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The first heresy

Saber Truth Tiger

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in the New American Standard Bible translation, the Hebrew word olam is rendered 435 times as 25 different English words or phrases:5

ageseverlong time
all successiveeverlastingnever
alwaysforeverold
ancientforever and everpermanent
ancient timesforevermorepermanently
continuallastingperpetual
days of oldlongperpetually
eternallong ago
eternitylong past
So which translation do you use in this discussion? Why?


17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Here is a list of translations from Bible Gateway. On the Hebrew word for "abolish" and "fulfill". There aren't many that take your translation of time indefinite.


And then there is this:


Most Hebrew to English translators translate Exodus 31:15-17

First the KJV:
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Then the others:

Exodus 31:15


Exodus 31:16

Most translators translate as perpetual (25 times) or everlasting (seven times). There are other variations that mean basically the same thing as forever. These translations come from men who have studied the Hebrew Scriptures for years and many do not consider the Hebrew word here as temporary. They believe the correct interpretation is perpetual or forever. So why do you choose time indefinite or temporary?
 
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BobRyan

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see post #94, the word has a magnificent breadth of meanings.
kinda reminds us of the New Covenant in Jer 31 and Heb 8 "for the house of Israel and the house of Judah"
 
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BobRyan

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In Acts 13, Acts 15, Acts 17 and Acts 18:4 we see gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath and they are not observing festivals nor are they circumcised and when Paul preaches the gospel to them they ask for "more gospel preaching to be scheduled on the NEXT Sabbath" In Acts 13.

I assume you call acceptance of the Gospel by NT gentiles "ebionism" -- But I don't see how that makes any sense.

In Acts 15 part of the solution for gentiles in the NT church is that they hear Moses preached every Sabbath.
True, they were in Jewish synagogues worshipping with the local Jews
Indeed - the very thing "some " call "heresy" for those gentiles.

No wonder gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8 and so also "all mankind" for Sabbath keeping in Mark 2:27 and in Is 66:23.

Makes perfect sense given Gen 2:2-3 and Exodus 20:11

No wonder this idea of "Sabbath for all mankind" in the moral law of God is affirmed by Pope John Paul II in Dies Domini
And also in "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese - which is promoted as the Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post-VaticanII.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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kinda reminds us of the New Covenant in Jer 31 and Heb 8 "for the house of Israel and the house of Judah"
Here is Jeremiah 31 in context:

31 At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.

7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.

13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the Lord.

15 Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.

18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.

21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.

22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.

25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.

26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.

27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE THESE VERSES

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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In these passages the new covenant is prophesied to be with Israel, not the Gentiles. I don't deny the covenant in the New Testament was for Jewish converts to the new faith and Gentiles but this prophecy in Jeremiah was for Israel. They were to be the recipients of the new covenant but when the Jews rejected Jesus and then Paul, Paul declared that the New Covenant was for Gentiles.

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35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
 
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grafted branch

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kinda reminds us of the New Covenant in Jer 31 and Heb 8 "for the house of Israel and the house of Judah"
Jeremiah 31:35-36 says if the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from before God, Israel ceases from being a nation before God.

The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14-15, they are for signs, seasons, days, and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

In Isaiah 60:19-20 the sun is no longer the light by day, neither the moon.

How can Israel be a nation when the ordinances are not before God in the New Heaven New Earth? Or do you see Israel being used as a name (not a nation) that refers to believers?
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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Jeremiah 31:35-36 says if the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from before God, Israel ceases from being a nation before God.

The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14-15, they are for signs, seasons, days, and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

In Isaiah 60:19-20 the sun is no longer the light by day, neither the moon.

