Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

[Derf]

What differnce does it make when He answers honest prayers?

If God answered Hezekiah's prayer before he was born, Then God gave Hezekiah incorrect information in the first prophecy--that he was going to die of the desease...and He knew it was incorrect. (C and A)

If God answered his prayer after he prayed it, then the future is not settled, and God can't have known He would extend Hezekiah's life from the foundation of the world. (O)

 

[Gary K]

If God answered Hezekiah's prayer before he was born, Then God gave Hezekiah incorrect information in the first prophecy--that he was going to die of the desease...and He knew it was incorrect. (C and A)

If God answered his prayer after he prayed it, then the future is not settled, and God can't have known He would extend Hezekiah's life from the foundation of the world. (O)

So anything to hang on to your belief? You can argue it for the rest of your life and I'll never accept it. Sorry.

I do not understand how you can accuse God of giving anyone false information. That is a blasphemous idea. It's insulting to Him.

 

[Derf]

So anything to hang on to your belief? You can argue it for the rest of your life and I'll never accept it. Sorry.

I do not understand how you can accuse God of giving anyone false information. That is a blasphemous idea. It's insulting to Him.

I'm glad you think that is so appalling. To be clear, I don't believe He gave anyone false information. It is the settled future views that posit such a thing.

If you think God giving Hezekiah false information is blasphemous, it seems you would want to reconsider your objections to open theism.

 

[Gary K]

I'm glad you think that is so appalling. To be clear, I don't believe He gave anyone false information. It is the settled future views that posit such a thing.

If you think God giving Hezekiah false information is blasphemous, it seems you would want to reconsider your objections to open theism.

Nope. I like where I am with my beliefs. In fact, you can continue to try to dissuade me for the rest of my life and you'll never succeed.

 

[Derf]

Nope. I like where I am with my beliefs. In fact, you can continue to try to dissuade me for the rest of my life and you'll never succeed.

Is that because you are sure you have perfect understanding of the scriptures? You must have reached a point very few ever have...or maybe quite a few have, where they are so sure they know it all that they don't need to study scripture anymore. I doubt I'll ever make it to that point, this side of eternity.

 

[Gary K]

Is that because you are sure you have perfect understanding of the scriptures? You must have reached a point very few ever have...or maybe quite a few have, where they are so sure they know it all that they don't need to study scripture anymore. I doubt I'll ever make it to that point, this side of eternity.

No, I haven't reached a point where I think I know it all. But, and this is a big but, I have had a personal relationship with God for a long time so that I know God very well. I have never read scripture to learn theology. I have always read it to learn who He is. That's a much greater difference than you think.

I'll tell you my conversion story and it might help you to understand me and my position. As you know I grew up abused. What you don't know is the extent of the abuse. I was abused mentally, physically, and sexually by family members. My own brother tried to murder me in 1967. God intervened and he didn't succeed. I was too screwed up in the head by that time to tell anyone. In fact I was afraid to. Why? Because of previous abuse. In 1964 my old man was manipulated by that same brother into screaming at me and telling me that I was the cause of everything bad that ever happened to our family so I wasn't about to go through that again. I was afraid to as my old man had told ne if I ever made him look bad again he'd whip me to within an inch of my life and I had no doubt he'd do it.

That kind of abuse went on until I was in my mid twenties even after I'd been converted and rebaptised.

During my years of drug abuse brought on by the abuse I'd spoken to the devil out loud and told him I was his if he'd work out a problem for me. When I'd found out that God loved me through reading Ellen White's books called the Conflict of The Conflict of the Ages series I got rebaptised and became a Christian. The middle book of that series, The Desire of Ages on the life of Christ, is what really convinced me that God loved someone as useless and screwed up as me. After I was rebaptised I was lying in my bed one night and all of a sudden found I was no longer in bed. I was in a big old log hall at one end a looong table and a big fire burning in the stone fireplace at the other end of the table. There were people lined up down both sides of the table wearing black hooded robes facing away from me. At the opposite end of the table was another guy facing the fireplace. He turned around, looked at me, and said you're mine. He repeated that a couple of times and I started floating across the table toward him. I got right up to him and realized who it was. I yelled, no. and the next thing I knew I was lying back in my bed again. I had goosebumps all over me and was shaking I was so scared. I felt an actual physical struggle going on between angels as they were rolling over and over on top of me. I'd feel cold and then warm wings against me. I rolled over onto my stomach and started praying asking God for His help as I was terrified. I don't know how long that lasted but eventually the struggle stopped and I drifted off to sleep.

