• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

This is my body.

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
4,758
402
88
Arcadia
✟267,951.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was under the impression that the term "Apostle" referred to someone that founds new churches. For example, a non-denominational Pastor who is the brother in law of a good friend of mine, after he founded his third church from scratch, is now being referred to a "APostle" and is no longer called by the term "Pastor."

I have to admit that at first when I was told of his new moniker was a bit confused thinking to myself "I thought there has only been 12 Apostles, all appointed by Jesus the Christ himself." Then something came to mind like "Well I guess the first 12 were named that because they were sent out to grow the church by founding new churches everywhere they went so maybe that is what an 'Apostle' actually is in practice." What does the Bible say about it?
The first ones that were chosen , where men that anted to serve and ELDERS where chosen by Christ in Acts 14:23 >

By the way Paul never could choose PRIEST and neither did the LORD as priest had to be descendants of Aaron , because the OLD COVENANT was SET A SIDE by Acts 28:26-28 .

dan p
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,030
Twin Cities
✟867,533.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
The first ones that were chosen , where men that anted to serve and ELDERS where chosen by Christ in Acts 14:23 >

By the way Paul never could choose PRIEST and neither did the LORD as priest had to be descendants of Aaron , because the OLD COVENANT was SET A SIDE by Acts 28:26-28 .

dan p
Just a question but did not the New Covenant do away with the Old? Are they joined together?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
13,013
6,262
Minnesota
✟348,574.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Just a question but did not the New Covenant do away with the Old? Are they joined together?
Psalm 110:4
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest for ever
after the order of Melchiz′edek.” RSVCE

Recall Melchizedek offered mere bread and wine. Our Lord offers His Body and His Blood under the outward appearance of bread and wine.
Priests under the New Covenant, the Covenant which is the Body and Blood of Our Lord, are priests of the order of Melchizedek. The new fullfills the old.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,310
14,091
74
✟443,090.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Just a question but did not the New Covenant do away with the Old? Are they joined together?
Great question. On one side I see those who see the New Covenant as simply being a reformed edition of the Old. On the other, it is radically New. As I read the letter to the Hebrews I am strongly inclined to consider the New to be actually New and not a rehash of the Old.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,694.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Great question. On one side I see those who see the New Covenant as simply being a reformed edition of the Old. On the other, it is radically New. As I read the letter to the Hebrews I am strongly inclined to consider the New to be actually New and not a rehash of the Old.
The old covenant (old testament too) is typical. It uses created things to represent heavenly things. In the old covenant there's a book of the law that one ought to consult the priests to know and understand, and that one also ought to read, and use to instruct one's own family (if you are the head of the household), and there were sacrifices that a priest would make on your behalf, and there were feasts and celebrations in which you were called to partake.

The new covenant uses the typical representations as instruction to help Jewish people who became Christians to understand the anti-types - or realities - that are realised in Jesus Christ. So, in Christ's earthly life Christians see heavenly matters present on Earth, they receive the Word, who is Jesus, as Exemplar of the way one ought to live and worship (as the one who is the Law lived) and to whom one comes for instruction and understanding, they ought to be constantly in Christ receiving him continuously so that they can instruct the whole world and show by example what Jesus is like, and there are sacraments which God acts in and through within the Church which they are called to receive.

The new covenant is new and it is the fulfilment of the old covenant, thus the old covenant is finished because it is completed in Jesus Christ and Christians are in Christ too, so they are called to be in Christ and not to follow the practises of the old covenant which was typical of what they are.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,310
14,091
74
✟443,090.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The old covenant (old testament too) is typical. It uses created things to represent heavenly things. In the old covenant there's a book of the law that one ought to consult the priests to know and understand, and that one also ought to read, and use to instruct one's own family (if you are the head of the household), and there were sacrifices that a priest would make on your behalf, and there were feasts and celebrations in which you were called to partake.

The new covenant uses the typical representations as instruction to help Jewish people who became Christians to understand the anti-types - or realities - that are realised in Jesus Christ. So, in Christ's earthly life Christians see heavenly matters present on Earth, they receive the Word, who is Jesus, as Exemplar of the way one ought to live and worship (as the one who is the Law lived) and to whom one comes for instruction and understanding, they ought to be constantly in Christ receiving him continuously so that they can instruct the whole world and show by example what Jesus is like, and there are sacraments which God acts in and through within the Church which they are called to receive.

