The practice of healing and working of miracles

[ByTheSpirit]

I think there is only one gift that is actually mentioned as a sign in scripture, that being tongues, but all the rest are certainly manifestations of GOD's ability and power. They don't point towards Israel or any other culture, as some have mentioned, they point towards the victory over satan that The Father accomplished through Jesus.

I think prophecy is labelled as a sign as well. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers and prophecy is a sign to believers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, no, no,.... Oscarr,.... those churches listed in Revelation have nothing in common with an individual Christian reaching for the greater gifts. Entirely two different subjects.

So we are basically stuck with the disparity between God's Word about healing, which doesn't lie, and the fact that very few people are actually healed, and we are without any practical steps to bring the facts into line with God's Word.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think prophecy is labelled as a sign as well. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers and prophecy is a sign to believers.

Healing could also be indirectly seen as a sign. When the disciples prayed and the room was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, the prayer they prayed was, "Give us boldness to preach Your Word, and that signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." The principal signs that resulted from their ministry was healing of the sick, starting with the lame man at the Gate Beautiful being made whole.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

So we are basically stuck with the disparity between God's Word about healing, which doesn't lie, and the fact that very few people are actually healed, and we are without any practical steps to bring the facts into line with God's Word.

I just don't know if it's fair or right to say "very few people are being healed". There's no way you can possibly know how many are or aren't being healed. I don't think it's nearly as bad as what's being presented. Can it be better, probably. That's the point of my OP, what steps can we take to a more biblical style healing?

Jesus told people to do something contrary to their condition to exercise faith. Lame? get up and walk. Dead? Get up! Deaf? Ears be opened! That type of deal.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Healing could also be indirectly seen as a sign. When the disciples prayed and the room was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, the prayer they prayed was, "Give us boldness to preach Your Word, and that signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." The principal signs that resulted from their ministry was healing of the sick, starting with the lame man at the Gate Beautiful being made whole.

Yeah, it could be. I was only mentioning tongues and prophecy as they are specifically labelled as such

 

[jiminpa]

I actually mentioned nothing about gifts, if you read my post properly.

My thesis is the miracles of Jesus in the gospels are almost always signs to the nation of Israel that their promised Messiah is finally here. (Luke 1:68-75, Romans 15:8)

Thus, their promised kingdom of heaven is at hand.

That is why John the Baptist as the forerunner, Jesus, and the 12 could preach "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

There is no point in having a discussion with you if you ignore the content of what I am saying.

 

[Guojing]

Healing could also be indirectly seen as a sign. When the disciples prayed and the room was shaken and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, the prayer they prayed was, "Give us boldness to preach Your Word, and that signs and wonders be done in the name of your holy child Jesus." The principal signs that resulted from their ministry was healing of the sick, starting with the lame man at the Gate Beautiful being made whole.

John 20:30-31

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What are the signs recorded in John?

• Turning Water Into Wine (John 2:1-12) ...
• Healing the Nobleman's Son (John 4:46-54) ...
• Healing the Man at the Pool (John 5:1-11) ...
• Feeding of the 5,000 (John 6:1-15) ...
• Walking on Water (John 6:16-21) ...
• Healing a Man Born Blind (John 9:1-12) ...
• Resurrecting Lazarus (John 11)

How many healing miracles are in this list?

If that is not enough, Luke 7 recorded:

19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I just don't know if it's fair or right to say "very few people are being healed". There's no way you can possibly know how many are or aren't being healed. I don't think it's nearly as bad as what's being presented. Can it be better, probably. That's the point of my OP, what steps can we take to a more biblical style healing?

Jesus told people to do something contrary to their condition to exercise faith. Lame? get up and walk. Dead? Get up! Deaf? Ears be opened! That type of deal.

My background is that I was converted to Christ in the AoG in Lower Hutt, Wellington NZ. in1966. I was taught from the word go that healing is for today. There was a lot of teaching about it from all the big names of the time, including Smith Wigglesworth, A A Allen, T L Osborne, Kathryn Kuhlman and Oral Roberts. During the time I was in Wellington, I didn't see anyone healed in spite of being in what was then one of the foremost Pentecostal churches of the late 1960s.