For months after that on full moon nights I'd get harassed again. I'll tell you about one of those times. I had a dog back then that was my constant companion. He was my one and only buddy. Well I was driving down the road one full moon night and I started feeling goosebumps all over me and my dog. who had been lying on the seat next to me got up and started growling. He was really mad. I started praying asking God for His protection and after few minutes of praying my goosebumps went away and my dog stopped growling and laid back down.

Hopefully this will help you understand why I feel so strongly about defending the character of my God against any perceived attack on His character. I know Him well, personally. I get upset with anyone who attacks Him just like you do if someone attacks the character of your wife. Only I love Him more than you do our wife because I literally owe Him my life, both physically and spiritually. God is very, very good. He is loving beyond our imagination.

That's only one of the miracles God has performed in my life. He's literally saved it multiple times and guardian angel has spoken to me audibly twice. The greatest miracle He's done for me though is spiritually. He's changed my life completely and caused me to like myself and love others. I grew up hating others because of the abuse. It was so bad I can understand why people like Dylan Klebold and his buddies shot up that high school. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Derf]

Hopefully this will help you understand why I feel so strongly about defending the character of my God against any perceived attack on His character.

I'm not trying to downplay any of your testimony! Thanks for sharing it.

But this piece is exactly why I participate in these discussions: because God's character is being attacked or His glory is being given to another.

Calvinism attacks God's character by making Him the author of sin.

Arminianism's attack is subtler, but it makes God subject to some other determining power (like the Fates of Greek mythology).

I don't see that kind of problem with Open Theism, though many accuse it of such, wrongly imho.

But this is why we should talk through our beliefs. If I'm wrong, then I want to know about it. I'm not settled on my theology, but I do see it as the most biblical and most God-honoring.

There are people within the O camp that I disagree with on more issues than Cs or As. My current pastor says he's somewhere between As and Cs, but essentially he's an A. And I love him dearly.

We all, as fellow believers and brothers in Christ, need to love each other dearly...and discuss things clearly and vociferously at times.

 

[Gary K]

I'm not trying to downplay any of your testimony! Thanks for sharing it.

But this piece is exactly why I participate in these discussions: because God's character is being attacked or His glory is being given to another.

Calvinism attacks God's character by making Him the author of sin.

Arminianism's attack is subtler, but it makes God subject to some other determining power (like the Dates of Greek mythology).

I don't see that kind of problem with Open Theism, though many accuse it if such, wrongly imho.

But this is why we should talk through our beliefs. If I'm wrong, then I want to know about it. I'm not settled on my theology, but I do see it as the most biblical and most God-honoring.

There are people within the O camp that I disagree with on more issues than Cs or As. My current pastor says he's somewhere between As and Cs, but essentially he's an A. And I love him dearly.

We all, as fellow believers and brothers in Christ, need to love each other dearly...and discuss things clearly and vociferously at times.

I don't disagree with any of that. Have you experienced anything like I have? It really makes a difference.

Let's continue our discussion. but I will be gone for a few hours today when we go to church and then my wife has to help at potluck today as it is she and her aunt's Sabbath to be in charge of it this week.

 

[Derf]

I don't disagree with any of that. Have you experienced anything like I have? It really makes a difference.

Let's continue our discussion. but I will be gone for a few hours today when we go to church and then my wife has to help at potluck today as it is she and her aunt's Sabbath to be in charge of it this week.

I'm busy most of the day today, too.

 

[Derf]

I don't disagree with any of that.

That's good. That means you don't see either settled view as tenable, which only leaves the unsettled view(s), like Open Theism.

Have you experienced anything like I have? It really makes a difference.

Tell me how it makes a difference in your view of what the Bible says about God. Does it make you dismiss some biblical things about God, or does it help you believe some biblical things more firmly? Do we all need to have an experience for our faith to be on a form footing? Why or why not?

 

[Gary K]

That's good. That means you don't see either settled view as tenable, which only leaves the unsettled view(s), like Open Theism.

Tell me how it makes a difference in your view of what the Bible says about God. Does it make you dismiss some biblical things about God, or does it help you believe some biblical things more firmly? Do we all need to have an experience for our faith to be on a form footing? Why or why not?

