Attack on the Pope by Fr Altman

[WarriorAngel]

I keep telling ya's this is the stuff upsetting the Pope. Divisions and hate going on.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I keep telling ya's this is the stuff upsetting the Pope. Divisions and hate going on.

Are you sure that s not a Martin Short impersonation?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Are you sure that s not a Martin Short impersonation?

My daughter has kept an eye out because his Bishop actually took him off duty and he still wore the collar.

 

[WarriorAngel]

https://www.youtube.com/@CaritasinVeritate1

His page on YouTube.
There are others as well.

It's one thing to do this but another after being told to not act as a priest [using the collar]

 

[WarriorAngel]

Also calling him Bergoglio instead of Pope Francis shows true disrespect.
Disobedience...

This is why the Pope is believing the fruits of the Tridentine is 'being holier' than the Pope, better than him, and themselves speaking apostacy and despite the blatant hate, disrespect and disobedience... what they project they do.
This is but one of many I keep telling yas that you just dont know how much the Pope is hearing and seeing.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

The enemy is obviously unchained and has been attacking the Church the last century but to go after the Steward to have people fallen away is his trickery. Worship style over Love?
This trickery is not new. Centuries ago deaths upon brothers and sisters for the style of which way to cross themselves?

I've been watching the Old Testament movies.
There is one recurring theme, go after the one the Lord has sent and suffer. The Lord is not changed, but longer suffering our sins [because His sacrifice] til He will not anymore.

IF we love the Tridentine and it draws us closer to the Lord [because of the nuances] and yet spew vile hatred and denigration flies into the face of all we profess it provides for us. How does one suggest to kill the Pope filled with vitriol while professing to love others and professing the Tridentine brings him closer to the Lord Who demands obedience and forgiveness and love.
If you love others, pray for them.

What are the fruits we show the world?
Division because of how we practice the faith, or obedience and union despite the different ways to practice the faith?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Pope Leo Xlll's prayer because of his vision.

 

[mourningdove~]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

I'm sorry you feel you must continue to defend your position.
That must be feeling very stressful to you.

Could you maybe just pray to accept that not all others in life see things quite as you do, and then 'let it go'?

But if you decide to preach to the whole forum on how we all should think, I think you could become unpopular.
I know I would quickly become very unpopular, if I were to do so.

As Christians, the Holy Spirit is Our Teacher.
Sometimes He may have us to 'plant' some seeds of truth with others ...
but never to take the shovel and beat the seeds into the ground.
It just isn't His way.

It is the Holy Spirit's role to guide, direct, and correct us when correction is needed.
He may sometimes use us to help steer persons in a better direction, but it remains His 'job' to do the correcting ... not ours.
Learning this about Him has helped to make life less stressful for me, and hopefully, to make me alittle less offensive to others.

May God bless you, @WarriorAngel

 

[Michie]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

The enemy is obviously unchained and has been attacking the Church the last century but to go after the Steward to have people fallen away is his trickery. Worship style over Love?
This trickery is not new. Centuries ago deaths upon brothers and sisters for the style of which way to cross themselves?

I've been watching the Old Testament movies.
There is one recurring theme, go after the one the Lord has sent and suffer. The Lord is not changed, but longer suffering our sins [because His sacrifice] til He will not anymore.

IF we love the Tridentine and it draws us closer to the Lord [because of the nuances] and yet spew vile hatred and denigration flies into the face of all we profess it provides for us. How does one suggest to kill the Pope filled with vitriol while professing to love others and professing the Tridentine brings him closer to the Lord Who demands obedience and forgiveness and love.
If you love others, pray for them.

What are the fruits we show the world?
Division because of how we practice the faith, or obedience and union despite the different ways to practice the faith?

WA, you are a valued member here. People will disagree here and there but that’s just normal. It has nothing to do with being popular or being disrespected. It’s simply just disagreement. People need to point out error when they see it no matter what side of the fence they sit on. Disagreement within the Church does not equal hate. It’s not an either/or proposition. God bless you.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

Who cares about 'popular'? I don't think I am popular but it doesn't get me down for a moment.