How can Israel be a nation when the ordinances are not before God in the New Heaven New Earth? Or do you see Israel being used as a name (not a nation) that refers to believers?
There was a church that taught that true Christians are spiritual Israel. They claimed that all remaining prophecies regarding Israel would happen to the true Christians in that Church. Most Christians do not believe that, but when they made that claim (in the 80s) most Christians I knew did not believe that. They believed the restoration of Israel in Palestine in 1948 triggered the countdown to Jesus's return to earth. It has now been 75 years and Jesus hasn't returned yet. But there are still millions from that 1948 date alive on earth today. So when the sun fails to give her light and when the moon ceases to shine then Israel would cease from being a nation. I don't fully understand this prophecy in Jeremiah 31 so I can't be dogmatic on my answer.
 
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grafted branch

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There was a church that taught that true Christians are spiritual Israel. They claimed that all remaining prophecies regarding Israel would happen to the true Christians in that Church. Most Christians do not believe that, but when they made that claim (in the 80s) most Christians I knew did not believe that. They believed the restoration of Israel in Palestine in 1948 triggered the countdown to Jesus's return to earth. It has now been 75 years and Jesus hasn't returned yet. But there are still millions from that 1948 date alive on earth today. So when the sun fails to give her light and when the moon ceases to shine then Israel would cease from being a nation. I don't fully understand this prophecy in Jeremiah 31 so I can't be dogmatic on my answer.
Ok, thanks for your input on this. I was thinking that if Israel does cease to be a nation then there can’t be any unconditional eternal promises made to national Israel. This may be one of the reasons for the spiritual Israel idea.

In Revelation 21:23 we also see that New Jerusalem has no need of the sun or moon, and in Revelation 21:26 the glory and honor of the nations are brought into it. It does appear that there will still be nations, maybe just not the nation of Israel? The word nations is <1484> ethnos.
 
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Studyman

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I know it's the full list because of what the text says, which is "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to not burden you with anything beyond the following requirements."

So then, in your religion, there is no need for Gentiles to Love our Neighbor as ourselves, as Moses teaches, or Love God with all our heart, as Moses teaches. That the only instruction for Gentiles is not to eat blood or eat animals which have not been dispatched according to the Law of Moses, or not to partake with images of God after the likeness of anything under heaven, according to the Law of Moses, or from fornication, which includes adultery and whoredoms, according to the Law of Moses.

And why do the Apostles then promote that the Gentiles continue to hear Moses on the Sabbath days, as they had already been doing since long before Acts 15?

What if Jesus was right about the Pharisees? And the "Yoke" they placed on the necks of the fathers, was NOT God's Law, but their own Commandments they called the Law of Moses?

What if God wanted them to hear Moses being read on the Sabbath Days, like Jesus instructed them to do before He was murdered?

I know you are convinced that Acts 15 should be separated from the rest of the entire Bible, and used as a standalone chapter to prove God placed a Yoke on the necks of HIS Own People. And you will not be persuaded otherwise, because Jesus told me.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But for those reading along, is it wise to ignore the Words of the Christ of the Bible, just to prop up popular religious philosophy?
 
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ozso

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Yeah that verse also says from new moon to new moon which SDA do not observe the new moon feasts and they agree that the new moon feasts are abolished according to Colossians 2:16. So if this supposed to be an example of what we are expected to observe in the new Earth then it’s not lining up both scripture and what the SDA teaches. So the SDA is actually ignoring half of that verse and only using the portion that appears to support their theology. What the verse is actually saying that that we will worship from month to month and from Saturday to Saturday or in other words we will worship everyday.
That gets pointed out every time that half verse is used. And it's been used innumerable times.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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That gets pointed out every time that half verse is used. And it's been used innumerable times.
I have no complaints about observing the new moons when that happens. I do need to study more though on what observing the new moon requires. I know the ancient Israelites did not work on the new moons so I guess I could do that too. There is nothing about serving Yahweh on the new moons that bother me. But this is now on my long list of to do items. I want to know more about observing the new moons. I don't think the sacrifices the priests performed when Israel kept the new moons will be around anymore. But I will study more. In the Millenium it will be much easier to worship Yahweh than it is now.
 
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grafted branch

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But for those reading along, is it wise to ignore the Words of the Christ of the Bible, just to prop up popular religious philosophy?
I’m reading along, I almost always just look at eschatology but this thread caught my eye.