Yes. we need experience because true faith comes by knowing God. How do you think Jesus was able to perform so many miracles? It was because He knew His Father so well. Remember, He said I of my own self can do nothing. What my Father tells me to do I do. I also know by personal experience what God is capable of doing.

Let me tell you a story from my past that will help you to understand. I got rebaptised in the mid 70s because God inserted Himself into my life. I had to have that happen as I was so burnt out from trying to destroy my mind with psychedelic drugs, speed, downers. and pot I was incapable of holding down a job. Why destroy my mind? Because by the time I graduated from high school the emotional pain of being hated by my entire family was more than I could bear. During those years of destroying myself I had asked the devil to work out a situation for me and if he did I was his.

To make a long story short I got rebaptised because I learned for the first time in my life in my life that someone loved me. Me, the guy whose entire family loved to hate and bully, was loved by the God of the universe. Their behavior taught me to accept bullying from anyone because I thought I was worthless. I could see no value in myself because my family could see no value in me. So I finally started to see at least some value in myself and the love of God drew me like a magnet. I had to get to know someone who loved this worthless person.

One night after I had been rebaptised I was lying in my bed watching the clouds roll by under a full moon. The next thing I knew I was no longer in bed. I was in this long narrow room with a bunch of robed hooded people facing away from me on either side of a really long table. At the other end of the table there another hooded guy facing away from me looking into a massive river rock fireplace. He turned around and looked me in the eye, crooked his index finger at me, and said, your mine, your mine. I levitated and began floating across the table to him. I got right up to him before I realized who it was. I yelled, no, and suddenly I was lying on my bed again. I was covered with goose bumps. and scared out of my mind. I rolled over onto my stomach and began asking God for His protection and telling Him he needed to help me because I could not help myself.

There was a terrific struggle going on on top of me. I could feel warm and cold wings touching me as those two angels rolled over and over physically fighting over me. I have no idea how long that fight lasted but it eventually it stopped and I drifted off to sleep. The devil didn't give up though. He came back on other full moon nights. On one of them I was driving down the road and suddenly I was covered in goose bumps and my dog who had been lying on the seat beside me got up and began turning around and around growling. He did not like the devil. I began praying once again and after a short while the goose bumps went away and my dog laid back down. His harassment didn't stop there. He began hitting me with depression. I'd be driving down the road and I'd suddenly be so depressed I'd think about parking my car on the railroad tracks so a train would come along and kill me. More than a decade later I'd be working driving from one town to another and suddenly I'd be so depressed I'd have tears rolling down my face. I'd start praying and tell the Lord I couldn't fight this on my own and a few miles later I'd find myself sing hymns and I'd thank Him for His miracle.

There have been so many miracles in my life I'd be sure to forget some if I tried to recall them all. My life has been one of intense spiritual struggle since I was a little kid and it has resulted in me having a trust in God like very few people ever have. So, yes, I'd say experience with God is extremely important in getting to know Him.

Jesus tells us that this is life eternal that they should know you the only true God and Jesus Christ who thou hast sent in John 17:3; Salvation is relational, not theological, because it is based on knowing God.

 

[Derf]

Yes. we need experience because true faith comes by knowing God. How do you think Jesus was able to perform so many miracles? It was because He knew His Father so well. Remember, He said I of my own self can do nothing. What my Father tells me to do I do. I also know by personal experience what God is capable of doing.

Let me tell you a story from my past that will help you to understand. I got rebaptised in the mid 70s because God inserted Himself into my life. I had to have that happen as I was so burnt out from trying to destroy my mind with psychedelic drugs, speed, downers. and pot I was incapable of holding down a job. Why destroy my mind? Because by the time I graduated from high school the emotional pain of being hated by my entire family was more than I could bear. During those years of destroying myself I had asked the devil to work out a situation for me and if he did I was his.

To make a long story short I got rebaptised because I learned for the first time in my life in my life that someone loved me. Me, the guy whose entire family loved to hate and bully, was loved by the God of the universe. Their behavior taught me to accept bullying from anyone because I thought I was worthless. I could see no value in myself because my family could see no value in me. So I finally started to see at least some value in myself and the love of God drew me like a magnet. I had to get to know someone who loved this worthless person.