You know most people in this forum go to novus ordo masses, don't you? I admit my kids went to a Catholic school that had Latin masses but following the novus ordo. My experience with the 1962 missal is mostly of priests who mumble their way through so I can't even follow along in the missal. And I had three years of high school Latin on top of hearing the TLM exclusively until I was ten years old. But mumbling priests ....

The one thing you do keep raising is obedience. And you are right to do so. Keep doing it. Jesus told us to obey those who sit in Moses' seat. You would have thought he would have said otherwise but he did say to obey them. Obedience would have prevented the Reformation, but no, people justified rebellion.

The enemy is obviously unchained and has been attacking the Church the last century but to go after the Steward to have people fallen away is his trickery.

Satan is unchained. Which confuses us as he appears to be upending the faith. Even the mighty steward is confused. The steward before him abdicated as it was too much for him. It's crazy times. We look to the steward and what he signals is uncertain.

IF we love the Tridentine and it draws us closer to the Lord [because of the nuances] and yet spew vile hatred and denigration flies into the face of all we profess it provides for us. How does one suggest to kill the Pope filled with vitriol while professing to love others and professing the Tridentine brings him closer to the Lord Who demands obedience and forgiveness and love.
If you love others, pray for them.

Fr. Altman used to make some sense. But he's been pushed too far and he's losing it. If we hate the Tridentine and spew vile hatred for those who prefer it are we any better than those who love the Tridentine yet hate the pope? Both things are actively going on in the Church today. It's sad to see.

What are the fruits we show the world?
Division because of how we practice the faith, or obedience and union despite the different ways to practice the faith?

You are right.

How do we address the many wrongs going on in the Church today? Canon law tells us we have a right and may even have a duty to make our concerns known to our bishop and even to the pope. And something IS wrong. The tumultuous 1970's in the Church were just a warm-up for the last ten years and I suppose the next ten years.

We had a sort of liturgical peace break out under popes John Paul and Benedict. Now it's war again, with the opening salvo fired by the pope. We had a sort of doctrinal peace break out under popes John Paul and Benedict. Now it's war again as Germany seeks to lead us into homosexual marriage and cardinals appointed by pope Francis agree that's where we should be going. On so many fronts it is either confusion or clear retreat from things we would have known from the catechism. Now our new cardinals say otherwise.

Fr. Altman says Francis is not Catholic and thus cannot be pope.Calls him Bergoglio. I didn't like it when folks called pope Benedict a rottweiler. I don't like what gets said now. But the plain truth is that almost every Catholic is not a rabid Bergoglio basher and very few spoke of the last pope as a rottweiler. Most of us go to mass, novus ordo at that, pray for the pope under the name of Francis, and to the extent we are even aware of what pope Francis has been saying and doing, we might be a bit confused but we are not at war with him. Those that are at war with him, that hate his guts, that want him dead, they would long since have left OBOB anyhow.

Stick around. You have a necessary voice. Pope Francis drives me buggy. But he's my pope and I cannot just say he isn't. I think he is a bad pope and it will take decades to recover from his reign. It will take even longer if we fracture because of him. For now, I follow Jesus who told me to do what those on Moses' seat tell me to do, but I won't act like them even if they have the authority over me. Obedience when it's hard is meritorious. Obedience when it's easy is pretty much nothing.

 

[mourningdove~]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

Obedience to the pope ... this pope ... is not an easy message to preach.
You must do as you feel lead of the Holy Spirit, but if persons do then not 'engage' with you on the subject?
It is not because you are unpopular. It is just your subject that is.

Personally, it is not good for me to read your threads about obedience to the pope, and the need for us to 'feel sorry' for him.
They make me think about leaving the Church, which is not something I want to think about right now ...

 

[mourningdove~]

Fr. Altman used to make some sense. But he's been pushed too far and he's losing it.

No joke. And very sad to see.

 

[mourningdove~]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

I agree with Michie, that you are a valued member here. So why become scarce?

But I AM thinking about something, and maybe you are thinking about it, too?

The October Synod gathering is fast approaching.
I expect we will see many threads and discussions here during and after the gathering ...
and much of the discussion could be quite critical of comments, decisions, actions made by the pope.

