
Right. That's how He implemented it, but the cause, the sin being punished, was eating of the other tree. And the immortality we will eventually enjoy, if Jesus is our Lord, will once again involve the tree of life.
Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:14 KJV — Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 
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Job 33:6

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No need to add anything to scripture. But where do you get the idea that God was talking about "spiritual" death? If we're referring to Genesis, that concept isn't needed or explicit, so why would you feel the need to add it?
He defined exactly what He meant by death:
[Gen 3:19 KJV] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

In Genesis 2, God points out how Adam would die...if he ate of the fruit. The reverse corollary is that he would not die if he didn't eat. Maybe that's not true, but then we see that Adam had access to the other tree. If access to the tree of life would result in immortality after the fall, why would it do less before the fall? The very information you provide that says Adam "could become" immortal after the fall is the very information already provided that he could have been immortal before.

Obviously we aren't talking about a man who cannot die, because eating from the tree of knowledge would cause him to die, according to God, but we are talking about a man who would not die...unless he ate. Growing old wouldn't bring death. Just sin.
[Rom 5:12 KJV] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Does that verse make any sense if death was the end result of life before sin entered the world?
The Bible says how God implemented His curse. That Adam would die, not because he ate of the tree of wisdom and lost immortality. But rather because he was removed from the garden, and could no longer eat of the tree of life.
Right. That's how He implemented it, but the cause, the sin being punished, was eating of the other tree. And the immortality we will eventually enjoy, if Jesus is our Lord, will once again involve the tree of life.
Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:14 KJV — Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Well sure, but when it comes to physical death vs spiritual, there's nothing in Genesis or revelation that implies physical immortality.

Adam and Eve did not lose immortality when they ate of the tree of wisdom. They actually never had immortality to begin with. Hence why they died after their removal from the tree of life.
 
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Derf

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The Bible says how God implemented His curse. That Adam would die, not because he ate of the tree of wisdom and lost immortality. But rather because he was removed from the garden, and could no longer eat of the tree of life.

Well sure, but when it comes to physical death vs spiritual, there's nothing in Genesis or revelation that implies physical immortality.

Adam and Eve did not lose immortality when they ate of the tree of wisdom. They actually never had immortality to begin with. Hence why they died after their removal from the tree of life.
To me, it's a distinction without a difference. If they would be living forever before they are of the wrong tree, and they couldn't live forever after, then they had effective immortality and lost it, even if it required eaten of the tree of life every now and then.

Why is this important to you?
 
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Job 33:6

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To me, it's a distinction without a difference. If they would be living forever before they are of the wrong tree, and they couldn't live forever after, then they had effective immortality and lost it, even if it required eaten of the tree of life every now and then.

Why is this important to you?
It's important because it indicates that upon creation, consumption from the tree was the only thing that extended their life.

In ancient near east literature, such trees were not eaten of by animals (fish wouldn't be jumping out of the water to be eating of the fruit for example). In this case, nothing was created immortal in the beginning. And with that, there was death before the fall of those that did not eat of that tree.

And so, death was a natural component of the initial creation.
 
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Job 33:6

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I have a hard time understanding why God tells Adam to do something that is "humanizing animals", unless it is ok to do so.

Animals in nature today do. Have they always?
[Gen 1:30 KJV] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Doesn't the bible tell us the food chain has changed?


Despite the fact that I emphasized a part of that verse where God is telling man to hold animals accountable for killing mankind?

Protecting our livelihood is a moral issue...if we don't, think we end up not being able to feed ourselves and our families.

Yes, that's true...because of how it impacts a fellow human being. If an animal affects a human being in that kind of way, then we art to hold that animal accountable (by killing it). Same with a dangerous dog. We don't kill the owner, we kill the dog (and if the owner won't comply, we punish the owner).

Don't you think we can tell something of God's plan from Genesis 1 and 2?

Or man's inability?? If it relates to the fall of man?

Yes, that's true. But if humans have done something that corrupts all of nature (since nature was under Adam's dominion), then we don't just take current natural processes as what God originally intended.

I tend to think both happen at the same time, but that's a different topic.

yes

probably not

Do you think God is unable to handle such a thing?

Those statements seem to compete against each other.

Will there be rotting leaves in the resurrection? How do you know humans require rotting leaves?

But we have some evidence of God's creation as it used to be, described in Genesis. Have you read about that?

Are you saying that evolution is actually designed into our DNA? Then it's not really evolution, is it?

Of course, we don't know how hostile the planet was from the beginning, except that God actually seemed to think planting a garden would be helpful to sustain His created couple.

It's also worth noting that, mankind is created in the image of God, whereas a gazelle or zebra are not. So it could be seen as a moral issue if an animal kills a human, while not a moral issue if an animal kills another animal. On the basis that mankind is uniquely created in His image.
 