The new covenant is new and it is the fulfilment of the old covenant, thus the old covenant is finished because it is completed in Jesus Christ and Christians are in Christ too, so they are called to be in Christ and not to follow the practises of the old covenant which was typical of what they are.
Very well put. The thorny issue is what to make of the Eucharist (which is defined as the giving of thanks). In what sense does it relate to the Old Testament sacrifices which were solely offered in on temple only, located in Jerusalem? Is this giving of thanks a memorial representation of Christ's body and blood or is it somehow a sacrifice on the order of the Old Testament sacrifices?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
13,013
6,262
Minnesota
✟348,574.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Very well put. The thorny issue is what to make of the Eucharist (which is defined as the giving of thanks). In what sense does it relate to the Old Testament sacrifices which were solely offered in on temple only, located in Jerusalem? Is this giving of thanks a memorial representation of Christ's body and blood or is it somehow a sacrifice on the order of the Old Testament sacrifices?
The Catholic Catechism answers your questions well:
V. THE SACRAMENTAL SACRIFICE THANKSGIVING, MEMORIAL, PRESENCE
1356
If from the beginning Christians have celebrated the Eucharist and in a form whose substance has not changed despite the great diversity of times and liturgies, it is because we know ourselves to be bound by the command the Lord gave on the eve of his Passion: "Do this in remembrance of me."183
1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.
1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:
- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.
Thanksgiving and praise to the Father
1359
The Eucharist, the sacrament of our salvation accomplished by Christ on the cross, is also a sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for the work of creation. In the Eucharistic sacrifice the whole of creation loved by God is presented to the Father through the death and the Resurrection of Christ. Through Christ the Church can offer the sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for all that God has made good, beautiful, and just in creation and in humanity.
1360 The Eucharist is a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Father, a blessing by which the Church expresses her gratitude to God for all his benefits, for all that he has accomplished through creation, redemption, and sanctification. Eucharist means first of all "thanksgiving."
1361 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of praise by which the Church sings the glory of God in the name of all creation. This sacrifice of praise is possible only through Christ: he unites the faithful to his person, to his praise, and to his intercession, so that the sacrifice of praise to the Father is offered through Christ and with him, to be accepted in him.
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church
1362
The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,694.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Very well put. The thorny issue is what to make of the Eucharist (which is defined as the giving of thanks). In what sense does it relate to the Old Testament sacrifices which were solely offered in on temple only, located in Jerusalem? Is this giving of thanks a memorial representation of Christ's body and blood or is it somehow a sacrifice on the order of the Old Testament sacrifices?
From my perspective the Holy Eucharist is also solely offered at Calvary, just outside of the gates of Jerusalem, and it is the greatest giving of thanks for the one costly sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ. In the Eucharist I receive the body and blood of my Lord, Jesus Christ, together with his soul and divinity. It is one sacrifice never to be repeated but always to be received, and I receive it at the hand of my local priest (pastor) every time I am at mass. That's what I have done with the thorny issue. I like that you asked.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,310
14,091
74
✟443,090.00
Faith
Non-Denom
From my perspective the Holy Eucharist is also solely offered at Calvary, just outside of the gates of Jerusalem, and it is the greatest giving of thanks for the one costly sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus Christ. In the Eucharist I receive the body and blood of my Lord, Jesus Christ, together with his soul and divinity. It is one sacrifice never to be repeated but always to be received, and I receive it at the hand of my local priest (pastor) every time I am at mass. That's what I have done with the thorny issue. I like that you asked.
Thank you for your reasonable response. Although I am hardly surprised by it, I appreciate very much the fact that you did not simply cut and paste a rote response.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,694.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Thank you for your reasonable response. Although I am hardly surprised by it, I appreciate very much the fact that you did not simply cut and paste a rote response.
Honestly, the official documents from the Catholic Church are the best source for a good answer to any question except one that is intended to get a personal perspective or opinion. And since most CF posters who ask (or accuse) Catholics about Catholic belief, really need to hear what the Church teaches rather than a personal opinion, an official document's words will do the best job answering.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,310
14,091
74
✟443,090.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Honestly, the official documents from the Catholic Church are the best source for a good answer to any question except one that is intended to get a personal perspective or opinion. And since most CF posters who ask (or accuse) Catholics about Catholic belief, really need to hear what the Church teaches rather than a personal opinion, an official document's words will do the best job answering.
That is quite true. Strangely, many of us non-Catholics do not know how to access the Catechism of the Catholic Church online, even though it is readily accessible.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,733
2,551
Perth
✟214,694.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
That is quite true. Strangely, many of us non-Catholics do not know how to access the Catechism of the Catholic Church online, even though it is readily accessible.
It's easy to find, the best search is "vatican CCC" which will yield at least one instance of Catechism of the Catholic Church , but using "usccb ccc" as your search will work fairly well.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,310
14,091
74
✟443,090.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
14,031
4,616
72
Franklin, Tennessee
✟304,400.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Honestly, the official documents from the Catholic Church are the best source for a good answer to any question except one that is intended to get a personal perspective or opinion. And since most CF posters who ask (or accuse) Catholics about Catholic belief, really need to hear what the Church teaches rather than a personal opinion, an official document's words will do the best job answering.
Wait, you mean for the most accurate account of what Catholics believe you'd have us refer to a Catholic Source? How weird is that!:fearscream:
Next you'll be telling us to take our engineering questions to (gasp!) engineers.
 