If that is the case, it could get emotionally uncomfortable here for those who zealously support the pope, to read the criticisms.

I'm looking forward to discussions about the gathering with like-minded persons, but don't want to spend post after post in debate.
If I see only debate about the pope and the Synod happening, I'll be disengaging from here till things calm down.
What about you? Have you given this potential situation any thought?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree with Michie, that you are a valued member here. So why become scarce?

But I AM thinking about something, and maybe you are thinking about it, too?

The October Synod gathering is fast approaching.
I expect we will see many threads and discussions here during and after the gathering ...
and much of the discussion could be quite critical of comments, decisions, actions made by the pope.

If that is the case, it could get emotionally uncomfortable here for those who zealously support the pope, to read the criticisms.

I'm looking forward to discussions about the gathering with like-minded persons, but don't want to spend post after post in debate.
If I see only debate about the pope and the Synod happening, I'll be disengaging from here till things calm down.
What about you? Have you given this potential situation any thought?

Since much of the synod will not be reported publicly all we will know of it are official press reports and the odd leak. In other words we won't know all that much. For me then unless there are leaked or officially released bombshells it's not even worth speculating. It will be what it will be. The cast of characters are set, for better or for worse. I hope there are no bombshells, but otherwise not much to even comment about. Once the synod is over the pope gets to turn it into his own document. That could take several months. I will hope that infallibility prevents anything terrible.

My opinion on the Synod on Synodality is that it is an exercise in navel gazing and an opportunity for increasing craziness as the neo-modernists reach for the power to undo the Catholic Church. As such I see it as an opportunity for me to pray more and comment less. I think these are dangerous times to be a Catholic. But then we were born for these times. We need to make the best of them with the graces we have.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Obedience to the pope ... this pope ... is not an easy message to preach.
You must do as you feel lead of the Holy Spirit, but if persons do then not 'engage' with you on the subject?
It is not because you are unpopular. It is just your subject that is.

Personally, it is not good for me to read your threads about obedience to the pope, and the need for us to 'feel sorry' for him.
They make me think about leaving the Church, which is not something I want to think about right now ...

I can't 'feel sorry' for him as I think he knows exactly what he is doing in his own way.

I struggle to be in obedience to him and to stay in communion with him. But then again there have been about ten really bad popes through the history of the Church. Being Catholic is to accept that they were actual popes we would also have had to be in obedience to and be in communion with. I shudder to think of it, but then again when I made my peace with the Catholic Church it was with knowing about those ten or so really bad popes. No pope is perfect. I wish they were but that isn't the historical record. Most of them have been decent, many pretty good, a few great ones. But then we aren't perfect either.

Stay with the Church. Somehow stay in communion with the pope. If he demands obedience do what you can to obey unless it causes you to sin. That was the message of Jesus to say to obey those on the seat of Moses but don't do as they do. It's a challenging time. WarriorAngel has some good and necessary points. We ought not be jumping into schism. We ought not be hating. Pope Francis says he is not afraid of schism. We should be afraid of it, resisting it, maintaining unity, praying for unity and truth in the face of the gates of hell. We win if we persevere. It's going to be crazy hard. Impossible if not for Jesus.

Note in my signature the line from pope John XXIII, when he was troubled. It has helped me a lot. "It's your Church, Lord. I'm going to bed."

 

[mourningdove~]

Stay with the Church. Somehow stay in communion with the pope. If he demands obedience do what you can to obey unless it causes you to sin.

Really you can't know the effect the posts shouting 'obey the pope' have on my heart, my mind, my soul, as a recent revert.
I think maybe Fr. Aultman needed to hear some scoldings about this, but not me.
I'm not doing anything to be 'disobedient' to the pope.
I'm not doing the things Fr. Aultman is doing, nor what Michael Matt, Taylor Marshall, etc., etc., etc., are doing.
I'm really just going about my own business, currently studying the subject of prayer ...

So I don't need to hear the cry to 'repent' of disobedience.
(Remember I was raised before Vatican II; the 'fear of God' was put in us kids back then, when it came to the pope.)
But I was so upset last night, after being in this thread, that I did go and start researching 'obedience to the pope'.
And what a wide assortment of views there is within Catholicism on that subject!

