The practice of healing and working of miracles

[Always in His Presence]

The difference between the First Century church and today's is that the former was more of an "underground" group of fellowships meeting in private homes. This is because if they had public gatherings, the religious leaders would put the kybosh on them. This was also true with the Gentile churches.

Timothy's church numbered in the thousands - the first century churches were a combination of large gatherings and home churches.

In Greece, they assembled weekly in amphitheaters - right out in the open. This is one where Paul preached.

That my friend, is not a home church.

 

[Always in His Presence]

1 Cor 12: 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.​

Notice what God has appointed in the church:

1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Teachers
4. Miracle
5. Gifts of healings
6. Helps
7. Administrations,
8. Variety of Tongues

Question: Is the church still here? Then these that God appointed are also. You cannot intellectually or exegetically say one or two are no longer appointed without eliminating the full list.

He even goes to the point of what to desire, go after - seek

 

[ARBITER01]

The difference between the First Century church and today's is that the former was more of an "underground" group of fellowships meeting in private homes. This is because if they had public gatherings, the religious leaders would put the kybosh on them. This was also true with the Gentile churches. They were outlawed by Rome, and being Christian was a capital offence at times, especially during the time of Emperor worship. The church did not emerge from the shadows until Constantine made Christianity legal.

So it was during those early times that the gifts of the Spirit flowed. Once Christianity became legal and out of the shadows, the decline happened, as church buildings were used, a profession clergy was put in place and the bishops took authority, making the rank and file passive observers of the performance at the front.

There is an underground church in Muslim countries. Those believers meet at risk to their lives if they are discovered. By the reports I have heard, miracles have taken place in ways we in the West have not seen. The same happened when the church was underground during the Communist Era behind the iron curtain. These Christians were certainly a different "breed" of believers than we see in most Western churches.

Maybe that is a clue to why we don't see healing and miracles as indicated in Scripture that should happen.

Oscarr it seems you keep looking to blame something other than the individual.

Why did Wigglesworth rise up in such power with GOD? Why did Ms. Etter here in America?

Yes, GOD does do things in the body of Christ more so as a group, but that group can't seek the greater gifts for you the individual, you have to do that yourself. There's no church system or denomination that purposely hinders any Christian from attaining great things with GOD. It's all up to the individual to seek out and find.

I do think that people who were brought out of very sinful lifestyles by Jesus appreciate that divine love of His more than anyone else, and they tend to rise up in power with GOD more, but that just my personal opinion on it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I do think that people who were brought out of very sinful lifestyles by Jesus appreciate that divine love of His more than your anyone else, and they tend to rise up in power with GOD more, but that just my personal opinion on it.

I think there is a lot of truth to that actually. Jesus even said those who were forgiven much, love much. I think the implication of that is true for grace as well. People who experienced more of God's grace in salvation, will likely flow in that grace more in their walk with Him. It's like the Pharisee's who didn't think they needed grace, so they received none, whereas Mary Magdalene was freed from multiple demons and she was one of the only people to stand by Jesus at His cross and she became the first evangelist. Even Paul is a good example of this. He was "the chief of sinners".

Truthfully it's why I ask God almost daily to reveal the depth of my wickedness to me, so that I can appreciate and walk in His grace in a deeper way.

 

[jiminpa]

Yes, all signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs. I have said this many times before.

But you do agree that, from Matthew 10:5-8, Luke 7:18-23 and John 20:30-31, the majority, if not all, of Jesus's miracles are signs meant for the nation of Israel?

I think that the Bible has way more to say about miracles than 3 passages for proof texting, 2 of which don't even mention signs.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is a good thread. Thanks...

One Issue I have is that as I see Him move with me from time to time and healings happen, I am more persuaded about His wonderful work than any gift of mine.

Second I think we have theologically lost sight of the Cross event being the source of all healing.

Third, Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing and this is a key to being where He wants to act and on time.

Fourth as has already been intimated He will not share His Glory - so there is no easy way to sharing with Him - brokenness is essential.

Lastly there is a fear of total commitment necessary to be called to this realm of service.

He is Love and He is there to stretch out His hand through and with us, but the workers are few.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This is a good thread. Thanks...

One Issue I have is that as I see Him move with me from time to time and healings happen, I am more persuaded about His wonderful work than any gift of mine.

Second I think we have theologically lost sight of the Cross event being the source of all healing.

Third, Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing and this is a key to being where He wants to act and on time.

Fourth as has already been intimated He will not share His Glory - so there is no easy way to sharing with Him - brokenness is essential.

Lastly there is a fear of total commitment necessary to be called to this realm of service.