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Derf

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The question then is how far back do we go. Cats and dogs are suppose to have a distant ancestor.
According to whom?
There are also other species within the feliforms like mongooses and hyennas and in the caniforms like raccoons and bears.
Ok.
Well yes this is the question I am wondering about. Maybe there were only certain animals on board and the flood was only local. Not sure how different species on distant lands could have spread over water. There must have been land bridges or the distant animals were not part of the Ark.
Land (or ice) bridges are almost assured during an ice age.
It would be within evolution that there are multiple KInds with similar body plans. For example when you look at some ancient fish they more or less have a similar layout to land crawling creatures which are not too dissimilar to 4 legged creatures. They all have 4 limbs with digits for example. Except fish and other aquatic creatures have webs and fins. Birds are not too dissimilar to Dinos.
And your point is? Are you so wedded to the evolutionary viewpoint that you can't let go of it, even if the scientists are rejecting aspects of it due to lack of or even counter evidence?

I think it depends on whats regarded as variation within a Kind and what is a different Kind. The variation within a KInd may be like with the Catforms other forms we evolution call different species like mongooses and hyennas and the like which then covers are wide variety of creatures that stemmed from the one kind.

Otherwise we are back many different Kinds if we count all these variations as Kinds which would not fit on the Ark.

Yes as Neo Darwinism proposed. But now some are updating our understanding and are discovering that there is sort of built in programs that can be switched on and off.
A built-in program for a characteristic that isn't currently needed is antithetical to Darwinism. It screams design.

Also living things and environments work together rather than being isolated. Theres a degree of plasticity, reciprocity, epigenetics, niche construction which allows living things more control how evolution is directed.
Evolution, by its nature, is undirected except by natural selection, which can't account for the new genetic information. That's where neodarwinism comes in, proposing a mechanism for me genetic information in random mutations. But scientists repeatedly are finding that random mutations are not good at creating new, functional genes.

Yes this is especially the case with insects, plants and sea life as there is a higher level of HGT.

Yes but they sort of evolved in the sense that the Blueprint had to be expressed in new forms.
Blueprints are a design term. Evolution is not a design concept.

BUt the body plans were laid out early and since then its just variations of that in different ways according to the environment and the living creature itself in how it can put itself in a better position to adapt.
Not adapt...die off. Evolution is about unfit creatures dying off. It has no viable mechanism for creating new creatures (new genetic material). None whatsoever.

Like a beaver builds a dam rather than adapting to the environment it creates its own environment and this influences the ecosystem around it. But it all seems to work together like it was designed that way.
Funny...I'd say the exact same thing--and it is antithetical to evolution. Evolutionists like to play the equivocation game, where "evolution" means "change over time" until they need it to mean "universal common ancestor".

So perhaps cattle and creeping things covers a lot of species but the two of every sort is only a small representation of all those different species. Like a creeping thing being an ancestoral reptile of some sort that bore many species.
Sure.
Yes. Though as mentioned though they are seperate Kinds there is still some crossover between Kinds. Like say a cat kind and a dog kind and other Kinds all have 4 limbs with digits, have a nose, two eyes which seem to have common genetics across KInds like squid eyes are sort of similar to human eyes. So theres a common blueprint overall as well which seems to be repeated and utilized.
As any smart engineer or programmer would do.

I still don't know how distant creatures got to where they are today. Like say the platapus or Kangaroo in Australia and even Aborigines who seem unique just like the the creatures that were isolated. The Platapus sure is a weird Kind or maybe it comes from a duck and beaver lol. But it also is a mammal.
Not knowing how they got there is certainly no reason to assume they came from, say, a bird, reptile, or fish, right?
 
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Derf

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It's important because it indicates that upon creation, consumption from the tree was the only thing that extended their life.
That's a supposition not entirely supported by scripture.
In ancient near east literature, such trees were not eaten of by animals (fish wouldn't be jumping out of the water to be eating of the fruit for example). In this case, nothing was created immortal in the beginning.
Supposition.
And with that, there was death before the fall of those that did not eat of that tree.
Supposition.
And so, death was a natural component of the initial creation.
Supposition. This conclusion is merely a restatement of your starting supposition.
It's also worth noting that, mankind is created in the image of God, whereas a gazelle or zebra are not. So it could be seen as a moral issue if an animal kills a human, while not a moral issue if an animal kills another animal. On the basis that mankind is uniquely created in His image.
I assume you are using this to justify the idea that animals were made to be eaters of other animals. But scripture doesn't support the concept. Instead, it says that the plants are food for the animals, at least those not in the sea.
Genesis 1:30 KJV — And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
 
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BeyondET

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So you're saying that man tilling the ground caused it to rain?? That sounds kind of weird.
That's because you weirdly twisted what I said.

