• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

It's so difficult to find a non dispensational church...

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
What is the difference of a dispensation and non- dispensation church and why you want a non-dispensation church?
Dispensationalism will ignore a lot of the old testament and claim that even parts of the new testament are not for the Church, or if they do teach it it's with the caveat of "this only applies to Israel"
I don't like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
The church is not grafted into Israel. What was grafted in was gentiles that became Jews. The Church is an entirely new creation, we are a new man.
I already addressed this. Romans 1 teaches who the entire letter is for

Romans 1
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is not people practicing Judaism, these are people who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church was established in Matthew 16.

This post that I'm responding to @Jojo Paguio, this is why I don't want a dispensational church, this nonsense that Romans isn't even directed at Christians but at people converting to Judaism.
This is why dispensationalism as an entire theological system must die.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
You'll not get anything because its not the Romans book That is Revelation the end times. They just only promoting Pauls teaching which is related to the vision of John. Christian vs Paulinian I guess what you are looking for is Christian church doctrine and there is no dispensation in christian church only paulinian works on it for debate.
Yeah.. the most hardcore dispensationalists will only go over the epistles of Paul most the time. That's the worst of the worst. I can't be edified on a diet of Paul alone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Sorn

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2018
1,381
316
62
Perth
✟215,910.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I already addressed this. Romans 1 teaches who the entire letter is for

Romans 1


This is not people practicing Judaism, these are people who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church was established in Matthew 16.

This post that I'm responding to @Jojo Paguio, this is why I don't want a dispensational church, this nonsense that Romans isn't even directed at Christians but at people converting to Judaism.
This is why dispensationalism as an entire theological system must die.
Romans 1 is for all gentiles in Rome who had converted to Judaism, ie proselytes.
 
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Dispensationalism will ignore a lot of the old testament and claim that even parts of the new testament are not for the Church, or if they do teach it it's with the caveat of "this only applies to Israel"
I don't like that.
You don't like them but I like your vision you are right the bible it self or the verses they are using is for the Israelite only. well what they are doing is what the Lord says if you bless my nation I will bless you the same that what He said in the old testament, but they are all forgotten, that their Father Abraham is a gentiles not Israel.
 

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 1 is for all gentiles in Rome who had converted to Judaism, ie proselytes.
Rome converted to Judaism more probably nye... impossible remember what happened in colesium they all burned to hell by king Nero. What time proselytes exist and what kind of community are they while Pual is in the mission in Rome?
 
Upvote 0

Sorn

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2018
1,381
316
62
Perth
✟215,910.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Rome converted to Judaism more probably nye... impossible remember what happened in colesium they all burned to hell by king Nero. What time proselytes exist and what kind of community are they while Pual is in the mission in Rome?
Paul did not reach Rome until late in his ministry, but there were plenty of Jews in Rome, some would have heard of Christ as would the gentiles there that had converted to Judaism.
There would have been ample opportunity for roman citizens to become proselytes, ie convert to Judaism and also believe in Christ.
Some would have been proselytes but not believed in Christ, other proselytes would have believed in Christ. It is to these that Paul is speaking to.


 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I already addressed this. Romans 1 teaches who the entire letter is for

Romans 1


This is not people practicing Judaism, these are people who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church was established in Matthew 16.

This post that I'm responding to @Jojo Paguio, this is why I don't want a dispensational church, this nonsense that Romans isn't even directed at Christians but at people converting to Judaism.
This is why dispensationalism as an entire theological system must die.
Jamdoc no matter what either Jew or gentiles the issue in dispensation is the time of second coming of ChristJesus but the new Jerusalem will be govern by the elders of the election for 1kyrs. They just only try to unfold time thru mathematical equation then wait the time if prophecy will occure on that time.
 
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Paul did not reach Rome until late in his ministry, but there were plenty of Jews in Rome, some would have heard of Christ as would the gentiles there that had converted to Judaism.
There would have been ample opportunity for roman citizens to become proselytes, ie convert to Judaism and also believe in Christ.
Some would have been proselytes but not believed in Christ, other proselytes would have believed in Christ. It is to these that Paul is speaking to.