One night after I had been rebaptised I was lying in my bed watching the clouds roll by under a full moon. The next thing I knew I was no longer in bed. I was in this long narrow room with a bunch of robed hooded people facing away from me on either side of a really long table. At the other end of the table there another hooded guy facing away from me looking into a massive river rock fireplace. He turned around and looked me in the eye, crooked his index finger at me, and said, your mine, your mine. I levitated and began floating across the table to him. I got right up to him before I realized who it was. I yelled, no, and suddenly I was lying on my bed again. I was covered with goose bumps. and scared out of my mind. I rolled over onto my stomach and began asking God for His protection and telling Him he needed to help me because I could not help myself.

There was a terrific struggle going on on top of me. I could feel warm and cold wings touching me as those two angels rolled over and over physically fighting over me. I have no idea how long that fight lasted but it eventually it stopped and I drifted off to sleep. The devil didn't give up though. He came back on other full moon nights. On one of them I was driving down the road and suddenly I was covered in goose bumps and my dog who had been lying on the seat beside me got up and began turning around and around growling. He did not like the devil. I began praying once again and after a short while the goose bumps went away and my dog laid back down. His harassment didn't stop there. He began hitting me with depression. I'd be driving down the road and I'd suddenly be so depressed I'd think about parking my car on the railroad tracks so a train would come along and kill me. More than a decade later I'd be working driving from one town to another and suddenly I'd be so depressed I'd have tears rolling down my face. I'd start praying and tell the Lord I couldn't fight this on my own and a few miles later I'd find myself sing hymns and I'd thank Him for His miracle.

There have been so many miracles in my life I'd be sure to forget some if I tried to recall them all. My life has been one of intense spiritual struggle since I was a little kid and it has resulted in me having a trust in God like very few people ever have. So, yes, I'd say experience with God is extremely important in getting to know Him.

Jesus tells us that this is life eternal that they should know you the only true God and Jesus Christ who thou hast sent in John 17:3; Salvation is relational, not theological, because it is based on knowing God.

But none of that tells you information about the subject of this thread. We don't decide our theology from our experiences.

Speaking of this thread, the topic is regarding a definition of open theism, not a defense, though a defense was necessary, imo.

This is from the OP:

But what about the one above that admits "God allows humans to make free choices that affect the future"? I suspect almost everyone here would agree with the idea that choices do affect the future -

I think you and I, Gary, agree with BobRyan on that part.

yet God most certainly knows exactly what will happen without any doubt, confusion etc on His part.

And we reached an agreement that this is not a true statement, "God knows everything about the future", because that leads to one of two types of determinism (which I've labelled "Calvinism" and "Arminianism"), neither of which allows for humans to actually make their own choices.

In other words, God's knowing everything we will do before we exist means all is determined without our participation in the determining, which means we don't make our own choices

In any case when I hear that term used I think of the negative side of it and reject it. However is it possible some are using it in a way that does not include that sort of negative constraint?

Here's why Open Theism has a hard time...everyone considers God to have some innate knowledge of the future, but such is not supported by the bible. The bible tells us that God knows us because He observes us in various ways, not because He just innately knows us. The former is about relationship, which you, Gary, stress as so very important. The latter is purely about a preconception of God. Both of these are experienced. We "experience" our preconceptions every time we use them to override scripture.

But experiences aren't reliable for deciphering what God is like--they might help in some areas, but not in knowing how much of the future God might know or not know. We must resort to His revealed word. And if there are ANY passages, even just one, where the future changed, then we have our answer.

There is at least one, and it is clear that the future changed. It is with Hezekiah and his illness. God sends Isaiah to him twice in the same day with two opposing messages:
1. That Hez will die of his illness, and
2. That Hez will survive his illness and live an extra 15 years.

Both of these messages are about the future for Hez. Both are from God. Both cannot be true if the future of Hez was settled before he existed.

Therefore, if God did not lie to Hez in the first message about his future, then the future changed between the first and the second message.

 

[BobRyan]

In other words, God's knowing everything we will do before we exist means all is determined without our participation in the determining, which means we don't make our own choices

That is only true if God (like a human) cannot actually see the future - but rather can only "dictate the future" , by setting up bias, pre-programming, rules such that each actor is merely carrying out the prewritten instruction in code that God embedded into their brain. Which is exactly how a human could know everything about the future - since a human can't actually see it.

