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Xeno.of.athens

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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?
 
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Sorn

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Most Christians and mainstream Christianity believes that something that is you does continue. If it doesn't, that is if you cease to exist completely, then you can't be brought back to life, the best that God could do in those circumstances is to make a copy of you, so it would be the 1st copy or clone of you that would go into eternal life, but not you.
I don't think that is the case, i think something that is us, that God will not copy and that is needed to have in a physical body for it to be alive survives our death. This thing is most commonly referred to as the soul, spirit, consciousness etc, & is something that only God can destroy.

I'm sure God wants the actual people who made the choice for Him in Heaven and not a copy of them.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I've mentioned this ad infinitum, but the night my father died he appeared in my room. He started to materialise near the door, and moved towards the foot of the bed.

My first word were "How the hell did you get in here??" as the place was locked up tight.

He didn't answer that but replied, "I've come (or been sent) to apologise. We had no idea what you were going through."

I snarled back "You mean you had no idea what you were doing to me!!"

It went on in that fashion, and at the end he gave this blood curdling scream. Then he just disappeared and I haven't seen him since.

However he had no brain, no body, no vocal organs, no ears and no eyes. I could see through him or focus on him. I still remember being able to see a chipboard bookcase with a sagging shelf behind him and through him.

Yet we were talking. It was his voice which I knew all too well from 20 abusive years. He could hear, he could see (and he could also something behind me that at times enthralled him, and at other times appalled him), and it was obvious he could think. He knew what I was talking about and I knew what he was talking about including people we both knew, although he mentioned one person known to me but not to him So he could also see and knew things he would not normally have known about.

Yet his body was lying dead in a unit in a suburb called Nundah and I was living in a suburb called Yeronga. Using this application the two addresses were directly 13.91 kms (8.64 miles) apart.


Four days later one of my uncles turned up to tell me he'd died, but it was a mess as his body hadn't been found for four days.

I'm not the only one - in my last job I met a lady who claimed her husband visited her the night he died, and he also apologised for being abusive. She said something white was sitting on the foot of the bed. More interesting still is that he eldest daughter had the same experience and he apologised to her as well. Apparently he'd been most abusive to her by far out of all the children. And again he sat on the foot of the bed.

I visited a psychiatrist for depression for some years, but he was also a spiritual Catholic. I think it was about four years ago when he said to me "Something strange happened last weekend". I think it was in August so it was probably about four years this month.

It turned out that at a mass in a Catholic Church in a suburb called Indooroopilly there was an announcement that a parishioner had died that morning. But she'd also been one of his patients. He knew her.

He said "She was in the church!" He could see her. He said she seemed to be trying to get his attention, but eventually gave up and moved towards the other side of the church. He thought she might have had family on that side. In his case I don't think there was a verbal exchange.

If we canvassed the entire population I believe we'd find quite a number of people have had deceased relatives and / or friends appear to them after they've died, and in some cases I thnk they might have had a verbal exchange.

The spirit lives on after the body dies, and it has the same mental facilities (possibly improved faclities) that the person had when they were still alive. How body, mind and soul are intertwined while we are still in the body I have no idea, but they are.
 
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BobRyan

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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Most Christians and mainstream Christianity believes that something that is you does continue. If it doesn't, that is if you cease to exist completely, then you can't be brought back to life, the best that God could do in those circumstances is to make a copy of you, so it would be the 1st copy or clone of you that would go into eternal life, but not you.

Very good point. The Bible speaks of a dormant state - but not cease-to-exist.


despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?

ahh yes. "There's the rub" as they say.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

John 11:
11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.”

Ps 146:
2 While I live will I praise the Lord: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Matt 22:32 "God is not the god of the dead but of the living" - (proving the future resurrection of the dead)
 
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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?
the book speaks of two deaths ...
 
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Clare73

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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?
For the born again, the body in the grave, or cremated, returns to the chemicals of its make-up,
the human spirit is with Christ (2 Co 5:1-7) and
at the resurrection one is reunited with one's glorified body--sinless, incorruptible and in glory.
 