He is Love and He is there to stretch out His hand through and with us, but the workers are few.

I wonder if, and this will sound kind of like an excuse, but I sincerely wonder if a lot of the problem isn't that the church is soooo far removed from the Apostolic Age, separated by a large gap where the RCC had full sway over doctrine, that perhaps a lot of unbelief is really just ignorance in disguise. Like it may look like people have no faith for these things, but in reality, they just lack the understanding of what is necessary.

A couple of things I see.

Jesus made a definitive statement, well more than one actually on the topic.

As you pointed out my dear brother, Jesus could do only what He saw the Father doing. This is why Jesus rarely healed in the same manner. It's really not a cut and paste solution each time. How many times do we go out into our communities with the expectation of seeing the Father working? I painfully admit I suck at this, and need to do better. Just asking the Spirit to open my eyes to the needs around me. Not looking only for the big power miracles, but for any work that the Father has ordained. We can get so laser focused on wanting to raise the dead or seeing the lame walk, that we forget about helping the poor or feeding the hungry. All of those are just as important to the Father. In fact, helping the weak, poor, and destitute are likely more important than healing the sick.

Jesus rebuked His disciples as He came down from the mount, because they lacked faith. They lacked faith, not the person wanting healing. It's a great source of pride and personal protection for a minister to stand up in front of a congregation and pray for someone then when they are not healed rebuke them for lacking faith. Now yes, there are passages that suggest people can see few miracles because of their unbelief, but those are rare. Which leads me to the next point here.

Timing. Now this is the tricky one, and requires the absolute dependence of each of us on the Father, Son, and Spirit. Peter and John walked by the lame man going into the Temple. It's not 100% certain, but it's highly likely that Jesus walked by this man at least once or twice, yet He didn't minister to him... why? It wasn't the right time. The Father has ordained these works to be done, at certain moments that will give Him the greatest glory. When the blind man in John 9 was healed, the disciples asked whose sin led him to be blind. Jesus told them, it wasn't a sin that caused him to be blind, rather God was going to be glorified in the work. We may minister to someone and they are not healed. It doesn't mean that the Father doesn't want to heal them, it could likely mean that it's just not the right time. So many miracles in the Bible were done at a time and point where a multitude of people could see and become aware of God's power and then hear the gospel. Not all, but quite a few. But we have to work with the Father while doing these things. Waiting for Him to reveal the right time to act and respond I think. Which takes us back to point 1, watching for the Father to reveal His work to us.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I wonder if, and this will sound kind of like an excuse, but I sincerely wonder if a lot of the problem isn't that the church is soooo far removed from the Apostolic Age, separated by a large gap where the RCC had full sway over doctrine, that perhaps a lot of unbelief is really just ignorance in disguise. Like it may look like people have no faith for these things, but in reality, they just lack the understanding of what is necessary.

A couple of things I see.

Jesus made a definitive statement, well more than one actually on the topic.

As you pointed out my dear brother, Jesus could do only what He saw the Father doing. This is why Jesus rarely healed in the same manner. It's really not a cut and paste solution each time. How many times do we go out into our communities with the expectation of seeing the Father working? I painfully admit I suck at this, and need to do better. Just asking the Spirit to open my eyes to the needs around me. Not looking only for the big power miracles, but for any work that the Father has ordained. We can get so laser focused on wanting to raise the dead or seeing the lame walk, that we forget about helping the poor or feeding the hungry. All of those are just as important to the Father. In fact, helping the weak, poor, and destitute are likely more important than healing the sick.

Jesus rebuked His disciples as He came down from the mount, because they lacked faith. They lacked faith, not the person wanting healing. It's a great source of pride and personal protection for a minister to stand up in front of a congregation and pray for someone then when they are not healed rebuke them for lacking faith. Now yes, there are passages that suggest people can see few miracles because of their unbelief, but those are rare. Which leads me to the next point here.

Timing. Now this is the tricky one, and requires the absolute dependence of each of us on the Father, Son, and Spirit. Peter and John walked by the lame man going into the Temple. It's not 100% certain, but it's highly likely that Jesus walked by this man at least once or twice, yet He didn't minister to him... why? It wasn't the right time. The Father has ordained these works to be done, at certain moments that will give Him the greatest glory. When the blind man in John 9 was healed, the disciples asked whose sin led him to be blind. Jesus told them, it wasn't a sin that caused him to be blind, rather God was going to be glorified in the work. We may minister to someone and they are not healed. It doesn't mean that the Father doesn't want to heal them, it could likely mean that it's just not the right time. So many miracles in the Bible were done at a time and point where a multitude of people could see and become aware of God's power and then hear the gospel. Not all, but quite a few. But we have to work with the Father while doing these things. Waiting for Him to reveal the right time to act and respond I think. Which takes us back to point 1, watching for the Father to reveal His work to us.