I moved to Palmerston North and was involved in another Pentecostal church which had regular healing conferences, inviting the range of recognised healing evangelists. This was before the time of the Prosperity preachers. I didn't hear of Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Meyer until the early 1980s. So all the big name healing evangelists we had during the 1970s had a basis of sound Pentecostal doctrine. I was in Palmerston North for eleven years. So, for 14 years being involved with healing teaching, meetings and conferences, I did not see even one person healed.

I remember asking my pastor, who had a Methodist Holiness background, plus a faithful Pentecostal who believed in divine healing, having been healed of a life threatening heart condition while in his late 40s. I first met him when he was 66 years old, totally fit and healthy. He had a stroke around 10 years later and died at around 78 from pneumonia. He said that the reason why people are not getting healed is due to shortcomings in the body of Christ.

From around 1980 through to the early 2000s I decided to adopt a skeptical approach to the modern techniques of the healing ministry which for me did not work, yet still knowing that God's will is to heal sick people. In the early 2000s I decided to do some serious research, and while doing my M.Div around 2014, my research paper was on the healing ministry, from the Scripture, history, and current methods. From that research I knew that God does heal sick people, but not on demand.

Then I observed the so called healing ministry of Todd Bentley, Todd White, Benny Hinn and Reinhard Bonnke. Todd Bentley was asked to provide 5 medical certificates that proved his claims of healing. He couldn't. I also discovered that Todd White's leg lengthening was a total fraud in which it showed clearly that he was manipulating a person's foot to make it appear the other leg was being lengthened. I also watched documentaries where they showed that in Benny Hinn's and Reinhard Bonnke's crusades, the really seriously ill people were kept from the platform and only relatively minor cases were prayed for. One telling case was when Kenneth Copeland prayed for a guy in a wheel chair and he fell backwards, wheelchair and all supposedly under the power of God. Puzzlingly, although the guy went down under the power of God, there was not enough power to get him out of the wheelchair and walking. So all these things muddied the waters for me, because God was obviously not healing anyone through these men.

So, although in other environments, people may have been healed, much of the testimonies I have read have consisted of hearsay, although if a person was really healed of cancer or heart failure, I don't believe they would lie about it, especially if there were witnesses to the veracity of the healing. Oral Roberts was healed of TB, and I believe it, because if it was false, his parents would have spoken up at some time. I had a friend in the early 70s who was profoundly deaf in both ears, went and had an operation on one ear, but found he could hear through the other ear. I believe him because he was a very honest, straightforward man not given to exaggeration. And yet the senior leader of Palmerston North Teen Challenge who totally believed in the healing ministry, remained profoundly deaf in both ears and was never healed. I had another friend, a very saintly woman who love the Lord, but had rheumatic arthritis which totally crippled her, and she finally went blind. She was prayed for over the years by all the big name guys who came to Wellington, but was never healed, in spite of continually praying for her own healing all her life until her death.

So in the light of all this, I see the disparity between God's clear word about healing, which I totally believe, and the lack of observable results which I have seen over the last 50 years. This is why I have now decided to question why there is this disparity. All I am wanting to do is to be honest and to state things as they are.

Perhaps Leonard Ravenhill is right. The church is in a sorry state, and needs a revival to get us back on track. Maybe, by God's grace it might happen and then we will see more widespread divine healing. When we look at the mess our health system is in, we need it!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Then I observed the so called healing ministry of Todd Bentley, Todd White, Benny Hinn and Reinhard Bonnke. Todd Bentley was asked to provide 5 medical certificates that proved his claims of healing. He couldn't. I also discovered that Todd White's leg lengthening was a total fraud in which it showed clearly that he was manipulating a person's foot to make it appear the other leg was being lengthened. I also watched documentaries where they showed that in Benny Hinn's and Reinhard Bonnke's crusades, the really seriously ill people were kept from the platform and only relatively minor cases were prayed for. One telling case was when Kenneth Copeland prayed for a guy in a wheel chair and he fell backwards, wheelchair and all supposedly under the power of God. Puzzlingly, although the guy went down under the power of God, there was not enough power to get him out of the wheelchair and walking. So all these things muddied the waters for me, because God was obviously not healing anyone through these men.

You are a wise man. I mean that, not proding you at all. I know we have our disagreements here, we all do, and that's fine as long as we speak the truth as we see it in love.