At the council at Jerusalem, in Acts 15:20 James gives the rules for Gentiles which doesn’t include the rules for the Sabbath. Acts 15:21 declares that Moses is being read in the synagogue every sabbath.

It’s my understanding that the possibility exists that services were held on both Saturday and Sunday in the synagogue.


Also in Galatians 2:9 there is an agreement that James, Peter, and John go to the circumcision while Paul goes to the Gentiles.

I don’t see where this agreement ever ended, should we read the books written by James, Peter, and John with the understanding that the audience they are addressing are Jews not Gentiles?
 
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ozso

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I have no complaints about observing the new moons when that happens. I do need to study more though on what observing the new moon requires. I know the ancient Israelites did not work on the new moons so I guess I could do that too. There is nothing about serving Yahweh on the new moons that bother me. But this is now on my long list of to do items. I want to know more about observing the new moons. I don't think the sacrifices the priests performed when Israel kept the new moons will be around anymore. But I will study more. In the Millenium it will be much easier to worship Yahweh than it is now.
Isaiah 66:23 isn't talking about observing new moons or the sabbath. The verse is saying that from month to month and week to week all mankind will come and bow down before the Lord.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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Isaiah 66:23 isn't talking about observing new moons or the sabbath. The verse is saying that from month to month and week to week all mankind will come and bow down before the Lord.
What day of the month is it talking about? The new moon, the half moon, or the full moon? When, at what period of the month do the worshippers come to Jerusalem? And, what day of the week are we to come to Jerusalem? Wednesday? Friday? Or could it be Saturday?
 
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ozso

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What day of the month is it talking about? The new moon, the half moon, or the full moon? When, at what period of the month do the worshippers come to Jerusalem? And, what day of the week are we to come to Jerusalem? Wednesday? Friday? Or could it be Saturday?
The beginning of each month is based on the appearance of the new moon. The verse is talking about the new heavens and the new earth, and is saying at all times for all time all mankind will come and bow down before the Lord.

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Isaiah 66:22-24
 
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BNR32FAN

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So then, in your religion, there is no need for Gentiles to Love our Neighbor as ourselves, as Moses teaches, or Love God with all our heart, as Moses teaches. That the only instruction for Gentiles is not to eat blood or eat animals which have not been dispatched according to the Law of Moses, or not to partake with images of God after the likeness of anything under heaven, according to the Law of Moses, or from fornication, which includes adultery and whoredoms, according to the Law of Moses.

And why do the Apostles then promote that the Gentiles continue to hear Moses on the Sabbath days, as they had already been doing since long before Acts 15?

What if Jesus was right about the Pharisees? And the "Yoke" they placed on the necks of the fathers, was NOT God's Law, but their own Commandments they called the Law of Moses?

What if God wanted them to hear Moses being read on the Sabbath Days, like Jesus instructed them to do before He was murdered?

