Is it immoral to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass on the Sabbath?

[trophy33]

And what does the second verse I quoted say?

And? Jesus did not say its not true. His argumentation was that He is above that. Dont you read the text?

 

[trophy33]

Yes. Is that vague enough for you?

List them, then.

 

[Gary K]

And? Jesus did not say its not true. His argumentation was that He is above that. Dont you read the text?

He's dealing with people who did not take the Torah as their rule of faith. Their rule of faith was the Talmud which has hundreds of laws concerning the Sabbath.

Mat_15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat_15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mar_7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mar_7:13 Making the word of God of none effect throgh your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mar_7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Here are a couple of quotes from the Talmud on how to keep the Sabbath.

In the case of Pentecost, which falls upon the eve of a Sabbath, the House of Shammai say: The
day for sacrificing is after the Sabbath. But the House of Hillel say: There is no day for
sacrificing after the Sabbath. Both, however, admit that if it fall upon a Sabbath the day for
sacrificing is the day after the Sabbath. And on that day (which is called the day of sacrificing) a
high-priest is not to clothe himself in his costly garments, unless in case of a mourning or of a
fast. The prohibition was in order not to confirm the words of those who say, Pentecost is after
the Sabbath (only).

Mena'hem went out from the service of the king, and there went out with
him eighty pairs of disciples clothed in Syrian robes. Said R. Shaman bar Abba in the name of
R. Johanan: Let a rabbinical decree concerning the Sabbath not be a light thing in thine eyes, for
the laying on of the hand is only a rabbinical prohibition, and the greatest men of the different
generations were divided upon this matter. Is this not self-evident? He comes to teach us that
even a rabbinical prohibition which is seemingly contrary to a positive command of the Bible
must also not be light in thine eyes. But this is also self-evident from the teachings of our
Mishna? This is needed to object to those who say that they differ not as to the rabbinical
prohibition, but as to the laying on of the hand itself, because they maintain that the laying on of
the hand is necessary only in case of a voluntary peace-offering, but not in that of an obligatory
peace-offering. 1

"The Halakhath concerning Sabbath." Are not written many verses about Sabbath? Why do they
say, they are as mountains suspended by a hair? It is prohibited only to labor with an intention,
but what is and what is not labor with an intention is not written at all; but the Talmud concludes
that it is such that was done in the Tabernacle, because the commandment of Sabbath
immediately precedes the building of the Tabernacle [Ex. xxv.].

Notice that there is constant tension even among the rabbis what is right and what is wrong on the Sabbath?

Mar 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Gary K]

List them, then.

List what? Every scripture I've posted here?

 

[trophy33]

List what? Every scripture I've posted here?

Which laws of Moses we must keep and which ones not (according to your beliefs).

 

[trophy33]

He's dealing with people who did not take the Torah as their rule of faith. Their rule of faith was the Talmud which has hundreds of laws concerning the Sabbath.











Here are a couple of quotes from the Talmud on how to keep the Sabbath.






Notice that there is constant tension even among the rabbis what is right and what is wrong on the Sabbath?

Again, Jesus did not say they are wrong. He argued that He is above that, because He is more than temple and more than David. Keep focus on the text.

 

[Gary K]

Which laws of Moses we must keep and which ones not (according to your beliefs).

You don't have to keep anything you don't want to. God gave all of us the ability to obey Him or not obey Him.

I've gone over this so many times I'm not inclined to do this again. Read my previous posts.

 

[trophy33]

You don't have to keep anything you don't want to. God gave all of us the ability to obey Him or not obey Him.

I've gone over this so many times I'm not inclined to do this again. Read my previous posts.

You can refer me to a post in which you clearly specified which laws we must keep and which not (according to your belief). I have never seen such post from you.

 

[Gary K]

You can refer me to a post in which you clearly specified which laws we must keep and which not (according to your belief). I have never seen such post from you.

I haved posted this stuff many times as I've been asked many different questions along this line.

 

[trophy33]

I haved posted this stuff many times as I've been asked many different questions along this line.

I am not asking you many different question, I am asking you one question. Where is the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep, in your belief.

Or is it vague and subjective?

 

[Gary K]

I am not asking you many different question, I am asking you one question. Where is the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep, in your belief.

Or is it vague and subjective?

Take it any way you please. I'm done trying to talk to you.

 

[das grosse schwein]

I am not asking you many different question, I am asking you one question. Where is the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep, in your belief.

Or is it vague and subjective?

I do not know what the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep. There are a lot of things I do not know about the Bible but I do know that I want to keep the weekly Sabbath because it makes me feel good. I feel that God approves of my behavior. I don't know everything that the Bible teaches but what I do know is I am happier living the way I am right now.

There may be some subjective elements in my interpretation of the Sabbath, but time will tell if I am right or not in what I do. I will continue to read this thread and from time to time chime in with a comment or two.

 

[BobRyan]

You do not understand the context and meaning of Mk 2:27, it was discussed already in some other thread.

hint: you are not even quoting it at all - much less showing some other view of it.
You provide no actual fact to support your false accusation above.

Here is the text you are not even quoting (much less accurately rendering/translating/interpreting)
"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

We know what "mankind" is -- as it turns out.,
It just does not get any easier than this

Matt 4 "MANKIND does not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

1. Even though the translation "mankind" of the Greek word is technically possible, its not the right one regarding the context and culture

That comes across as mere "wishful thinking" on your part. You realize that of course.

Gen 1-2 speaks of the making of BOTH mankind AND the seventh day set aside as a holy day of worship dedicated to God. As everyone knows.