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eleos1954

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Most Christians and mainstream Christianity believes that something that is you does continue. If it doesn't, that is if you cease to exist completely, then you can't be brought back to life, the best that God could do in those circumstances is to make a copy of you, so it would be the 1st copy or clone of you that would go into eternal life, but not you.
I don't think that is the case, i think something that is us, that God will not copy and that is needed to have in a physical body for it to be alive survives our death. This thing is most commonly referred to as the soul, spirit, consciousness etc, & is something that only God can destroy.

I'm sure God wants the actual people who made the choice for Him in Heaven and not a copy of them.
We are mortal (subject to death) the bible teaches of two deaths ... the first death (earthly death) is temporal because one day ALL will be resurrected.

Those in the first resurrection will enter the kingdom of heaven. We will be given new bodies that are not corruptible and eternal life ... our minds and bodies will be completely devoid of sin. Our current earthly bodies do not survive ... we will be given new bodies.

There are complete records of everyone's lives kept in heaven .... 1st resurrection ... God will restore their records to them (less their sin) ... so a "partial copy" (so to speak) ... this "partial copy" will be in a new body. Flesh and bones.

Luke 24

38“Why are you troubled,” Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

We will be like Him .... sinless and flesh and bones (looking forward to this day!) .... not some disembodied "sprit" of some kind.

So, the first death (cease to exist on planet earth - a temporary state - dormant in the grave) ... second death cease to exist for eternity. In the second resurrection the records of those lives will be restored to them (including their sin) ... they will have resurrected corruptible bodies. It is sin that corrupts the mind and body. They will be raised up (restored to) their original earthly minds and bodies and final judgement (for eternity) will ensue.

Romans 7:18 ESV​

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I never have been convinced by soul sleep arguments.
The "particular" (personal) judgement takes place immediately after death.

From the Catholic Catechism - 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.

The "Final Judgment" of all Mankind will come at the end of time.

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust," 623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." 624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him .... Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.... And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There's a good summary and explanation for the two judgements here -

 
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Offline4Better.

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Most Christians and mainstream Christianity believes that something that is you does continue. If it doesn't, that is if you cease to exist completely, then you can't be brought back to life, the best that God could do in those circumstances is to make a copy of you, so it would be the 1st copy or clone of you that would go into eternal life, but not you.
I don't think that is the case, i think something that is us, that God will not copy and that is needed to have in a physical body for it to be alive survives our death. This thing is most commonly referred to as the soul, spirit, consciousness etc, & is something that only God can destroy.

I'm sure God wants the actual people who made the choice for Him in Heaven and not a copy of them.
Agreed. Believers will go to heaven as their own spirit* which they had on Earth, as shown by Jesus himself on that Sunday circa ~33 AD we now know as Easter. Well, an Easter minus the bunny and the overabundance of chocolate, though that German chocolate is good stuff. Shame that chocolate bar wasn't invented until the 19th century, though precursors to chocolate were developed by Olmec Mexicans in 1500 BC.

*For me, it would be great to hopefully keep my sense of humor in Heaven, to make the angels laugh when God invites me into his Kingdom when the time arrives. Whether spirits contain all the positive aspects of our personality on Earth is probably not known, or I haven't done any Bible research on that topic yet. Probably the latter. Am only like almost aged 24 here, so I am not a wise sage as everybody else is on here. ;)
 
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Bob Crowley

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CS Lewis was not a theologian, but I think he had insights that a lot of us don't.

While it is a religious allegory aka. fiction, I'd suggest you read his story "The Great Divorce".

What comes through loud and clear is that those who are admitted to heaven not only have their own personalities, but they transcend the qualities they had while living on earth.

What also comes through is that those who don't get to heaven don't want to change their ways - the heretical Anglican bishop, a burly thief, the self pitying "poet", and a tyrannical boss who was murdered by one of his employees, while the employee was (ironically) in heaven.
 
