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Is John Mcarthur guilty of heresy?

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ozso

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This discussion isn't about names; it is about Jesus being God.
As a Protestant I'm explaining why a lot of Protestants are thrown off by "mother of God" vs "mother of Jesus" or "mother of Christ" - which is what the discussion is about.
 
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ozso

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No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 1:18 ESV

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 1:18 NASB

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known.
John 1:18 NRSV-CE

John 1:18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
Now compare that to the vast number of times "God" is used in reference to the Godhead or the Father.
 
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The Liturgist

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These some/many are who? They would not be Catholics, except perhaps in a case of terrible catechesis and very poorly formed faith. They would not be Orthodox except in similar cases of terrible catechesis and very poorly formed faith. So far the ones who have asserted this kind of thing are evangelicals who have been taught by men such as John MacArthur to misunderstand Catholic teaching by asserting that "mother of God" implies that Mary is above God. That is a consequence of the heresy that John MacArthur presents and misconstruing what Catholic Church teaching truly is.

I’ve never heard of a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran or anyone else who is non Nestorian and believes the blessed Virgin Mary is Mother of God, who thinks that she is a goddess who gave birth to the trinity.
 
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The Liturgist

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As a Protestant I'm explaining why a lot of Protestants are thrown off by "mother of God" vs "mother of Jesus" or "mother of Christ" - which is what the discussion is about.

Only a minority of Protestants are thrown off by it. The largest Protestant denominational groupings, such as the Anglicans (including the Anglican Communion, the Global South and the Continuing Anglicans in the US) and Lutherans and also any Calvinists who pay attention to what John Calvin actually taught, acknowledge the status of the Virgin Mary as Theotokos. This is also why one frequently finds Protestant churches dedicated to St. Mary.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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These some/many are who? They would not be Catholics, except perhaps in a case of terrible catechesis and very poorly formed faith. They would not be Orthodox except in similar cases of terrible catechesis and very poorly formed faith. So far the ones who have asserted this kind of thing are evangelicals who have been taught by men such as John MacArthur to misunderstand Catholic teaching by asserting that "mother of God" implies that Mary is above God. That is a consequence of the heresy that John MacArthur presents and misconstruing what Catholic Church teaching truly is.
What catholic teaching was.

Look can we get this into proportion. JM is saying what most protestants have said for hundreds of years. An easy looking win may be almost irrelevant rather than the disaster area - by itself - that is being implied by neglect of highlighting the wider context.

And Mexico and the Philippines, which JM is clearly aiming at, as well as other countries, don't have much catechesis or formation (leaving a vacuum).

Where were the catholics, and the restorationists, and the dominionists, the body theologians, and the consumerist camp promoters, when JM was almost the only big personality criticising the Kansas Five?

These are the people who say their line is what attracts people to the churches.

Christians should use logical prioritisation. If you want to put people's knowledge of Holy Spirit right (He is the one Whom Christ sent at Ascension to comfort us) there are more direct means than the puzzling area of Mary. Protestants only disrespect Mary when goaded.

Because of Holy Spirit we are meant to bear Christ to each other. The Kansas Five, the dominionists, the restorationists, the body theologians, want to stop that, to the extent of faking Holy Spirit and faking ministry.

Am I to understand some of the "defenders of Christ" have quietly demoted Holy Spirit?

Not enough other big figures took JM's cue to undertake their own discernment and act accordingly to defend us. At CF we need to share far more trenchant analyses of graver distortions.
 
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The Liturgist

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Now compare that to the vast number of times "God" is used in reference to the Godhead or the Father.

This is wrong for two reasons, firstly, because any reference to the Father is also a reference to the Son. Secondly most references to the Lord in the Old Testameent are clearly Christological rather than Patrological.

Indeed no one actually knew about the Father until Christ taught them about Him (John 1:18) they knew about God and the Holy Spirit, but did not know that the Holy Spirit was a person of the Trinity, or that God had multiple persons, and that the other two were God the Father who had a son who was also God. And in most, possibly all, instances in the Old Testament where someone interacted with God it was with Christ, since he alone was incarnate and able to Walk around the Garden of Eden. It is not a coincidence that Jesus Christ is referred to as Lord and God in the Old Testament is routinely referred to simply as “the Lord.”