None of us would insist on that level of "interference" in events by one who simply watched a movie that someone else made... since humans can easily "watch a movie" , not dictate anything about the movie that they watched, and yet know everything that will happen next in the movie - such that they are 100% accurate. No one would say that those who made the movie "had no free will since the one who has seen the movie now knows every details about what will happen in it". We all get that part.

The hard part is when finite man tries to fully comprehend how it is that infinite God knows the future, fully sees it and yet is not responsible for every wrong action in it. We can only imagine God "being limited as a human". We know that a limited human would only know the future with certainty in one way - and that is by manipulating, "dictating" that future.

 

[Gary K]

But none of that tells you information about the subject of this thread. We don't decide our theology from our experiences.

Speaking of this thread, the topic is regarding a definition of open theism, not a defense, though a defense was necessary, imo.

This is from the OP:

I think you and I, Gary, agree with BobRyan on that part.


And we reached an agreement that this is not a true statement, "God knows everything about the future", because that leads to one of two types of determinism (which I've labelled "Calvinism" and "Arminianism"), neither of which allows for humans to actually make their own choices.

In other words, God's knowing everything we will do before we exist means all is determined without our participation in the determining, which means we don't make our own choices


Here's why Open Theism has a hard time...everyone considers God to have some innate knowledge of the future, but such is not supported by the bible. The bible tells us that God knows us because He observes us in various ways, not because He just innately knows us. The former is about relationship, which you, Gary, stress as so very important. The latter is purely about a preconception of God. Both of these are experienced. We "experience" our preconceptions every time we use them to override scripture.

But experiences aren't reliable for deciphering what God is like--they might help in some areas, but not in knowing how much of the future God might know or not know. We must resort to His revealed word. And if there are ANY passages, even just one, where the future changed, then we have our answer.

There is at least one, and it is clear that the future changed. It is with Hezekiah and his illness. God sends Isaiah to him twice in the same day with two opposing messages:
1. That Hez will die of his illness, and
2. That Hez will survive his illness and live an extra 15 years.

Both of these messages are about the future for Hez. Both are from God. Both cannot be true if the future of Hez was settled before he existed.

Therefore, if God did not lie to Hez in the first message about his future, then the future changed between the first and the second message.

In response to what I bolded in your post.

My experience has everything to do with my beliefs. Because I know and trust God implicitly for what He's done for me I know He's not unjust. Therefore He has always given His creation full free will even though He knows the future. He's God. He's not a human with our limited understanding and power. Therefore He is capable of doing what we cannot imagine. Even heaven is beyond our imagination.

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If we can't even imagine what heaven will be like how can we imagine God's power and ability?

 

[Derf]

That is only true if God (like a human) cannot actually see the future - but rather can only "dictate the future" , by setting up bias, pre-programming, rules such that each actor is merely carrying out the prewritten instruction in code that God embedded into their brain. Which is exactly how a human could know everything about the future - since a human can't actually see it.

None of us would insist on that level of "interference" in events by one who simply watched a movie that someone else made... since humans can easily "watch a movie" , not dictate anything about the movie that they watched, and yet know everything that will happen next in the movie - such that they are 100% accurate. No one would say that those who made the movie "had no free will since the one who has seen the movie now knows every details about what will happen in it". We all get that part.

I really don't get the movie analogy the way you use it here. The movie we view is merely a digital or film record of something that happened in the past. We know exactly what will happen because it us something that happened in the past. God's memory is not in question...it's His knowledge of things that haven't happened that we are discussing. there's no free will in the past. You can't want something different yesterday than you already wanted yesterday. (Try it!) You can only want something different right now (maybe regret what you wanted and did yesterday).

And if we were in a movie as actors, we had very little free will in how the movie turned out, because every time you do something you want, if it wasn't what the director wanted, then he makes you do it again. That's the epitome of the opposite of free will.

The hard part is when finite man tries to fully comprehend how it is that infinite God knows the future, fully sees it and yet is not responsible for every wrong action in it. We can only imagine God "being limited as a human".

Can we imagine, however, God being limited in ways He tells us He is limited?

We know that a limited human would only know the future with certainty in one way - and that is by manipulating, "dictating" that future.