Right on the button...

One point is from your quote "How many times do we go out into our communities with the expectation of seeing the Father working? I painfully admit I suck at this, and need to do better. Just asking the Spirit to open my eyes to the needs around me ..."

Can I suggest that such activity was not meant to be an individual sport but you should have folks praying in the background then go out.

We used to have communion together before going out into the city and have intercessors praying back at base.

All sorts of gifts begin to manifest when they are needed because one steps out into the cutting edge of the Kingdom.

And a last comment - I think generally the was we do church is flawed and the falling of leaders confirms this.

No denomination is immune to this.

Better to restore the work of the faithful to a family base from which His work can proceed with less hinderance.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Timothy's church numbered in the thousands - the first century churches were a combination of large gatherings and home churches.

In Greece, they assembled weekly in amphitheaters - right out in the open. This is one where Paul preached.

View attachment 335735

That my friend, is not a home church.

It wasn't a Christian church. It was a gathering of Greek Philosophers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr it seems you keep looking to blame something other than the individual.

Why did Wigglesworth rise up in such power with GOD? Why did Ms. Etter here in America?

Yes, GOD does do things in the body of Christ more so as a group, but that group can't seek the greater gifts for you the individual, you have to do that yourself. There's no church system or denomination that purposely hinders any Christian from attaining great things with GOD. It's all up to the individual to seek out and find.

I do think that people who were brought out of very sinful lifestyles by Jesus appreciate that divine love of His more than anyone else, and they tend to rise up in power with GOD more, but that just my personal opinion on it.

The indication for me is what Jesus said to the seven churches in Revelation. He addressed whole churches rather than specific individuals, although He did mention "Jezebel" in one. His comments were addressed to the leadership {angels} of the respective churches. This points me to the view that if the Holy Spirit is being grieved in a church, then the responsibility rests on the leadership of the church. When Paul addressed the issues in the Corinthian church, he directed his comments to the leadership. So in any church, the buck stops with the pastor and elders to identify and sort out any issues that may be preventing the Holy Spirit flowing with the gifts in that church.

So if a sick person calls upon the elders of the church to pray over him, and nothing happens, it may not be the direct fault of the sick person, but failure on the part of the church leadership to deal with issues that may be either quenching or grieving the Holy Spirit. We see this in the failure of the Corinthian church leadership to address serious sin, disrespect of the Lord's Supper, denial of the resurrection, and factional attitudes among members of the church. This means that even those who are walking in holiness and full commitment to Christ were missing out, as well as those who were not observing sound doctrine and practice.

When a leadership fails to do what it is called to do in a church, everyone suffers. So, if there is sin in the camp, as what happened at Ai, everyone suffered the defeat, and innocent people lost their lives all because of one guilty person who disobeyed God's command. What this means in a church is when there are hypocrites whom the leaders don't deal with, good, holy, faithful members who get sick, don't get healed because of the corruption within the body of the church.

Even though the Scripture promises healing for today, it is possible for an incompetent leadership to frustrate the grace of God in their churches. Healing wise, it means that sick people don't get healed when according to the promise of Scripture, they should.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I believe it comes down to what you said about prayer and being busy. In order to have the knowledge of God regarding healing one must consistently pray. But not only pray but then take steps to apply that knowledge. We can know we should pray for the sick, but how many times do we take the step of faith and do it?

The reason for so few miracles is people don't pray as often as they should. If they do pray, they are often afraid to act.

I believe in healing, have seen it occur, so I have the knowledge of healing, but often I fear to act, a) due firstly to not knowing what the person will think (fear of man), b) being unsure if my prayer will be answered (lack of faith).

In short human weakness can stop the miraculous.

I can agree with your last statement.
The main and dangerous difference we have with believers on the subject of healing is this.
We do not place the lack of healing on God. It is His will to heal us. Healing is included in the atonement.
The lack of healing in lives is found elsewhere. It is never God or His will. In fact, healing is an accomplished fact. His will is set in heaven. To suggest to the sick that they may be ill because God does not want them healed is the dangerous part. We do not define the will of God by the results of our prayer of our own faith. We define the will of God by His Word and by what Jesus showed us in His life and ministry. We cannot tell how many unfortunate people have missed healing because someone talked them out of it by suggesting God does not want them healed. It also defames God and diminishes the suffering of our Lord and what He purchased for us in that suffering.