It's not wise to use wolves in sheeps clothing to bring disrepute upon the power of God. People have used charlatan's like TB in this forum since before I started posting here in 2012. Jesus told us such people would exist and carry on. Paul warned the church about such as well. So I think billboarding those individuals as proof that healing is fake is pointless and wrong.

It is ok to question stuff, as long as we are doing it from the angle of seeking to understand. People can obviously question just for the intent of bringing discredit on something. But questioning to seek better understanding and wisdom is ok I think.

James 1:5 says to ask God for wisdom if we are lacking and He will grant it to those who ask in faith.

But perhaps an angle to this though is instead of stopping at questioning, why not then intercede for the church? Sure, seek the Lord and ask Him for wisdom as to why you are not seeing these things more. Then when you believe He has shown you why, take that to Him in prayer.

By doing so you are now part of the solution. You know? Like if you, if I, really believe that healings should be taking place but we are seeing a profound lack of them. Why not pray about it and ask the Lord to increase those? What is the worst that could happen in that scenario? He says no? I mean, scriptures are abundantly clear to anyone who reads them sincerely that God will answer the prayer offered:

1) in faith
2) according to His will

So let's do that. Let's seek the Lord if we are seeing a lack of healing in our community and/or sphere of influence. Ask Him for specific reasons why it isn't more apparent. And then intercede for the saints according to God's will and become part of the solution. I'm already praying about this and have been for some time now, join me in that!

 

[Always in His Presence]

So, how do you account for the numbers of faithful believers who are living sanctified lives who are not healed when they get sick?

One thing I do NOT do is blame the one who took stripes on His back for my healing.

 

[Always in His Presence]

that very few people are actually healed, and we are without any practical steps to bring the facts into line with God's Word.

Where do you live that you don’t see, or have knowledge of the thousands and hundreds of thousands that do in fact receive their physical healing on a consistent basis?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thank you for the discussion, saints. It is always good to sharpen your iron with other irons! If I have offended you, please forgive me. it is a blessing to discuss these hard issues with knowledgeable friends in a good spirit.
Blessings!

 

[ARBITER01]

So we are basically stuck with the disparity between God's Word about healing, which doesn't lie, and the fact that very few people are actually healed, and we are without any practical steps to bring the facts into line with God's Word.

I don't think your reasoning is even remotely realistic Oscarr.

Why don't we have 5 million Smith Wigglesworth's in the body of Christ right now?

You want an answer? Well here it is,... because no one wants to put the time into it with GOD to have the results. It doesn't just take an anointing upon your head to have a healing ministry, it also takes communion and fellowship with GOD on a daily regular basis to have His holiness rub off onto you and the power of The Holy Spirit to reside upon you,... and that takes a lot of time. This was why Wigglesworth and others had such success in their ministries with healing. They remained separate from the world. They applied their time with GOD to have the results.

Again, it has nothing to do with any church situation or wrongful application of GOD's word as you keep banging on about,... it comes down to the individual and their relationship with GOD.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are a wise man. I mean that, not proding you at all. I know we have our disagreements here, we all do, and that's fine as long as we speak the truth as we see it in love.

It's not wise to use wolves in sheeps clothing to bring disrepute upon the power of God. People have used charlatan's like TB in this forum since before I started posting here in 2012. Jesus told us such people would exist and carry on. Paul warned the church about such as well. So I think billboarding those individuals as proof that healing is fake is pointless and wrong.

It is ok to question stuff, as long as we are doing it from the angle of seeking to understand. People can obviously question just for the intent of bringing discredit on something. But questioning to seek better understanding and wisdom is ok I think.

James 1:5 says to ask God for wisdom if we are lacking and He will grant it to those who ask in faith.

But perhaps an angle to this though is instead of stopping at questioning, why not then intercede for the church? Sure, seek the Lord and ask Him for wisdom as to why you are not seeing these things more. Then when you believe He has shown you why, take that to Him in prayer.