There was no rain before the creation of man.
 
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BeyondET

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Remember that Adam and Eve didn't wear clothes at first. Do you think it makes sense that God didn't give them clothes, a sign of of His protection, until AFTER they sinned, if it was going to be freezing some parts of the year? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's at least some evidence to the contrary.
Adam was placed in a particular place. What was beyond that area at first isn't mentioned though it was in a place called Eden and that place was east, a place probably not much different than today and seasons.
 
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stevevw

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According to whom?
They belong to the same group that are both carnivorous and mammals as opposed to other groups.
So here we have different forms (phenotypes) of animals from the same group. Are we to say they are all of the one kind or different kinds.
Land (or ice) bridges are almost assured during an ice age.
I guess so. But was there an ice age around 4,000 years ago. I don't think so. Maybe 10,000 years ago. Plus some of the animals like the duck billed platapus and other awark moving animals could not survive such a journey to fare distant lands as they require specific habitats. Also it seems strange that many of these creatures just happen to have fossils before the flood as though they migrated to the same places they lived before the flood.
And your point is? Are you so wedded to the evolutionary viewpoint that you can't let go of it, even if the scientists are rejecting aspects of it due to lack of or even counter evidence?
No I am just making an observation that there is a common body plan between even genera which then begs the question what is a Kind. Maybe fish, birds and land animals are different kinds but within them are many species with similar forms which make it hard to determine what a Kind is. It may be that a Kind can produce many different species.
A built-in program for a characteristic that isn't currently needed is antithetical to Darwinism. It screams design.
Yes its antithetical to Neo Darwinism though Dawkins says evolution has the appearence of design. I would doubt many of the supporters of the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis would say its design by God though nonetheless designed.
Evolution, by its nature, is undirected except by natural selection, which can't account for the new genetic information. That's where neodarwinism comes in, proposing a mechanism for me genetic information in random mutations. But scientists repeatedly are finding that random mutations are not good at creating new, functional genes.
Or they are finding mutations are not so random. That development is geared to certain outcomes over others. That creatures have a degree of natural plasticity in their phenotypes which adapt to environments and that living things are not passive being acted upon by natural selection but can direct their own evolution through changing environments and behaviour. In other words God also installed natural abilities within genetics and development which allow c reatures to live in changing environments.
Blueprints are a design term. Evolution is not a design concept.
That seems strange considering that Theistic evolution is said to be Gods way of creation. How could Gods way of creation not involve some design.
Not adapt...die off. Evolution is about unfit creatures dying off. It has no viable mechanism for creating new creatures (new genetic material). None whatsoever.
Most of todays body plans appeared relatively sudden and over a short time during the Cambrian period. Those body plans form the basis for all change since. Some may have dies out but the body plans have more or less remained the same. The genetic info was already there in those body plans and its a case of utilizing them.
Funny...I'd say the exact same thing--and it is antithetical to evolution. Evolutionists like to play the equivocation game, where "evolution" means "change over time" until they need it to mean "universal common ancestor".
Yes
Then if this is the case that an ancestoral Kind bore many species how is this not evolution.
As any smart engineer or programmer would do.
This is the appearence of design Dawkin speaks of except its not appearence, its real.
Not knowing how they got there is certainly no reason to assume they came from, say, a bird, reptile, or fish, right?
No but I don't think evolution works that way anyway. But it does seem to point to those creatures being unique because they were isolated and developed their own features as a result.
 
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Derf

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They belong to the same group that are both carnivorous and mammals as opposed to other groups.

So here we have different forms (phenotypes) of animals from the same group. Are we to say they are all of the one kind or different kinds.
It may be hard to know. Some have suggested that if they can mate successfully and be fertile sometimes, that might show they are if the same kind.

Why do you need to know?
I guess so. But was there an ice age around 4,000 years ago.
Probably.
I don't think so. Maybe 10,000 years ago. Plus some of the animals like the duck billed platapus and other awark moving animals could not survive such a journey to fare distant lands as they require specific habitats.
Not if they are adapting to whatever habitat they go to.
Also it seems strange that many of these creatures just happen to have fossils before the flood as though they migrated to the same places they lived before the flood.
You know which fossils were from the flood and which not?

No I am just making an observation that there is a common body plan between even genera which then begs the question what is a Kind. Maybe fish, birds and land animals are different kinds but within them are many species with similar forms which make it hard to determine what a Kind is. It may be that a Kind can produce many different species.

Yes its antithetical to Neo Darwinism though Dawkins says evolution has the appearence of design. I would doubt many of the supporters of the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis would say its design by God though nonetheless designed.