Do we? We know that the sun will rise because the earth revolves. Humans don't control either the sun or the earth.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
That is only true if God (like a human) cannot actually see the future - but rather can only "dictate the future" , by setting up bias, pre-programming, rules such that each actor is merely carrying out the prewritten instruction in code that God embedded into their brain. Which is exactly how a human could know everything about the future - since a human can't actually see it.

None of us would insist on that level of "interference" in events by one who simply watched a movie that someone else made... since humans can easily "watch a movie" , not dictate anything about the movie that they watched, and yet know everything that will happen next in the movie - such that they are 100% accurate. No one would say that those who made the movie "had no free will since the one who has seen the movie now knows every details about what will happen in it". We all get that part.

I really don't get the movie analogy the way you use it here. The movie we view is merely a digital or film record of something that happened in the past

For your guest who is about to watch the movie with you for the first time - every event in the movie is about to be seen for the first time - in his present-future.

But you are able to predict everything that he/she is about to see. NOT because you have manipulated the writers or directors but because "you have seen it" already.

I am using that as "an illustration" -- because obviously there is no such thing as a human actually seeing the future due to their infinite knowledge.

. We know exactly what will happen because it us something that happened in the past

indeed - and human limitations are such that - this is the only kind of thing we are able to "see".

God is not so limited as that.

 

[Derf]

In response to what I bolded in your post.

My experience has everything to do with my beliefs. Because I know and trust God implicitly for what He's done for me I know He's not unjust.

There are other ways to find out that God is just. Are those other ways not reliable?

Therefore He has always given His creation full free will even though He knows the future.

Which I say is impossible for God, and God's word says He didn't do. Nothing in your story contradicts my statements.

He's God. He's not a human with our limited understanding and power. Therefore He is capable of doing what we cannot imagine. Even heaven is beyond our imagination.

Then why do you imagine that He can give freewill and still know our future? Your using your lack of knowledge about God to "prove" knowledge about God. This is one reason why we should use the Bible, God's revelation to us about Him and His plans for us, to determine what God is like, rather than anecdotes of our experiences.

If we can't even imagine what heaven will be like how can we imagine God's power and ability?

This is a non-sequitor. I could also say, "I can't imagine what toilets are like on Jupiter, therefore how can I imagine what a squid does when he sleeps," and it has the same logical power.

 

[Derf]

BobRyan said:
That is only true if God (like a human) cannot actually see the future - but rather can only "dictate the future" , by setting up bias, pre-programming, rules such that each actor is merely carrying out the prewritten instruction in code that God embedded into their brain. Which is exactly how a human could know everything about the future - since a human can't actually see it.

None of us would insist on that level of "interference" in events by one who simply watched a movie that someone else made... since humans can easily "watch a movie" , not dictate anything about the movie that they watched, and yet know everything that will happen next in the movie - such that they are 100% accurate. No one would say that those who made the movie "had no free will since the one who has seen the movie now knows every details about what will happen in it". We all get that part.

For your guest who is about to watch the movie with you for the first time - every event in the movie is about to be seen for the first time - in his present-future.

But you are able to predict everything that he/she is about to see. NOT because you have manipulated the writers or directors but because "you have seen it" already.

The problem with your illustration is that it introduces a new kind of participant. God (the movie writer/director/editor/publisher/producer) is present. We are present (watching the movie). But who are the actors? What part do they play in the real life scenario? They can't be real people, because then they would be watching the movie WITH us. They can't be God. Who else exists in our world that fits that description?

What you've done is illustrated, without realizing it, what I tried to describe as "Arminianism" several posts back. If you haven't been reading along, you might want to, but I'll try to recap here, using your illustration.

If God is not the author of sin, then He can't be the movie writer/director/editor/publisher/producer. Since we commit sin, we are the actors in the movie. That only leaves God as the watcher of the movie. You can see that there is a more powerful person than God in this scenario. God can see the movie (the future), but He can't change it. You've actually removed God's free will, or at least His ability to do anything about our (the actors') problem of sin.

You should also see that the actors (us) can't decide what they will do in the movie, the writer/director/editor/publisher/producer decides everything about the movie.

I am using that as "an illustration" -- because obviously there is no such thing as a human actually seeing the future due to their infinite knowledge.

I'll assume you mean "finite knowledge".

indeed - and human limitations are such that - this is the only kind of thing we are able to "see".

No, you stated yourself that we ALSO have the ability to know something about the future because we decide to cause an event.