Now you might ask how it was that our Lord was present in the Garden of Eden when he only became incarnate around 6 BC. The answer is that Christ after ascending to Heaven resumed his eternal existence, and since God is eternal, the past and the future aren‘t concepts God has to deal with; God created time as well as space and everything in spacetime, and is everywhere and at all times present. And he is also omniscient. So it doesn’t even make sense to talk about Christ before and after the incarnation, ior about the “pre-incarnate Christ” other than that in his divine nature He always existed outside of time but his incarnation took place at a specific time, but with His ascension the resurrected luminous humanity of Christ became omnipresent through all ages of ages. Thus he is as we speak judging us at the Parousia and with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses in the past, since time is a subjective human experience, that Christ has experienced as a man, but as God, Christ is also free from its constraints.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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As a Protestant I'm explaining why a lot of Protestants are thrown off by "mother of God" vs "mother of Jesus" or "mother of Christ" - which is what the discussion is about.
We know this; they too are free to derive senses from texts in whatever ways are possible. Why do the same sort of people not have a trenchant analysis of the restorationists, dominionists and body theologians who prevent us having Holy Spirit (= God) belief to bear Christ (= God) to each other? Is it because they are afraid the listed factions are the only means to "attract" attenders to their churches?
 
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The Liturgist

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What catholic teaching was.

Look can we get this into proportion. JM is saying what most protestants have said for hundreds of years. An easy looking win may be almost irrelevant rather than the disaster area - by itself - that is being implied by neglect of highlighting the wider context.

And Mexico and the Philippines, which JM is clearly aiming at, as well as other countries, don't have much catechesis or formation (leaving a vacuum).

Where were the catholics, and the restorationists, and the dominionists, the body theologians, and the consumerist camp promoters, when JM was almost the only big personality criticising the Kansas Five?

These are the people who say their line is what attracts people to the churches.

Christians should use logical prioritisation. If you want to put people's knowledge of Holy Spirit right (He is the one Whom Christ sent at Ascension to comfort us) there are more direct means than the puzzling area of Mary. Protestants only disrespect Mary when goaded.

Because of Holy Spirit we are meant to bear Christ to each other. The Kansas Five, the dominionists, the restorationists, the body theologians, want to stop that, to the extent of faking Holy Spirit and faking ministry.

Am I to understand some of the "defenders of Christ" have quietly demoted Holy Spirit?

Not enough other big figures took JM's cue to undertake their own discernment and act accordingly to defend us. At CF we need to share far more trenchant analyses of graver distortions.

No one is denying that JM has done some good in taking on the Kansas Five and the Charismatic Movement. But I think he has missed the mark in a big way by embracing Nestorianism.

It would have been enough for him to go after the neo-Collyridian cults like the Palmarian Church or the movements around Medjugorje or Ida Peerdeman which the Roman Catholic Church has tried repeatedly to shut down.

As I see it, JM is trying to be like Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick, the extremely successful Eastern Orthodox (Antiochian) apologist and heresiologist, who has attacked all of these groups, or like Dr. James Kennedy who also attacked the cults and liberal Christianity, such as the gay Metropolitan Community Church.
 
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ozso

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This is wrong for two reasons, firstly, because any reference to the Father is also a reference to the Son. Secondly most references to the Lord in the Old Testameent are clearly Christological rather than Patrological.

Indeed no one actually knew about the Father until Christ taught them about Him (John 1:18) they knew about God and the Holy Spirit, but did not know that the Holy Spirit was a person of the Trinity, or that God had multiple persons, and that the other two were God the Father who had a son who was also God. And in most, possibly all, instances in the Old Testament where someone interacted with God it was with Christ, since he alone was incarnate and able to Walk around the Garden of Eden. It is not a coincidence that Jesus Christ is referred to as Lord and God in the Old Testament is routinely referred to simply as “the Lord.”