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Offline4Better.

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While CS Lewis was not a theologian, I think he had insights that a lot of us don't.

While it is a religious allegory aka. fiction, I'd suggest you read his story "The Great Divorce".

What comes through loud and clear is that those who are admitted to heaven not only have their own personalities, but they transcend the qualities they had while living on earth.

What also comes through is that those who don't get to heaven don't want to change their ways - the heretical Anglican bishop, a burly thief, the self pitying "poet", and a tyrannical boss who was murdered by one of his employees, while the employee was (ironically) in heaven.
That is awesome. CS Lewis did a good book, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (Narnia). :) A timeless classic which my parents read to me before bed as a 7 or something year old. I'll check out the "Great Divorce" by him. So, it seems that my humor would transcend my current levels. Thankfully, I try to change my ways, though it can be hard to break out of a cycle or distraction for many people, myself included. But, we must all try our best as a society to focus on God more than Netflix and sci-fi, or whatever other people do all day when not working or hanging out with friends.
 
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Sorn

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We are mortal (subject to death) the bible teaches of two deaths ... the first death (earthly death) is temporal because one day ALL will be resurrected.

Those in the first resurrection will enter the kingdom of heaven. We will be given new bodies that are not corruptible and eternal life ... our minds and bodies will be completely devoid of sin. Our current earthly bodies do not survive ... we will be given new bodies.

There are complete records of everyone's lives kept in heaven .... 1st resurrection ... God will restore their records to them (less their sin) ... so a "partial copy" (so to speak) ... this "partial copy" will be in a new body. Flesh and bones.

Luke 24

38“Why are you troubled,” Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

We will be like Him .... sinless and flesh and bones (looking forward to this day!) .... not some disembodied "sprit" of some kind.

So, the first death (cease to exist on planet earth - a temporary state - dormant in the grave) ... second death cease to exist for eternity. In the second resurrection the records of those lives will be restored to them (including their sin) ... they will have resurrected corruptible bodies. It is sin that corrupts the mind and body. They will be raised up (restored to) their original earthly minds and bodies and final judgement (for eternity) will ensue.

Romans 7:18 ESV​

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
What you are saying is that when you die you cease to exist, but God, who has complete information about you can make 'you' again.
The information that God has about you, in His memory, heavenly computer, wherever, is information ABOUT you, it is NOT you.

God can use this information to create a 'you' but it will not be the same you as the one reading this post, it will be a clone or copy (partial or otherwise).
You will not have its thoughts and it will not have your thoughts because it IS a different person entirely.
Keep in mind that if God creates this copy from His information there is nothing to stop Him creating 100 copies of you and have them all running around in Heaven if He so wished, clearly they can not all be you & in fact NONE of them will be the you reading this post.
 
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RileyG

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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?
We stand before the judgment seat of God and are judged for heaven or hell.
 
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Hawkins

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Day folds into day, week into week, and year into year until out tale of years ends and we die. But what does it mean to die?

Do we just stop, cease being, become non-existent? Or is there something that remains - persists despite the dissolution of our integrated physical and mental being? If so, what is it and how does it subsist?

If there's a turnado going to strick Florida, how would you know? It is through the media which you can trust to broadcast from an expert agent serving as an eyewitness. Typically it is an observatory. The turnado was observed/witnessed/predicted, then went through a media to reach you. That's how a fact of the kind is conveyed.

God allows the process to be observed/witnessed by resurrecting the chosen ones, such that their testimony reaches God's official media which is His chosen people Israel. So you can dive into the Jewish concept to have a look, as the best way for a fact of the kind to convey is to develop it into a Jewish concept then for other humans to have a sneak peak on what it is.

That being said, I believe I have some details which others may not have. However, I am not in a position of "a media one should trust" to go further into those details. :cool:
 
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eleos1954

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What you are saying is that when you die you cease to exist, but God, who has complete information about you can make 'you' again.
The information that God has about you, in His memory, heavenly computer, wherever, is information ABOUT you, it is NOT you.