Upvote 0

Jacque_Pierre22

Active Member
Aug 13, 2014
263
44
nyc
✟66,185.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
From the Lutheran POV the succession of bishops from the apostles is historically true, so it isn't rejected. However, apostolic succession is not treated the same way in Lutheranism as it is in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism; it is not considered necessary. So, as an example, in the Holy Roman Empire where most of the bishops remained loyal to Rome, the Lutheran churches did not have bishops overseeing them. On the other hand, in the Scandinavian countries, particularly Sweden, there were bishops who embraced the reforms--most importantly the Archbishop of Uppsala, and the Church of Sweden retains apostolic succession, whereas the German Lutherans did not (and this became more muddied and complicated later with the Prussion Union in which there was a forced union between Lutherans and Reformed, leading to Lutherans fleeing for religious freedom in places like America and Canada).

Lutheranism has never mandated a particular ecclesiastical polity, which is to say from the Lutheran POV there is no divinely commanded way on how to organize the Church. In North America most Lutheran bodies follow a basically congregational polity, though the ELCA when it joined with the Episcopal Church in altar and pulpit fellowship adopted a semi-episcopal polity, which is why the ELCA has bishops--though things still broadly follow a congregational model.

Apostolic Succession, then, is historically true--it can be observed historically. It was important, especially in the early years of the Church. It's therefore completely valid. Is it necessary? No. So if it should be followed is less important than being faithful to the apostolic faith itself. Holding firm to the apostolic word in Scripture, confessing and believing God's word, and holding to true faith is far more important to Lutherans than whether our pastors are "validated" through the historical succession of bishops.



The apostolical ministry is preserved in the pastorate--bishops and presbyters. So those who call themselves modern-day apostles would be viewed from a Lutheran POV as misguided at best, and grifters at worst.



The existence of Paul as an apostle means that no, there were more than just the Twelve. There were the Twelve Apostles, St. Matthias replacing Judas Iscariot. But there was also Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, and many others--Scripture attests to this. There is no exhaustive list of how many apostles were around in that first generation, but tradition talks about the existence of the 72 apostles.

The Twelve obviously held a special place of importance, at least initially, as it was viewed as important to retain that number of 12 by replacing Judas with Matthias. However, after the election of Matthias to the Twelve no additional mention can be found, in or outside Scripture, for retaining the Twelve. After St. James the Great died around 44 AD, as mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, the number was again reduced to 11, but no attempt is made to replace James with anyone.

And this is generally why the traditional account of St. John's death sometime around 100 AD is viewed as the death of the last apostle and, therefore, the end of the apostolic era; it is followed by the sub-apostolic era, the era of the "apostolic fathers", those early fathers of the Church who knew and learned and were friends of the apostles and who were often appointed by the apostles directly to their episcopal chair.



I view Apostolic Succession as completely valid. I just don't view it as a necessity for the functioning of the Church and the Church's exercising of the Keys and retaining the sacred ministry of Word and Sacrament.

I'd even, speaking personally here, say that Apostolic Succession is ideal. But it isn't what validates other things in the Church; the word of God and the faithful confession of the Church are what validates the Church as the Church: Here is where God's word is, here is where the Sacraments are celebrated, here is where repentance and confession happens, etc. This is what validates the Church as the Church of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
I disagree that this is a valid Lutheran view. Franz Pieper said in his Dogmatics volume 3 : "The endeavor of the Romanists and the Anglicans to derive the Apostolic Character of the Church from the "Apostolic Succession" has correctly been termed childish folly because Scripture .......tells us to
avoid all teachers who depart from the Apostolic Gospel, no matter whether they are called bishops, elders, or otherwise Romans 16:17, Galatians 1: 6-8)." My musing is, the apostle Nathanael In John 1 was called a true Israelite because he studied the scriptures under the fig tree and was "without guile". This is in contradistinction to the "rock" (Peter) who was called Satan, the chief liar. So those who follow the truth correctly are doing what Jesus commands, and this is based on the Scriptures, not anything else. Jesus called him based on what he said, similarly in Job, Eliaphaz acts as Satan's mouthpiece by giving bad advice to Job that contradicts what God said about him (NSBT "Piercing Leviathan").
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0