Now you might ask how it was that our Lord was present in the Garden of Eden when he only became incarnate around 6 BC. The answer is that Christ after ascending to Heaven resumed his eternal existence, and since God is eternal, the past and the future aren‘t concepts God has to deal with; God created time as well as space and everything in spacetime, and is everywhere and at all times present. And he is also omniscient. So it doesn’t even make sense to talk about Christ before and after the incarnation, ior about the “pre-incarnate Christ” other than that in his divine nature He always existed outside of time but his incarnation took place at a specific time, but with His ascension the resurrected luminous humanity of Christ became omnipresent through all ages of ages. Thus he is as we speak judging us at the Parousia and with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses in the past, since time is a subjective human experience, that Christ has experienced as a man, but as God, Christ is also free from its constraints.
*sigh* I meant the New Testament of course.

Explain why Paul says God our Father and Jesus Christ in every epistle he wrote.
 
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ozso

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Only a minority of Protestants are thrown off by it. The largest Protestant denominational groupings, such as the Anglicans (including the Anglican Communion, the Global South and the Continuing Anglicans in the US) and Lutherans and also any Calvinists who pay attention to what John Calvin actually taught, acknowledge the status of the Virgin Mary as Theotokos. This is also why one frequently finds Protestant churches dedicated to St. Mary.
I'm explaining why the minority is thrown off by it. And if it's such an inconsequential minority, then why is such a huge deal being made out of it to the tune of nearly 1000 posts?
 
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OldAbramBrown

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It's very simple, actually. There's no need to use offensive talk if we don't have to. For example, in Islam, one of the greatest sins a person can commit is to say a man is God. So while I would never say we should dumb down that Christ is God, I think saying a human femal who is the mother of God would be especially problematic for them. The vague language of "What God is Mary the mother of?" makes it especially offensive to a Muslim when we could very well say "Mary the mother of our Lord." The same would go for practicing Jews. They have enough difficulty with the Trinity (as do Muslims) so there's no need to say a human is the mother of the uncreated creator, which is how it comes across to these other religions.
It's even simpler. The term "God" is a job title, not a personal name; classical Greeks and Hindus have it, some secular agnostic philosophers went through a fad of having it.

You make it look as if you have strange idea of evangelising? (Most people do.) Are you teaching because you know the church doesn't?

Do the churches you are aware of have a concept of mutual teaching? Restorationists gained 100 % in convincing all christians that teaching is to be usurped solely by the elite, and that non evangelisers must evangelise; the result is that we can't outreach because we don't inreach. The two feedings, of the 5,000 and the 4,000 are about teaching.

When we gain distinct belief that the Godhead in Christ Whom Mary bore, sent (at Ascension) the Godhead in Holy Spirit Who comforts us, we'll begin inreach leading to genuine outreach.

"The time now is, they shall worship in Spirit and truth" instead of by manoeuvring. The worship of God = to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted orphans and widows. That will be what muslims / agnostics / etc will want to hear testimony of.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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I'm explaining why the minority is thrown off by it. And if it's such an inconsequential minority, then why is such a huge deal being made out of it to the tune of nearly 1000 posts?
Ah but did you read the rest of the discussion?
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Explain why Paul says God our Father and Jesus Christ in every epistle he wrote.
Scripture is to be believed even though it is colloquial. Do you know how to apply more than one logic at a time?
 
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The Liturgist

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In post #675 @Ordinary Christian

I have reposted it here for your convenience. I was surprised that you didn’t seem to answer it at the time:

Good grief, the answer is an emphatic “NO” for the Holy Apostle Paul attests in multiple places to the deity of Christ our God, including the verse you seem confused about (in which St. Paul is in fact naming two of the three persons of the Trinity). Not only that, but elsewhere, St. Paul writes in his Epistle to the Colossians 1:15 about our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, that he “ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created…”, (this corresponds with the declaration of Christ as the God and the Word of God Incarnate, “by whom all things were made”, in John 1:1-14).