God can use this information to create a 'you' but it will not be the same you as the one reading this post, it will be a clone or copy (partial or otherwise).
You will not have its thoughts and it will not have your thoughts because it IS a different person entirely.
Keep in mind that if God creates this copy from His information there is nothing to stop Him creating 100 copies of you and have them all running around in Heaven if He so wished, clearly they can not all be you & in fact NONE of them will be the you reading this post.
Well .... He created Adam originally (body wise) and then breathed life into His body and Adam became a living being. Each of us are different ... we are a reflection of our earthly life experiences (good and bad) nobody has had the exact same experiences ... that is what makes each of us unique. We are not robots .... we were not created to be robots ... nor will we be robots in heaven ... everything about us will be restored (without sin) and will received new bodies .... our earthly bodies die because of sin .... not because of our individual personality traits outside of that. If we don't retain our personality traits .... then we would be robots .... if our personality traits are not restored then we are robots.

The resurrections .... for what purpose are they if we are not to have memory of our earthly lives? What makes you ... you? Your thinking .... the body is the container that makes that possible.


Revelation 21:4​

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Tears in heaven .... if there is no memory .... no reason for tears.
 
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Sorn

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Well .... He created Adam originally (body wise) and then breathed life into His body and Adam became a living being. Each of us are different ... we are a reflection of our earthly life experiences (good and bad) nobody has had the exact same experiences ... that is what makes each of us unique. We are not robots .... we were not created to be robots ... nor will we be robots in heaven ... everything about us will be restored (without sin) and will received new bodies .... our earthly bodies die because of sin .... not because of our individual personality traits outside of that. If we don't retain our personality traits .... then we would be robots .... if our personality traits are not restored then we are robots.

The resurrections .... for what purpose are they if we are not to have memory of our earthly lives? What makes you ... you? Your thinking .... the body is the container that makes that possible.


Revelation 21:4​

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Tears in heaven .... if there is no memory .... no reason for tears.
Well then, it won't be you in heaven but a copy of you. Your clone gets eternal life, you turn to dust.

Also:
"The resurrections .... for what purpose are they if we are not to have memory of our earthly lives? What makes you ... you? Your thinking .... the body is the container that makes that possible."
but then:
" if there is no memory .... no reason for tears" are you contradicting yourself here?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Well then, it won't be you in heaven but a copy of you. Your clone gets eternal life, you turn to dust.

Also:
"The resurrections .... for what purpose are they if we are not to have memory of our earthly lives? What makes you ... you? Your thinking .... the body is the container that makes that possible."
but then:
" if there is no memory .... no reason for tears" are you contradicting yourself here?
When one gets into the technicalities of the resurrection it is better to be silent. The truth is that we do not know what it will be like or what it all means or how it will all happen. But we do know a few things:
  1. that we shall rise
  2. that we shall be like Christ in his resurrection
  3. that we shall see God
Saint Paul gives information, hints more than details, that lead many to believe that between earthly death and the resurrection human beings are with Christ, but the exact state and nature of their companionship with Christ in that state are not spelled out. Perhaps it is good to be content with the knowns and the hints and leave it at that.
 
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eleos1954

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Well then, it won't be you in heaven but a copy of you. Your clone gets eternal life, you turn to dust.

Also:
"The resurrections .... for what purpose are they if we are not to have memory of our earthly lives? What makes you ... you? Your thinking .... the body is the container that makes that possible."
but then:
" if there is no memory .... no reason for tears" are you contradicting yourself here?
no contradiction ... our memories will be restored into new bodies. Our physical bodies do turn to dust .... we get new bodies and our memories restored to it. A clone is relating to the physical .... not our thinking ... of which is immaterial and unique to each of us.

Example .... one can make a copy of everything on their computer on a brand new device of some kind and then restore that information on a
brand new computer ..... the "bodies" (so to speak} are brand new .... but the information on it is not ... whatever information was saved gets restored to the new "body".
 
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