(One video on YouTube/Sensus Fidelium:
Some priest(?) tells listeners to BLINDLY OBEY the pope, no matter how bad the pope is. He actually tells folks to BLINDLY OBEY.
Nearly 'lost my lunch' hearing that ...)

... But how much of a 'disobedient rebel' I must be, if I listen to Sensus Fidelium videos!!!

I laughed and thought ... if I were to go into the local Vatican II progressive church I visit and say "Obey the pope. Blindly if necessary" ...
I think even they would laugh me out of the Church!

Before retiring, I did find more moderate views, like you've expressed, and then some peace was restored to my soul.
But you see, I don't want to wake up one day and discover that I've joined 'a cult'.
I did once 'follow blindly' a group, disregarded my gut feelings, and the subsequent spiritual lessons were very painful.
I learned that hard lesson. It's not one I want to repeat again ...

There are so few posters in this forum ...
not so many readers ...
that I do wonder who these messages to "obey the pope" are intended for?

I really haven't observed any bad, disobedient rebels in this forum ...
except for the occasional guest poster ...
so I don't know who 'the intended audience' is.


You encourage the obedience posts and say they are necessary.
Okay. Perhaps you understand better than I. (Quite possible, in here! )
But since they are not needed by me, I just need to add them to my 'Ignore' list.
They really aren't good for my spiritual well-being right now.

As always, thank you for your very helpful responses to my posts.
I always appreciate them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Really you can't know the effect the posts shouting 'obey the pope' have on my heart, my mind, my soul, as a recent revert.
I think maybe Fr. Aultman needed to hear some scoldings about this, but not me.
I'm not doing anything to be 'disobedient' to the pope.
I'm not doing the things Fr. Aultman is doing, nor what Michael Matt, Taylor Marshall, etc., etc., etc., are doing.
I'm really just going about my own business, currently studying the subject of prayer ...

So I don't need to hear the cry to 'repent' of disobedience.
(Remember I was raised before Vatican II; the 'fear of God' was put in us kids back then, when it came to the pope.)
But I was so upset last night, after being in this thread, that I did go and start researching 'obedience to the pope'.
And what a wide assortment of views there is within Catholicism on that subject!

(One video on YouTube/Sensus Fidelium:
Some priest(?) tells listeners to BLINDLY OBEY the pope, no matter how bad the pope is. He actually tells folks to BLINDLY OBEY.
Nearly 'lost my lunch' hearing that ...)

... But how much of a 'disobedient rebel' I must be, if I listen to Sensus Fidelium videos!!!

I laughed and thought ... if I were to go into the local Vatican II progressive church I visit and say "Obey the pope. Blindly if necessary" ...
I think even they would laugh me out of the Church!

Before retiring, I did find more moderate views, like you've expressed, and then some peace was restored to my soul.
But you see, I don't want to wake up one day and discover that I've joined 'a cult'.
I did once 'follow blindly' a group, disregarded my gut feelings, and the subsequent spiritual lessons were very painful.
I learned that hard lesson. It's not one I want to repeat again ...

There are so few posters in this forum ...
not so many readers ...
that I do wonder who these messages to "obey the pope" are intended for?

I really haven't observed any bad, disobedient rebels in this forum ...
except for the occasional guest poster ...
so I don't know who 'the intended audience' is.


You encourage the obedience posts and say they are necessary.
Okay. Perhaps you understand better than I. (Quite possible, in here! )
But since they are not needed by me, I just need to add them to my 'Ignore' list.
They really aren't good for my spiritual well-being right now.

As always, thank you for your very helpful responses to my posts.
I always appreciate them.

I feel the pain deeply myself. After two very good popes I am shocked by what I see now. Hang in there.

And obedience does not mean agreement. Nor does it mean having to sin, because nobody can command you to sin. Nobody has that much authority.

 

[Emerald1000]

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

The enemy is obviously unchained and has been attacking the Church the last century but to go after the Steward to have people fallen away is his trickery. Worship style over Love?
This trickery is not new. Centuries ago deaths upon brothers and sisters for the style of which way to cross themselves?