God is not so limited as that.

So now we have two ways to know the future that I think we can both agree on:
1. (from you) God can know the parts of the future that He causes (this is the only one in Calvinism, but Arminianism and Open Theism should agree with it)
2. (from me) God can know parts of the future because He is smart

There's a third way to know the future that you believe and I reject:
3. God can know the future because He can see it before it happens, but He doesn't cause it.

That third type is unique to Arminianism (and all similar settled-view free-will-ers). Since God knows the future from the foundation of the world, and we didn't exist back then, all of our actions (including our thoughts, words, and deeds) were determined already before we existed--the movie script was determined, including what all the actors would do to the extant that the movie was already viewable (that's how God sees the future, right?). But God is only the viewer, and the determiner of our thoughts, words, and deeds is somebody else, but not us, since we didn't exist.

 

[Gary K]

There are other ways to find out that God is just. Are those other ways not reliable?

Which I say is impossible for God, and God's word says He didn't do. Nothing in your story contradicts my statements.

Then why do you imagine that He can give freewill and still know our future? Your using your lack of knowledge about God to "prove" knowledge about God. This is one reason why we should use the Bible, God's revelation to us about Him and His plans for us, to determine what God is like, rather than anecdotes of our experiences.

This is a non-sequitor. I could also say, "I can't imagine what toilets are like on Jupiter, therefore how can I imagine what a squid does when he sleeps," and it has the same logical power.

I guess I should tell you what happened on Sabbath as that had a large influence on my excitement.

My step daughter has been has been married to a very abusive guy since she was 17. I told my wife then not to allow her to get married but he's a good con artist and she bought his act and allowed her daughter to marry him. During the ensuing years he has turned her daughter against her and caused her to hate me too. We've had them on our prayer list for quite a while although I'm ashamed to admit I haven't been praying for her anywhere nearly as long as my wife has. He has destroyed my stepdaughter's life as well as the lives of all six of their kids. It was so bad that his own do threatened to shoot him when the kid was only 12. He's now 28.

As you know God has been working miracles in my life lately and my faith has really grown as a result of that. Well I've been wanting some kind of confrontation for a long time but as I'm only a step father I have honored my wife's wishes. Sabbath was my first opportunity in a long time to do this and I kept asking God if this was the time and the desire kept on growing inside me. I asked God to remove it if this was just me and the desire grew even greater. So I told my wife I was going with her as she, her two kids, and her grand kids were burying the ashes of her mother on Sabbath. She passed away this last winter from alzheimers and this was the first time they had the opportunity to bury them as she had asked that her body be donated to science and the institution cremates the body afterwards and then ships the ashes back. So I told my wife I was going to go with her when she went and ate dinner with all her family. She got mad and told me in no uncertain terms that I was not going.

I need to say here the reason why. My step daughter was sexually abused by her father and his wife when she was 12 or 13 when they went to visit him that summer on court ordered visitation. His wife was involved in it too as I've just found out lately that every time the kids went up there she would start grilling my stepdaughter asking if I was messing with her. That happened for several years according to my step son. My stepdaughter was very protective of her little brother and their dad and step mom had taken them to see horror movies that summer. It so scared my step son that he would wake up crying during the middle of the night. Apparently my stepdaughter put up with her dad messing with her to keep him from hurting her brother as he would have attacked his dad if he had known what was going on.

My stepdaughter's husband has used this situation to turn her against both of us as well as all their kids as he is just that cruel. So that is the situation I was walking into. You can see why my wife got mad when I insisted I was going. Mu wife didn't believe we would even be allowed in the house if I went. I just kept telling her I was praying and that God had jujst kept on impressing me that this was the time and He was going to work miracles. She couldn't believe it.

We got there and walked in and her grandson's gay wife let us in and shook hands with me when he opened the door. God worked things out so that my stepdasughter and I had a nice little chat and I had her chuckling by gently teasing her about all her kids and grand kids. God also worked things out with the granddaughter who hated me the worst to the point she asked my wife if I was dying because of all the things for which I had asked forgiveness as I was really messed up when I got married because of all the abuse I'd been through. I had fallen back into drug use and my stepson and stepdaughter knew about it as my stepson had found some pot in the car I had left in the car when I came home because I was so stoned.