 

[Always in His Presence]

It wasn't a Christian church. It was a gathering of Greek Philosophers.

Completely incorrect - the picture is where Paul preached in Macedonia - they were open air messages of the the Gospel to the Gentiles. It included Greeks (it was in Greece - ), but was not a meeting of Philosophers. This is his place to preach when not in the Temples.

Timothy's was a church is Eurasia preaching to thousands the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jews, Hellenists and Pagans

 

[Always in His Presence]

When a leadership fails to do what it is called to do in a church, everyone suffers. So, if there is sin in the camp, as what happened at Ai, everyone suffered the defeat, and innocent people lost their lives all because of one guilty person who disobeyed God's command. What this means in a church is when there are hypocrites whom the leaders don't deal with, good, holy, faithful members who get sick, don't get healed because of the corruption within the body of the church.

God is not an unjust God - He doesn't make innocent people suffer because there are people in their church not living right. Each person is responsible for their own walk of faith and their life in Christ. If you believe for a moment that you could live a sanctified life and God would not allow you're healing because someone in your church is in heresy - that is profoundly in error

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Completely incorrect - the picture is where Paul preached in Macedonia - they were open air messages of the the Gospel to the Gentiles. It included Greeks (it was in Greece - ), but was not a meeting of Philosophers. This is his place to preach when not in the Temples.

Timothy's was a church is Eurasia preaching to thousands the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jews, Hellenists and Pagans

My mistake. I though you might have been referring to Paul's conversation with the philosophers on Mars Hill. Publicly preaching the Gospel is quite different to having a Sunday morning fellowship meeting.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God is not an unjust God - He doesn't make innocent people suffer because there are people in their church not living right. Each person is responsible for their own walk of faith and their life in Christ. If you believe for a moment that you could live a sanctified life and God would not allow you're healing because someone in your church is in heresy - that is profoundly in error

So, how do you account for the numbers of faithful believers who are living sanctified lives who are not healed when they get sick? What about the small boy with multiple disabilities of sanctified parents who sincerely believed that God would heal him if they got to a healing conference, but ended up going home without the healing occurring? What had that little boy or his parent done wrong that prevented the healing? I know it was God's will to heal that little boy, so I wonder what got in the way of the healing.

 

[Guojing]

I think that the Bible has way more to say about miracles than 3 passages for proof texting, 2 of which don't even mention signs.

If you want more passages that Jesus first coming was to Israel and that signs were promised, from the time of Moses, that will allow Israel to recognize him, I can provide them.

But I think all of us know that none of those passages would convince you otherwise. Let's leave it as that then.

 

[ARBITER01]

The indication for me is what Jesus said to the seven churches in Revelation.

No, no, no,.... Oscarr,.... those churches listed in Revelation have nothing in common with an individual Christian reaching for the greater gifts. Entirely two different subjects.

 

[jiminpa]

If you want more passages that Jesus first coming was to Israel and that signs were promised, from the time of Moses, that will allow Israel to recognize him, I can provide them.

But I think all of us know that none of those passages would convince you otherwise. Let's leave it as that then.

I won't be convinced because you aren't establishing your point. Spiritual gifts can serve as signs, but you can't scripturally make that their primary purpose, any more than cessationists, who are also impressed by their own handling of scripture, can. More times than gifts are called signs they are called acts of compassion. By reducing the gifts to being primarily signs you remove the call to compassion.

 

[Guojing]

I won't be convinced because you aren't establishing your point. Spiritual gifts can serve as signs, but you can't scripturally make that their primary purpose, any more than cessationists, who are also impressed by their own handling of scripture, can. More times than gifts are called signs they are called acts of compassion. By reducing the gifts to being primarily signs you remove the call to compassion.

I actually mentioned nothing about gifts, if you read my post properly.

My thesis is the miracles of Jesus in the gospels are almost always signs to the nation of Israel that their promised Messiah is finally here. (Luke 1:68-75, Romans 15:8)

Thus, their promised kingdom of heaven is at hand.

That is why John the Baptist as the forerunner, Jesus, and the 12 could preach "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

 

[ARBITER01]

I won't be convinced because you aren't establishing your point. Spiritual gifts can serve as signs, but you can't scripturally make that their primary purpose, any more than cessationists, who are also impressed by their own handling of scripture, can. More times than gifts are called signs they are called acts of compassion. By reducing the gifts to being primarily signs you remove the call to compassion.

I think there is only one gift that is actually mentioned as a sign in scripture, that being tongues, but all the rest are certainly manifestations of GOD's ability and power. They don't point towards Israel or any other culture, as some have mentioned, they point towards the victory over satan that The Father accomplished through Jesus.