I've been watching the Old Testament movies.
There is one recurring theme, go after the one the Lord has sent and suffer. The Lord is not changed, but longer suffering our sins [because His sacrifice] til He will not anymore.

IF we love the Tridentine and it draws us closer to the Lord [because of the nuances] and yet spew vile hatred and denigration flies into the face of all we profess it provides for us. How does one suggest to kill the Pope filled with vitriol while professing to love others and professing the Tridentine brings him closer to the Lord Who demands obedience and forgiveness and love.
If you love others, pray for them.

What are the fruits we show the world?
Division because of how we practice the faith, or obedience and union despite the different ways to practice the faith?

Warrior Angel, take heart. I started participating in online Catholic forums 22 years ago and back then Pope John Paul II was on the nose of the particular conservative set, despite what they claim today. It distressed me back then as well. But fast forward 20 years and that dear Pope is canonized and claimed by the set that once hated him. The same will go for Pope Francis. He is being compared to the worst Popes in history... pffft. The man is holy and blameless in comparison. Don't stress. All will be well eventually.

 

[WarriorAngel]

WA, you are a valued member here. People will disagree here and there but that’s just normal. It has nothing to do with being popular or being disrespected. It’s simply just disagreement. People need to point out error when they see it no matter what side of the fence they sit on. Disagreement within the Church does not equal hate. It’s not an either/or proposition. God bless you.

Thank you.


___________________________________
My stance.
Obey and pray.

I am mere laity. If it is time for a new Pope or if this one is not up to par [which directly disagrees with the Lord] then we know throughout history, the Lord takes them to their rest.
I feel safe in the Church because it is not humans who run it.
It is humans who are on earth, but the Lord is powerful.

If one is to blame for something, pray for them.
It seems simplistic but it is powerful.

That the Lord is allowing the Pope means we don't know everything. It means his heart maybe good whereas we cannot see.
The Lord does not abandon.

YET the serpent will knock out 2/3s of the stars.
The clergy?
As Pope Leo saw in his vision? Hence his prayer.
Or is it also the people.
? I don't know.

AND here is the crux of it.

Obey and be judged on your obedience.
Trust and faith are obedience despite what we 'hear'.
Despite everything, remain in faith, trust and obedience like children who KNOW the Lord is carrying them.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I keep telling ya's this is the stuff upsetting the Pope. Divisions and hate going on.

I'm really disappointed in how Fr. Altman just took a swan dive off the cliff. A few years ago he seemed alright, just a priest with strong opinions. But ever since he was disciplined his defiance has gone through the roof, he's gone full sede. I'm surprised he hasn't joined the SSPX or SSPV at this point.

I liked him in the beginning but it seems something has gone to his head.

My daughter has kept an eye out because his Bishop actually took him off duty and he still wore the collar.

I think he was just removed from his parish but I don't think he was laicized, in which case he still has the right to wear the collar, right?

I know/feel I am not popular [and maybe ought to become scarce here?] because I believe we obey despite disagreement and I do not agree with Pope Francis on science [et al] but I will not profess my love of the Tridentine, which is a way to worship, if I am going to attack and with fervor, the one the whole Church must obey and pray over.

The enemy is obviously unchained and has been attacking the Church the last century but to go after the Steward to have people fallen away is his trickery. Worship style over Love?
This trickery is not new. Centuries ago deaths upon brothers and sisters for the style of which way to cross themselves?

I've been watching the Old Testament movies.
There is one recurring theme, go after the one the Lord has sent and suffer. The Lord is not changed, but longer suffering our sins [because His sacrifice] til He will not anymore.

IF we love the Tridentine and it draws us closer to the Lord [because of the nuances] and yet spew vile hatred and denigration flies into the face of all we profess it provides for us. How does one suggest to kill the Pope filled with vitriol while professing to love others and professing the Tridentine brings him closer to the Lord Who demands obedience and forgiveness and love.
If you love others, pray for them.

What are the fruits we show the world?
Division because of how we practice the faith, or obedience and union despite the different ways to practice the faith?

I hope you don't go anywhere, you're an important voice in our conversations here. This site and this subforum have shrunk over the years, so every loss is felt - and we'd hate to see your activity diminished here.