Jesus convert Judaism to Christianity the time of John the baptist.
 
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Paul did not reach Rome until late in his ministry, but there were plenty of Jews in Rome, some would have heard of Christ as would the gentiles there that had converted to Judaism.
There would have been ample opportunity for roman citizens to become proselytes, ie convert to Judaism and also believe in Christ.
Some would have been proselytes but not believed in Christ, other proselytes would have believed in Christ. It is to these that Paul is speaking to.


Thanks for that info. From that it shows that judaism exist in Rome before Christ era. So Judism in Rome is not related to Christian believers in Rome. The one he talkswith is those christian from Jerusalem and runaway because of persecution to them so they scattered to Asia minor and to Europe.
 
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I already addressed this. Romans 1 teaches who the entire letter is for

Romans 1


This is not people practicing Judaism, these are people who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church was established in Matthew 16.

This post that I'm responding to @Jojo Paguio, this is why I don't want a dispensational church, this nonsense that Romans isn't even directed at Christians but at people converting to Judaism.
This is why dispensationalism as an entire theological system must die.
Dispensation is not a standard doctrine of the church but some church build through its believe, it is a teaching or study on when the second coming of Christ will be with thier study in mathematical equation. They watching the prophecy in thier equation if it will fit on the time of events were they can say it is the time of his coming. If that so they can convert people in the name of thier church and earn much more money they needed. So thay use lots of passage to allure and misled christians.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Romans 1 is for all gentiles in Rome who had converted to Judaism, ie proselytes.

No it absolutely is NOT.
Read it again without dumb dispensational garbage clouding your vision.

1`Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul is not talking as a Pharisee here, but as a Christian.

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Paul is here alluding to the fact that you can find hints at the Gospel in the Old Testament, that these promises to forgive sin and gain eternal life are not totally new you can find them in scripture if you look, this is important for converting Jews from Judaism to Christianity.

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Declaring Jesus and the gospel, not the laws of Moses.

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
This letter is for Christians, not Jews. The difference between Jews and Christians is most significantly, their view on Jesus, whether He is the messiah or not.

To Further support that Romans is not directed at new converts to Judaism with Paul speaking as a pharisee..
Romans 2
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Here Paul is arguing about the lack of importance in physical circumcision and stressing the importance of inward "circumcision"
Does that sound like a Judaizer to you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Dispensation is not a standard doctrine of the church but some church build through its believe, it is a teaching or study on when the second coming of Christ will be with thier study in mathematical equation. They watching the prophecy in thier equation if it will fit on the time of events were they can say it is the time of his coming. If that so they can convert people in the name of thier church and earn much more money they needed. So thay use lots of passage to allure and misled christians.

Dispensationalism is a vital doctrine to any churches that believe in pretribulational rapture (without dispensationalism the entire concept of pretrib rapture falls apart).. which is.. most American churches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No it absolutely is NOT.
Read it again without dumb dispensational garbage clouding your vision.


Paul is not talking as a Pharisee here, but as a Christian.


Paul is here alluding to the fact that you can find hints at the Gospel in the Old Testament, that these promises to forgive sin and gain eternal life are not totally new you can find them in scripture if you look, this is important for converting Jews from Judaism to Christianity.


Declaring Jesus and the gospel, not the laws of Moses.


This letter is for Christians, not Jews. The difference between Jews and Christians is most significantly, their view on Jesus, whether He is the messiah or not.

To Further support that Romans is not directed at new converts to Judaism with Paul speaking as a pharisee..
Romans 2

Here Paul is arguing about the lack of importance in physical circumcision and stressing the importance of inward "circumcision"
Does that sound like a Judaizer to you?
What is the importance of your dispensation to the differences of Judaism and Christianity, what do really Paul want to say to Romans people about your dispensation?
 