My stepdaughter and my wife got along after I had talked to her too. It was a big win for God as my stepdaughter has walked a long ways away from Him because of the abuse. So I was really fired up for God when I answered your post. God is sooo good and so loving it's beyond our imagination what He can do when we place our trust in Him and Him alone and realize we're smaller and more insignificant than ants compared to Him and what He can do in and through us if we will just surrender ourselves fully to Him. We are so full of ourselves that we trust in ourselves far more than we trust Him as I've been coming to realize over the past few months. It's a consequence of living in a world of sin as sin is selfishness and placing ourselves in front of God in our list of priorities. We do it without even realizing it because all we have ever known is sin all our lives. It surrounds us and the devil's propaganda bombards us daily with how great we humans are.

 

[Derf]

I guess I should tell you what happened on Sabbath as that had a large influence on my excitement.

My step daughter has been has been married to a very abusive guy since she was 17. I told my wife then not to allow her to get married but he's a good con artist and she bought his act and allowed her daughter to marry him. During the ensuing years he has turned her daughter against her and caused her to hate me too. We've had them on our prayer list for quite a while although I'm ashamed to admit I haven't been praying for her anywhere nearly as long as my wife has. He has destroyed my stepdaughter's life as well as the lives of all six of their kids. It was so bad that his own do threatened to shoot him when the kid was only 12. He's now 28.

As you know God has been working miracles in my life lately and my faith has really grown as a result of that. Well I've been wanting some kind of confrontation for a long time but as I'm only a step father I have honored my wife's wishes. Sabbath was my first opportunity in a long time to do this and I kept asking God if this was the time and the desire kept on growing inside me. I asked God to remove it if this was just me and the desire grew even greater. So I told my wife I was going with her as she, her two kids, and her grand kids were burying the ashes of her mother on Sabbath. She passed away this last winter from alzheimers and this was the first time they had the opportunity to bury them as she had asked that her body be donated to science and the institution cremates the body afterwards and then ships the ashes back. So I told my wife I was going to go with her when she went and ate dinner with all her family. She got mad and told me in no uncertain terms that I was not going.

I need to say here the reason why. My step daughter was sexually abused by her father and his wife when she was 12 or 13 when they went to visit him that summer on court ordered visitation. His wife was involved in it too as I've just found out lately that every time the kids went up there she would start grilling my stepdaughter asking if I was messing with her. That happened for several years according to my step son. My stepdaughter was very protective of her little brother and their dad and step mom had taken them to see horror movies that summer. It so scared my step son that he would wake up crying during the middle of the night. Apparently my stepdaughter put up with her dad messing with her to keep him from hurting her brother as he would have attacked his dad if he had known what was going on.

My stepdaughter's husband has used this situation to turn her against both of us as well as all their kids as he is just that cruel. So that is the situation I was walking into. You can see why my wife got mad when I insisted I was going. Mu wife didn't believe we would even be allowed in the house if I went. I just kept telling her I was praying and that God had jujst kept on impressing me that this was the time and He was going to work miracles. She couldn't believe it.

We got there and walked in and her grandson's gay wife let us in and shook hands with me when he opened the door. God worked things out so that my stepdasughter and I had a nice little chat and I had her chuckling by gently teasing her about all her kids and grand kids. God also worked things out with the granddaughter who hated me the worst to the point she asked my wife if I was dying because of all the things for which I had asked forgiveness as I was really messed up when I got married because of all the abuse I'd been through. I had fallen back into drug use and my stepson and stepdaughter knew about it as my stepson had found some pot in the car I had left in the car when I came home because I was so stoned.

My stepdaughter and my wife got along after I had talked to her too. It was a big win for God as my stepdaughter has walked a long ways away from Him because of the abuse. So I was really fired up for God when I answered your post. God is sooo good and so loving it's beyond our imagination what He can do when we place our trust in Him and Him alone and realize we're smaller and more insignificant than ants compared to Him and what He can do in and through us if we will just surrender ourselves fully to Him. We are so full of ourselves that we trust in ourselves far more than we trust Him as I've been coming to realize over the past few months. It's a consequence of living in a world of sin as sin is selfishness and placing ourselves in front of God in our list of priorities. We do it without even realizing it because all we have ever known is sin all our lives. It surrounds us and the devil's propaganda bombards us daily with how great we humans are.

Praise God for working mightily in your situation!

Can you explain to me why that has anything to do with the topic?