Or they are finding mutations are not so random. That development is geared to certain outcomes over others. That creatures have a degree of natural plasticity in their phenotypes which adapt to environments and that living things are not passive being acted upon by natural selection
Or by something else, as you point out here:
but can direct their own evolution through changing environments and behaviour. In other words God also installed natural abilities within genetics and development which allow c reatures to live in changing environments.
Have you read of Institute for Creation Research's concept of "Continuous Environmental Tracking"?

That seems strange considering that Theistic evolution is said to be Gods way of creation.
Said by whom? Those who already accept evolution as truth and are trying to find ways for the Bible to support it?
How could Gods way of creation not involve some design.

Most of todays body plans appeared relatively sudden and over a short time during the Cambrian period.
You mean most of those animals died in a short time? Fossils only tell you when they died, not when they appeared.

Those body plans form the basis for all change since. Some may have dies out but the body plans have more or less remained the same. The genetic info was already there in those body plans and its a case of utilizing them.

Yes

Then if this is the case that an ancestoral Kind bore many species how is this not evolution.
Many species within the limits of the design they started with. Evolution says that complexity comes with time and death. What you describe is built-in complexity (don't fall into the eqivocation trap.)

This is the appearence of design Dawkin speaks of except its not appearence, its real.
Correct.

No but I don't think evolution works that way anyway. But it does seem to point to those creatures being unique because they were isolated and developed their own features as a result.
Not without some built-in plan. So they didn't "develop" their own features.
Psalm 100:3 KJV — Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; ...
 
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Derf

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That's because you weirdly twisted what I said.

There was no rain before the creation of man.
Yes, that's true, but was there rain after the creation of man before the flood? Maybe, yet there is evidence in scripture that it didn't start until the flood. The rainbow is the most clear.
Genesis 9:12-17 KJV — And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.


Adam was placed in a particular place. What was beyond that area at first isn't mentioned though it was in a place called Eden and that place was east, a place probably not much different than today and seasons.
There are a few clues about what was there outside Eden.
For instance:
The 4 rivers that went all around the lands of Havillah, Cush, to the east of Assyria, and the Euphrates river started in Eden. So the altitude of Eden must have been fairly high, yet they didn't need clothes. That suggests the climate was less harsh.

The ground needed to be broken up before it would grow food, and it was hard work. Yet that hard-work curse seems to have been alleviated after the flood
Genesis 8:21 KJV — And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Here's where the curse was first applied:
Genesis 3:17-19 KJV — And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
if the curse was lifted at the time of the flood, then it seems like it has something to do with the rain.
 
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Job 33:6

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That's a supposition not entirely supported by scripture.

Supposition.

Supposition.

Supposition. This conclusion is merely a restatement of your starting supposition.

I assume you are using this to justify the idea that animals were made to be eaters of other animals. But scripture doesn't support the concept. Instead, it says that the plants are food for the animals, at least those not in the sea.
Genesis 1:30 KJV — And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Actually, Genesis 1:28 involves permission for man to eat wild fish and birds. That's a false supposition on your part.

God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:28

And nothing wrong with ambiguity in scripture. But my propositions are fully legitimate. In fact, early church fathers such as Saint Augustine and Saint Basil of Caesarea are examples of two early church fathers who believed in animal death before the fall. As did St Thomas Aquinas.

 
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Derf

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Actually, Genesis 1:28 involves permission for man to eat wild fish and birds. That's a false supposition on your part.

God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:28
Then I guess man is also supposed to eat dirt:
Genesis 1:26 KJV — And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


And nothing wrong with ambiguity in scripture. But my propositions are fully legitimate. In fact, early church fathers such as Saint Augustine and Saint Basil of Caesarea are examples of two early church fathers who believed in animal death before the fall. As did St Thomas Aquinas.

It's possible. But you don't get it from scripture.
 
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Job 33:6

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Then I guess man is also supposed to eat dirt:
Genesis 1:26 KJV — And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



It's possible. But you don't get it from scripture.

Then I guess man is also supposed to eat dirt:
Genesis 1:26 KJV — And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



It's possible. But you don't get it from scripture.
Having dominion over wild fish, birds and over the earth doesn't mean that you eat dirt haha.

But it does mean that mankind has full authority to use the earth for mankinds purposes, along with wild fish and birds. Namely in the sense of catching and eating fish. Because obviously ancient isrealites weren't going around making aquariums.

Also, I didn't quote Genesis 1:26, I quoted Genesis 1:28:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:28 KJV

Based on the harshness of the terms, I would say that the text clearly does involve God giving mankind permission to eat meat. It additionally involves mankind receiving permission to use animals for clothing, sacrifices, agriculture etc.

Further support for this understanding comes from Genesis chapter 9, which heavily parallels Genesis chapter 2 and 3.

The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
Genesis 9:2‭-‬3 ESV

The text parallels Genesis 1:28, confirming that 1:28 initially involved the consumption of meat.

 
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