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Dispensationalism is a vital doctrine to any churches that believe in pretribulational rapture (without dispensationalism the entire concept of pretrib rapture falls apart).. which is.. most American churches.
Pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib is just only creation of bible schoolar of the book revelation the vision(dream) of John. Why are you so affected of rapture in end times are you not sure your going to heaven or not save yet?
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,802
1,176
33
York
✟158,327.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I just moved and now I'm having to look for a new church, there is a KJV independent fundamental baptist church literally 2 blocks away from me but.. as is common for protestant denomination churches they are dispensationalist pretribulationists.

ever since meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time, I can't take dispensationalism seriously anymore.
However because of meditating on Romans 11 for a significant amount of time I can't take Ammillenialists who parrot off "we're spiritual Israel, the church replaces Israel" seriously either.

Israel as branches of the olive tree were broken off from unbelief, and we, the wild branches, were grafted into the tree, but Paul says God will lift the blindness from Israel and they will be grafted back in.

So it's not a replacement, nor is it 2 separate plans. John in Revelation 7 makes a distinction between the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, and the great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation. I think there's a difference but it's not so hard line as dispensationalists tote.
Why is it so hard to find a church that doesn't swing to either extreme on this issue?
I am a premellinialist but everyone else in my church is not. My church aslo baptizes babies, but I do not know whether that is right or not, i heard good arguments on both sides.

I do not attend my church to be in agreement with everything that is taught there, I attend my church because God is worshipped and loved, Jesus is the centre of our teaching and we love one another even when we disagree about Eschatology.

I know a Christian who attends a church with premil view, but they allow sin there, they allow preacher who lives in adultery, there is no love there. I would not attend such church even if they are in agreement with me on Eschatology.

Remember why we gather in church, it is to worship God. Furthermore, there is not perfect church and there is not a church or a Christian that you will agree on with everything 100%.

You have to ask yourself why you attend Church.

Now of course there are some teaching that would make me leave the church ie false gospel. You have to ask your self whether Eschatology is such teaching. Maybe it is maybe it isn't
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jojo Paguio

Active Member
Aug 13, 2023
60
2
50
Dasmarinas. CALABARZON
✟19,088.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
eschatology: (n.) the branch of theology that is concerned with such final things as death and Last Judgment; Heaven and Hell; the ultimate destiny of humankind; Physical and spiritual views of a church relaying on Gospel of salvation. No one can fulfil that except the second coming of the Lord JesusChrist. To find a church who are sucessfully achieved that no church yet can be found in the history of the church.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I am a premellinialist but everyone else in my church is not. My church aslo baptizes babies, but I do not know whether that is right or not, i heard good arguments on both sides.

I do not attend my church to be in agreement with everything that is taught there, I attend my church because God is worshipped and loved, Jesus is the centre of our teaching and we love one another even when we disagree about Eschatology.

I know a Christian who attends a church with premil view, but they allow sin there, they allow preacher who lives in adultery, there is no love there. I would not attend such church even if they are in agreement with me on Eschatology.

Remember why we gather in church, it is to worship God. Furthermore, there is not perfect church and there is not a church or a Christian that you will agree on with everything 100%.

You have to ask yourself why you attend Church.

Now of course there are some teaching that would make me leave the church ie false gospel. You have to ask your self whether Eschatology is such teaching. Maybe it is maybe it isn't
it's not eschatology so much as more of how they handle scripture, cherrypicking "this is for the church" and "this is for Israel" and the more extreme examples almost teach exclusively out of the epistles of Paul, and Amillennial churches I don't like how they make everything a symbol, which gives them "permission" to interpret everything however they feel like.

as to why I seek a church in the first place it's because it's commanded and mostly to hear the word of God preached.
To be honest I'm not particularly big on the "worship" parts of Church, as I don't enjoy singing. I hate the sound and feel of my own voice coming out of my throat.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
What is the importance of your dispensation to the differences of Judaism and Christianity, what do really Paul want to say to Romans people about your dispensation?
the important thing is that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. All scripture should be taught.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2019
8,360
2,624
Redacted
✟276,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib is just only creation of bible schoolar of the book revelation the vision(dream) of John. Why are you so affected of rapture in end times are you not sure your going to heaven or not save yet?

It's mostly because of how pretribulationists handle prophetic scripture, with constant "reassurances" that "we won't be here for any of this, this is for Israel", like they have to convince themselves.

I dunno, I suppose what I value so highly is scripture,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jojo Paguio
Upvote 0