By doing so you are now part of the solution. You know? Like if you, if I, really believe that healings should be taking place but we are seeing a profound lack of them. Why not pray about it and ask the Lord to increase those? What is the worst that could happen in that scenario? He says no? I mean, scriptures are abundantly clear to anyone who reads them sincerely that God will answer the prayer offered:

1) in faith
2) according to His will

So let's do that. Let's seek the Lord if we are seeing a lack of healing in our community and/or sphere of influence. Ask Him for specific reasons why it isn't more apparent. And then intercede for the saints according to God's will and become part of the solution. I'm already praying about this and have been for some time now, join me in that!

Thanks for that.

Ever since I went forward for prayer for a serious sinus condition and got told by the big name guy who had a reputation for getting people, that I needed to give up dairy products as his solution to my problem, I have struggled with the promises in in Scripture on one side, and the failure of even the best healing ministries (beside the Prosperity ones) to actually get people healed. I have had many serious conversations with the Lord about it where I have been honest and straight up with the Lord that I have never seen anyone healed, in spite of my prayers and the prayers of others for them.

I have purchased and read every book I could get my hands on concerning the healing ministry, filling up half my bookcase with the authors of the principal healing ministries of the 1970s and 1980s. I have the complete works of Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake, two of the foremost proponents of the healing ministry. I have read Kathryn Kuhman's books, filled with testimonies of people who were healed. I have Guy Bevington's biography where he relates the miracles that occurred in his ministry as a Methodist Holiness itinerate evangelist during the early 20th Century. I have also read through the miracles in Church history, including St Benedict who prayed for a worker killed by falling masonry and the man was instantly raised from the dead and went straight back to work.

During my time of seeking the Lord about the lack of results in the healing ministry I came across an interesting book that had the theme that the Church itself is its worst enemy. I am sure the Lord put that book in my hands, because it gave some good information concerning why it is the failure of the Church itself that caused the gifts of the Spirit to cease in the first place, and in spite of the restoration of the gifts through the Pentecostal revival at the turn of the 20th Century, the Church is still falling below the standard of what is required to allow the Holy Spirit to flow freely in the gifts. So after all my conversations with the Lord over the years, it keeps coming back to the Church itself being at fault, while the promises of God remain true and dependable.

Yet there is a small trickle of people being healed, especially in third world countries. I have a friend from Zimbabwe who was in a group praying for a crippled girl, and they witnessed all her bones returning to their rightful positions and the girl being totally healed in the space of 30 seconds. I also, obtained a DVD containing 130 testimonies of people throughout New Zealand who were healed of a whole range of medical conditions through the ministry of Bill Subritzky.

I discovered Curry Blake's 18 DVD set of his healing technicians teaching, and watched them all. They inspired me because he based his teaching on how Jesus went about healing people. As a result, I conducted two healing conferences using his teaching and another book called "Healing The Children's Bread" by Cornel Marais and Simon Wilson. I met Simon, who is a NZr, had coffee with him and asked his permission to use his book as the text for my healing conferences. He was happy to give it. As a result he invited me to be on the ministry team for the Reinhard Bonnke crusade held in Auckland some years ago, where I was actively involved with healing of the sick. To be frank, I was a bit disappointed with that crusade, because the M.C. spent more time building up the preacher than the time the preacher himself was preaching. Then during the altar call, the music was so loud I could hear the prayer request of the people I was ministering to. I don't know of any who were healed during that crusade.

So, I hope that this shows that I am more than a keyboard warrior critic of the healing ministry, but someone who has sincerely desired to find out what the hindrances are that are stopping the full flow of what God wants to do in our churches.

It is interesting that the people I have prayed for, including non-Christians at my gym who had injuries, were very grateful that I cared enough to take the time. All I did was put my hand on their wrist and say, "Jesus heals you". Even though they were not healed right away, they had a positive response, and one young lady thanked me for the "blessing". It was significant to me that out of all the non Christians I prayed for, not one turned me down.

So there it is. I think it was quite unfair of one person on the thread to accuse me of being Cessationist, when as you are reading, my involvement in the healing ministry is anything but Cessationist.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One thing I do NOT do is blame the one who took stripes on His back for my healing.

Nor do I. What makes you think that I am blaming Jesus for people not being healed?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Where do you live that you don’t see, or have knowledge of the thousands and hundreds of thousands that do in fact receive their physical healing on a consistent basis?

First answer the above

Nor do I. What makes you think that I am blaming Jesus for people not being healed?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't think your reasoning is even remotely realistic Oscarr.