(thats why you will not find it in the vast majority of translations).

The vast majority say "man" and not "JEW" - the point remains.

'MAN shall not live by bread alone' Matt 4 -- as in "MANKIND"

It just does not get any easier than this.

2. The context is that the disciples broke Sabbath

Not true. They broke the tradition of certain Pharisees but they did not violate scripture.
In Acts 10 Peter says that Cornelius knew how UNLAWFUL it was for a Jew to eat with a gentile - yet NO SUCH LAW exists in the OT as we all know.
Mark 7:7-13 Christ condemned the very traditions of the Pharisees that you seek to affirm.

, but they were not guilty, because they were with Jesus.'

Not true. Jesus states in Matt 5 that anyone teaching that Jesus was setting an example of breaking God's word - has false doctrine.

3. Proclaiming that Sabbath is for the whole humanity, out of the blue, does not fit the story at all.

They all had that as the context for that event "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" IS 66:23 - and we all know it.

You have free will of course and can think anything you wish - but you should not suppose that the rest of us will view it in a certain way simply because "you wish it".

Also, Mark is not the only place where this event is recorded (prove your interpretation of the story from Matthew, for example)

There we have a perfect example of why your position comes across as "wishful thinking".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do not know what the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep. There are a lot of things I do not know about the Bible but I do know that I want to keep the weekly Sabbath because it makes me feel good. I feel that God approves of my behavior. I don't know everything that the Bible teaches but what I do know is I am happier living the way I am right now.

There may be some subjective elements in my interpretation of the Sabbath, but time will tell if I am right or not in what I do. I will continue to read this thread and from time to time chime in with a comment or two.

All of God’s commandments are Truth Psa 119:151 and the Truth shall set you free John 8:32 its the best feeling following and obeying God’s Word.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[BobRyan]

I do not know what the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep. There are a lot of things I do not know about the Bible but I do know that I want to keep the weekly Sabbath because it makes me feel good. I feel that God approves of my behavior. I don't know everything that the Bible teaches but what I do know is I am happier living the way I am right now.

There may be some subjective elements in my interpretation of the Sabbath, but time will tell if I am right or not in what I do. I will continue to read this thread and from time to time chime in with a comment or two.

1 john 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you remain in Him.

Listen to the Holy Spirit

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them at the present time. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness;

 

[Yekcidmij]

If I were a Sabbatarian, I think I'd say that along with at least some 1st century Jews, tending to life takes priority - the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Depending on specific circumstances and further information, helping a disabled widow cut grass could possibly take priority.

 

[trophy33]

I do not know what the complete list of Mosaic laws we are commanded to keep. There are a lot of things I do not know about the Bible but I do know that I want to keep the weekly Sabbath because it makes me feel good. I feel that God approves of my behavior. I don't know everything that the Bible teaches but what I do know is I am happier living the way I am right now.

There may be some subjective elements in my interpretation of the Sabbath, but time will tell if I am right or not in what I do. I will continue to read this thread and from time to time chime in with a comment or two.

"Feeling good" is hardly a good measurement regarding what commandments you choose to keep.

 

[trophy33]

Take it any way you please. I'm done trying to talk to you.

That was quick. Teaching "God wants us to keep some of Mosaic commandments", but inability to say which ones, is obviously problematic from the beginning.

 

[trophy33]

hint: you are not even quoting it at all - much less showing some other view of it.
You provide no actual fact to support your false accusation above.

Here is the text you are not even quoting (much less accurately rendering/translating/interpreting)
"The Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

We know what "mankind" is -- as it turns out.,
It just does not get any easier than this

Matt 4 "MANKIND does not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

That comes across as mere "wishful thinking" on your part. You realize that of course.

Gen 1-2 speaks of the making of BOTH mankind AND the seventh day set aside as a holy day of worship dedicated to God. As everyone knows.


The vast majority say "man" and not "JEW" - the point remains.

'MAN shall not live by bread alone' Matt 4 -- as in "MANKIND"

It just does not get any easier than this.

Not true. They broke the tradition of certain Pharisees but they did not violate scripture.
In Acts 10 Peter says that Cornelius knew how UNLAWFUL it was for a Jew to eat with a gentile - yet NO SUCH LAW exists in the OT as we all know.
Mark 7:7-13 Christ condemned the very traditions of the Pharisees that you seek to affirm.

Not true. Jesus states in Matt 5 that anyone teaching that Jesus was setting an example of breaking God's word - has false doctrine.

They all had that as the context for that event "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" IS 66:23 - and we all know it.

You have free will of course and can think anything you wish - but you should not suppose that the rest of us will view it in a certain way simply because "you wish it".

There we have a perfect example of why your position comes across as "wishful thinking".

Both Jesus and his disciples broke Sabbath, they did not argue they did not. Regarding this specific place, the argument of Jesus was that His disciples are not guilty, because they are with Jesus and Jesus is above that, more than temple (priests are allowed to break it too, because of the temple), more than David (who ate bread he was not allowed to eat) etc.

Its directly and explicitly in the text, just read it as it it.

The verse you single out is not about "sabbath is given to all humanity", it does not fit the flow of the story and of their conversation at all. And the sentence is not even present in the Matthew version.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

"Feeling good" is hardly a good measurement regarding what commandments you choose to keep.

True it’s not, many times our feelings can be deceiving. However, when we “feel good” and are following and obeying God’s Word for us, which we are to live by every Word, Mat 4:4 through faith, not sight- God blesses us Isaiah 58:13-14 Rev 22:14 It’s a liberating feeling that nothing can beat.