And later in the same Epistle to the Colossians, specifically Colossians 2:9, St. Paul makes things even more clear: “In Him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Finally, lest there be any doubt, St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Phillipians, specifically Philippians 2:5-7, writes “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.” And likewise in the Epistle to Hebrews, it is written, probably by St. Paul, that Jesus Christ “is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Thus, St. Paul provides all the proof texts we need for the deity of Christ, and based on just these four or five verses, we would be justified in thinking of God when we read the name Jesus Christ. What troubles me is that despite the other verses of St. Paul that I quoted, which are even more explicit in their declaration of the deity of Christ, you found that one verse a mental stumbling block to the essential Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ is God, together with His Father and the Holy Spirit our Comforter and Paraclete (hence the standard Trinitarian expression God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost), particularly when, in addition to the aformentioned Pauline verses, we also have Holy Apostle John beginning his Gospel, in John 1:1-18 Jesus Christ to be the incarnate Word of God, who in the beginning was with God and is God, and by whom all things were made (corresponding with Colossians 1:15), who makes the Father visible to us, and elsewhere quoting Christ self-identfying as God (“before Abraham was, I AM”; recall that the name God gives to Moses is I AM THAT I AM” referring to the unoriginate nature of the Divine Essence of the Holy Trinity), and also declaring “I and the Father are One,” and the Holy Evangelist Luke likewise beginning his Gospel with an account of the miraculous conception of our Lord by the Virgin Mary through the action of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeding to an account of the Visitation between the Blessed Virgin Mary and her cousin St. Elizabeth, the mother of St. John the Baptist, the Forerunner of Christ, during which time St. Elizabeth refers to her as the Mother of our Lord, and St. Mary prophesizes, correctly, I might add, that all nations shall call her blessed, a prophecy that has obviously been fulfilled many times over in the past 2,000 years*. And likewise the Holy Apostle Matthew begins his Gospel with an account of the Blessed Virgin Mary becoming pregnant by the Holy Spirit, and cites the prophecy of St. Isaiah, that a Virgin would conceive, and her son would be called Emanuel, which means “God With Us,” which is further proof of the deity of Jesus Christ, and St. Matthew concludes his Gospel with the Great Commission, that we are to go and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

And by the way, when I refer to Jesus Christ as our God and Savior, I am simply quoting the Holy Apostle Peter, who in the first verse of his second epistle (2 Peter 1:1) addresses his readers “To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Now please forgive me, but I am trying to understand your position: how is it, that given all of the texts I have cited, by the Holy Apostles Paul, Peter, Matthew and John (who also aludes to the three members of the Trinity in 1 John 5:7-9 , even if one rejects the authenticity of the “Comma Johanneum” or regards it as a helpful gloss to identify the persons of the Trinity referred to poetically, there is still a Trinitarian expression), and by St. Luke the Evangelist and St. Isaiah the Prophet, and also the book of Exodus, traditionally regarded as being the writing of St. Moses the Prophet, you are not intuitively able to make the connection, when reading the Scriptures, between Jesus Christ and God? I ask this not in a spirit of confrontation or polemics but as a Christian pastor, because I am extremely interested in your scenario from a catechetical perspective, because with my congregations I need to ensure that that the laity is thoroughly aware of the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and this includes communicating this fact to people coming from outside the traditional liturgical churches who have not been catechized to think in this way, which at one time included myself when during the third grade I was confused about the nature of the Trinity because the pastor at the Lutheran Parochial school did not spend nearly enough time teaching us about theology, and I had not yet read all the way through the Gospels let alone the New Testament, but rather just bits and pieces here and there.