I know you are convinced that Acts 15 should be separated from the rest of the entire Bible, and used as a standalone chapter to prove God placed a Yoke on the necks of HIS Own People. And you will not be persuaded otherwise, because Jesus told me.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But for those reading along, is it wise to ignore the Words of the Christ of the Bible, just to prop up popular religious philosophy?
Jesus never told the apostles to read Moses to anyone during His ministry. Jesus was quoting what Abraham said to Lazarus, that’s why there’s a lower case “h” in the word “he”.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What day of the month is it talking about? The new moon, the half moon, or the full moon? When, at what period of the month do the worshippers come to Jerusalem? And, what day of the week are we to come to Jerusalem? Wednesday? Friday? Or could it be Saturday?
There is only one word for Saturday in the Hebrew language, it is Shabbat. But anytime you’re using the words “from” and “to” in reference to two time frames it always includes the entire duration of time between those two time frames.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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The beginning of each month is based on the appearance of the new moon. The verse is talking about the new heavens and the new earth, and is saying at all times for all time all mankind will come and bow down before the Lord.
Prove it. Prove that God doesn't literally mean every new moon and sabbath but just means for all times mankind will come and bow down before Yahweh without regard to either the new moon or the Sabbath. Why would Yahweh say from "new moon to new moon" and from "sabbath to sabbath" if he meant to say, but neglected to do so, that means that mankind would come to worship at all times. I know we shall all worship Yahweh every day in the new heavens and the new earth but Yahweh specified that from one new moon to the other and from one sabbath to the other mankind would come. There is some reason he specified new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath. Why do you think he didn't mean it literally? Scripture please.
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Isaiah 66:22-24
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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There is only one word for Saturday in the Hebrew language, it is Shabbat. But anytime you’re using the words “from” and “to” in reference to two time frames it always includes the entire duration of time between those two time frames.
Always? Of course, if I worship Yahweh every Sabbath and I say I rest from Sabbath to Sabbath that doesn't mean I rest all the days in between. I do my work for six days and from Sabbath to Sabbath I rest. You work six days and every Sabbath, from Sabbath to Sabbath, you rest and spend the day worshiping God. It doesn't mean I spend the six days in between resting and worshiping God and doing no work. I work six days, and then every Sabbath Day,, from Sabbath to Sabbath I worship God. It's not that difficult.
 
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ozso

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Prove it. Prove that God doesn't literally mean every new moon and sabbath but just means for all times mankind will come and bow down before Yahweh without regard to either the new moon or the Sabbath. Why would Yahweh say from "new moon to new moon" and from "sabbath to sabbath" if he meant to say, but neglected to do so, that means that mankind would come to worship at all times. I know we shall all worship Yahweh every day in the new heavens and the new earth but Yahweh specified that from one new moon to the other and from one sabbath to the other mankind would come. There is some reason he specified new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath. Why do you think he didn't mean it literally? Scripture please.
The Hebrew calendar calculates months from one new moon to the next, and weeks from one sabbath to the next, to this very day.
 
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Saber Truth Tiger

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The Hebrew calendar calculates months from one new moon to the next, and weeks from one sabbath to the next, to this very day.
The Hebrew calendar has undergone some changes from Jesus's day to our day. In Jesus day the evening the thin crescent of the moon was spotted in the western sky observers would appear before the Sanhedrin and report what they saw. Then, the first day of the month would begin as the sun set. Today's Jewish calendar is done by computation and the day of the molad begins the new month, not the thin visible crescent of the new moon visible in the western sky after the molad. The first day of the week to the seventh day (Sabbath) is a fulll week in the Jewish calendar. The scripture teaches us that every Sabbath, and not every Wednesday to Wednesday or Friday to Friday, but every Sabbath to Sabbath mankind will observe the Sabbath. The other six days are work days. You do your job from Sunday to Friday and then every Sabbath, from Sabbath to Sabbath you have a day set aside for religious purposes, such as Bible Study, meditation, worshiping with other believers, prayer, and so on. That's what the text in Isaiah 66:22-24 is talking about.

Let's look at it closer:

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Here, Yahweh is promising the new heavens and the new earth shall remain before Him and so shall Israel's seed and their name will remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

From one new moon to the other, and from one Sabbath to another, shall ALL flesh come to worship before me. This is talking about any day of the month or just any day of the week. It specifically says new moon to new moon and Sabbath to Sabbath. It is the Sabbath that is important here because the text tells us mankind shall COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE YAHWEH on the Sabbath. It doesn't mention any other day of the week. In truth, mankind need not wait until Saturday to worship Yahweh, he can worship God any day he wants to. But Yahweh stresses that on the Sabbath (each Sabbath) mankind shall come to worship him. They work the remaining six days in between. Doing your work in six days was part of the commandment to Israel. You are supposed to worship God every day but you still did all your work on six of those days and you had one day in the week set aside to devote entirely to Yahweh.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

At this time, for some reason I don't know, there are dead bodies that can be seen. What these people did during the millenium is anyone's guess because I sure don't know why there are dead bodies being eating by worms.
 
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