Why don't we have 5 million Smith Wigglesworth's in the body of Christ right now?

You want an answer? Well here it is,... because no one wants to put the time into it with GOD to have the results. It doesn't just take an anointing upon your head to have a healing ministry, it also takes communion and fellowship with GOD on a daily regular basis to have His holiness rub off onto you and the power of The Holy Spirit to reside upon you,... and that takes a lot of time. This was why Wigglesworth and others had such success in their ministries with healing. They remained separate from the world. They applied their time with GOD to have the results.

Again, it has nothing to do with any church situation or wrongful application of GOD's word as you keep banging on about,... it comes down to the individual and their relationship with GOD.

Wouldn't be great if we did have many Smith Wigglesworths moving around the country showing that Jesus is really alive and the same as He was during His ministry in Israel. Smith Wigglesworth was the one healing evangelist who had no falsehood, or any scandal attached to him. When I lived in Wellington NZ during the late 1960s, I had people in my church who were there during his meetings in the 1920s. One was his pianist who accompanied him throughout the country in 1922 and 1927. He said that it affected his faith mightily, and when he spoke to us about it in 1968, his face shone as he told us the stories.

Todd Bentley had Wigglesworth all wrong when he tried to copy him. The big difference was that Wigglesworth was a man of intense prayer and the Word. When the ministers in Wellington prayed with him in preparation for his meetings, the presence of God was so intense with him that they couldn't stay in the room, and they had to leave. Todd Bentley was nowhere near where Wigglesworth was with the Lord, so his pretense of being like Wigglesworth actually demeaned Wigglesworth's character and reputation among many.

I have Wigglesworth's complete works, and I am sure that if we could put those into practice and get as close to God as he did, I am sure we would get the results he got.

 

[Guojing]

Nor do I. What makes you think that I am blaming Jesus for people not being healed?

The problem with that stand is that, you have to automatically concede that the blame is on either the person trying to receive that healing, or people praying for him, or as you are currently saying, the entire church.

 

[ARBITER01]

When the ministers in Wellington prayed with him in preparation for his meetings, the presence of God was so intense with him that they couldn't stay in the room, and they had to leave.

Right there Oscarr! That right there!!

That's exactly what I'm talking about. A relationship with GOD that He is so close to you that His purity and truth not just reside in you, but rub off onto you affecting others.

It is a close relationship with GOD that is required. People want healing in the body of Christ? Well spend that much time with GOD like Smith did and you'll see it happen.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem with that stand is that, you have to automatically concede that the blame is on either the person trying to receive that healing, or people praying for him, or as you are currently saying, the entire church.

After the many years of concentrated research and conversations with the Lord concerning the healing ministry, there don't seem to be any real answers, so it remains and mystery why in the face of definite promises in God's Word that the gifts never ceased as far as God is concerned and are still for today's church, there are so few actual healings.

According to my research that involved the study of Scripture, Church History, and current healing ministry practices from the 1970s onward, there has been true healing - sometimes because of the faith of the sick person, the faith of the person praying for the sick person, and sometimes sovereign acts of God which did not involve the faith of either. Even before the birth of the Pentecostal movement in 1902 there has been a flow of genuine healing of serious medical conditions. Guy Bevington, a Methodist Holiness evangelist, not a Pentecostal, related some real miracles, including a church elder totally healed of TB, and including himself being healed of a serious respiratory attack brought on by sleeping in a damp bed that nearly cost him his life. He got out of his bed and walked to church to take the service and by the time he got there he was healed.

Smith Wigglesworth was another evangelist who had regular healing as part of his ministry. On one occasion he was travelling by streetcar and saw a man lying on the footpath in agony with severe stomach cramps. He got off the streetcar, laid hands on the man who was instantly healed. This was witnessed by a group of people who were trying to assist the man. He also spent the whole night with a man on his death bed. He kept praying until the man revived, got up off his bed totally healed. This was witnessed by the man's family and the whole neighborhood at the time. Wigglesworth was a man of intense prayer and total faith in God's Word. When he prayed with a group of ministers in Wellington NZ, the ministers had to leave because they couldn't bear the intense presence of God while he prayed. So it is no wonder that he was one of the most successful healing evangelists of his time with a string of genuine, verified healings.