So I am hoping that, as a fellow Nicene Christian, for I assume you affirm the Nicene Creed, as it is the Statement of Faith required for participation on Christian forums, you can help me figure out why I find so many people like yourself for whom this hasn’t clicked, despite the Scripture being extremely clear that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, as it says in the Creed. I am particularly interested to know if this is due to a visceral reaction against the Roman Catholic Church, wherein because one disagrees with the Roman Church, one is inclined to reject the phrase “Mother of God” despite the fact that Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer and even John Calvin endorsed its theological accuracy, and furthermore to incorrectly assume that it means that Mary gave birth to God the Father, who is unoriginate, or to the uncreated divine nature the Father shares with the uncreated Son, eternally begotten of the Father, or the uncreated divine nature of the Holy Spirit who eternally proceeds from the Father, or to the unoriginate Trinity as a whole, when in fact the doctrine is clear, based on the scriptural texts, that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to God the Son in his Incarnation, when He put on our created human nature and united it with His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division. And having rejected that phrase and thus inadvertently subscribed to Nestorianism, one perhaps becomes used to referring to Jesus Christ and God separately, to the point that the verses indicating the deity of Christ and his consubstantiality with God the Father and with mankind are ignored, and other verses such as Romans 1:7 misread so that what should be perceived as a statement of the coequality of God the Father and God the Son is instead seen as indicating that Jesus Christ is not God, but rather only the Father is God, which is a position I trust you will agree is contrary to the Christian faith. And then, as I suggested in my prior post, this Nestorian bias becomes a self-reinforcing dynamic error, wherein the accidental Nestorianism arrived at through the error of Antidicomarianism (which is the refusal to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary in any way or to acknowledge her blessed status) compound upon each other to create a situation in which the doctrine of the Incarnation becomes negated and Jesus Christ becomes merely a sacrificial victim, and not the incarnate Word of God trampling down death by death in a moment of triumph on the Cross wherein death was swallowed up in victory, and in His glorious resurrection we see mankind remade in the image of God and glorified, so that the corruption introduced when Adam succumbed to sin has not only been obliterated, but humanity has been elevated to a new level of perfection through the hypostatic union of God and Man in the person of Jesus Christ, which is why He is called “Emanuel” - God With Us.

*Recall that India has had a Christian population since 53 AD, and Armenia, the Roman Empire, Georgia (the country on the border of Russia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, and not the US state) and Ethiopia converted to Christianity between 306 and 320 AD, and remain Christian, and the small surviving portion of the Church of the East located in Iraq, Iran, and a diaspora concentrated in North America and Australia, once extended all the way from Aleppo in Syria and Socotra, an island off the coast of Yemen, to Mongolia, China, Tibet and Sri Lanka, before the Muslim warlord killed most of them in the 12th century.

In short, the verse you keep bringing up is a confession of the deity of Christ, so I have no idea what you are trying to prove. Are you trying to say that Jesus Christ is not God or that his deity is separate from his humanity based on the fact that St. Paul refers to God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ individually? Because if so that would be absurd. We are not Sabellians - God consists of three persons, not one person with three modes of being.
 
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The Liturgist

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sigh* I meant the New Testament of course.

Forgive me, but you should have said as much.

Unfortunately being an ordained presbyter does not automatically grant me powers of clairvoyance.*


* I would have to be an ascetic who prayed for years to receive such a charisma, and it’s probably one that very few people could actually handle. When it comes to the torrential thoughts in other peoples minds, and the sins they are struggling with, ignorance is truly bliss, after all, as anyone who has had to hear confessions can tell you.
 
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By the way, to reiterate my original response to the OP, the answer is “No” in that while Nestorianism is a serious error, Nestorians do not reject the Nicene Creed. Nonetheless, Nestorianism is an error, like Antidicomarianism or Iconoclasm, which must be strongly discouraged; it is much more problematic than Monergism.

I would even argue it is more of a problem than Universalism, since universalism is merely a misunderstanding of Eschatology, whereas Nestorianism causes confusion about the identity of Jesus Christ and adversely impacts the theology of the Incarnation. So it is a serious error.

However I cannot call anyone who confesses the Nicene Creed and the deity of Christ a heretic.
 
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ozso

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Forgive me, but you should have said as much.

Unfortunately being an ordained presbyter does not automatically grant me powers of clairvoyance.*


* I would have to be an ascetic who prayed for years to receive such a charisma, and it’s probably one that very few people could actually handle. When it comes to the torrential thoughts in other peoples minds, and the sins they are struggling with, ignorance is truly bliss, after all, as anyone who has had to hear confessions can tell you.
Context usually doesn't require clairvoyance.
 
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