Opinions on the Corrective Baptism issue?

[ArmyMatt]

We know that bishops are not infallible but a lot of people forget monks aren't infallible either.

correct, that’s why we look to the Church’s history to see who is off. and we give everyone the benefit of the doubt until the Church reveals that we shouldn’t.

 

[E.C.]

First and foremost: do what your bishop says. With that, do NOT criticize what other people do when they are following the directions of their bishop who may not happen to be your bishop (looking at all the ROCORites that complain about how non-ROCOR bishops do things).


Secondly, there was an article shared on the OrthodoxChristianity subreddit which went very in depth into the subject (I can share it if I find it again). Reception of Roman Catholics via chrismation has by and large been the norm for centuries. ROCOR's insistence on everyone being baptized, regardless of background, is a modernist innovation from the 1960s or so as part of their reaction to the ecumenical movement. The canons of various councils did describe how to receive repentant heretics back into the Church and in many cases it was either 1) Confession or 2) chrismation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The canons of various councils did describe how to receive repentant heretics back into the Church and in many cases it was either 1) Confession or 2) chrismation.

and reverting, and single anointing.

 

[Not David]

and reverting, and single anointing.

I saw someone saying that Elder Ephraim of AZ and Elder Aimilianos could tell by looking at a person whether they were received by baptism or only by chrismation. Those received by chrismation they instructed to be baptized. I know Elder Ephraim is an important figure in Orthodox monasticism so what do you think about his view?

 

[gzt]

If I recall correctly, Archbishop Alexander of the Bulgarian Diocese of the OCA (and also, I guess, the much less important Diocese of the South) was under Elder Aimilianos. He seems fine with chrismation. I trust that this great hierarch, very familiar with not only the teaching of the Elder but also the Elder himself, has more wisdom in discerning what to make of this private teaching than any of us. Eis polla eti.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I saw someone saying that Elder Ephraim of AZ and Elder Aimilianos could tell by looking at a person whether they were received by baptism or only by chrismation. Those received by chrismation they instructed to be baptized. I know Elder Ephraim is an important figure in Orthodox monasticism so what do you think about his view?

not always, I know folks who were chrismated who communed at his monasteries.

 

[ArmyMatt]

He seems fine with chrismation.

he is, I serve one of his parishes. the DOS is pretty clear on how folks are received. when I get the occasional gripe, I remind folks that this is His Eminence’s parish, and he determines (and will answer for) how folks are received.

 

[Dewi Sant]

some on Athos I heard, but not too many.

wish I read this a decade ago. It was a major stumbling block for my traveling there. (having been received via chrismation alone)

I have been told that a 'certificate' is useful, but as I have moved around so much over the past couple of decades, I have no real idea where mine may be. Do you think the archdiocese may have records of baptisms and chrismations?

Reception via chrismation is a bit of a mercy to me. As a teenager and young adult, I was extremely reluctant to show any flesh. I only started to wear short sleeves outside of mandatory sports classes, in my mid-twenties, and short trousers not long after. To strip down to underwear in the presence of a church would be quite a challenge, even now.

 

[Light of the East]

The sad thing is when certain well-known figures in Orthodoxy make converts feel as if they are second-class Orthodox (or worse, not even in Christ) if they have been baptized in a heterodox church and then just chrismated. They make what sound like air-tight arguments for "corrective baptism" and yet do not mention the fact that we obey the Church and our bishops. This is the thing I am finding more and more important in my life - that it is the Church and neither my feelings nor the arguments of others, that determines my course of action as an Orthodox believer.

The Church has spoken - I rest my case.

 

[Light of the East]

wish I read this a decade ago. It was a major stumbling block for my traveling there. (having been received via chrismation alone)

I have been told that a 'certificate' is useful, but as I have moved around so much over the past couple of decades, I have no real idea where mine may be. Do you think the archdiocese may have records of baptisms and chrismations?

Reception via chrismation is a bit of a mercy to me. As a teenager and young adult, I was extremely reluctant to show any flesh. I only started to wear short sleeves outside of mandatory sports classes, in my mid-twenties, and short trousers not long after. To strip down to underwear in the presence of a church would be quite a challenge, even now.

Huh????????

I"ve seen a couple of baptisms of converts since my own chrismation last year and NONE of them did such a thing. Bathing suits.

WHO told you that underwear was mandatory (Sorry, but I'm kinda laughing at that)

 

[gzt]

wish I read this a decade ago. It was a major stumbling block for my traveling there. (having been received via chrismation alone)

I have been told that a 'certificate' is useful, but as I have moved around so much over the past couple of decades, I have no real idea where mine may be. Do you think the archdiocese may have records of baptisms and chrismations?

In general yes records are kept or are supposed to be kept.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Huh????????

I"ve seen a couple of baptisms of converts since my own chrismation last year and NONE of them did such a thing. Bathing suits.

WHO told you that underwear was mandatory (Sorry, but I'm kinda laughing at that)

I like to think I'm better now, but I was never comfortable even being in swim shorts.
Now, when you say 'bathing suit'...

 

[Dewi Sant]

come to think of it, when I was baptised, it was in a traditional christening gown. That thing is massive. Yards of white silk
yes, I know it is tradition for baptism to be in the nude, but it's cold up north

 

[rusmeister]

Definitely, historically a ton of heresies and schisms are born in monasteries and the bishops have had to rein them in. There's a definite push and pull here.

Gzt, in general, I might really be interested in things you have to say, but since your avatar is what it is, and is at least an indirect challenge to what everyone else here has agreed to*, I’m not interested. Everything that you say that may be good and true has the message of your avatar pulling attention away from your words. And that’s by your choice. If you know that a flag bothers your brethren, and is NOT the Gospel message, however true its message might seem to you, why do you fly it?

The spirit of the law matters as much as the letter of it. And I don’t think rebellion is at the heart of the spirit of our Faith.

If you ever reach a spiritual place where you can hear me, I’ll be ready to listen to you and shake your hand.

* Topics Requiring Special Consideration

 

[Justin-H.S.]

What is Baptism, and why is it important?

 

[truefiction1]

Definitely, historically a ton of heresies and schisms are born in monasteries and the bishops have had to rein them in. There's a definite push and pull here.

Then again, it could be that the tension between the monastic life and the active life (the push and pull) serves to temper both in accordance with the will of God.

 

[gzt]

Then again, it could be that the tension between the monastic life and the active life (the push and pull) serves to temper both in accordance with the will of God.

Certainly, a push and pull means it goes both directions. Sometimes we in the world need a breath of desert air, sometimes the monks need to get their heads out of their bellybuttons, but most often we work together and curb the excesses on the Royal Path.

 

[E.C.]

I saw someone saying that Elder Ephraim of AZ and Elder Aimilianos could tell by looking at a person whether they were received by baptism or only by chrismation. Those received by chrismation they instructed to be baptized. I know Elder Ephraim is an important figure in Orthodox monasticism so what do you think about his view?

Elder Ephraim is respected, yes, but not by all. I get rather cynical on the language issue with his monasteries. The canons say to use the local language of the people and the local language of the people in the United States is NOT Koine Greek; it is English. In some areas it is Spanish, French or a Native American language. I find this dubious at best.

The sad thing is when certain well-known figures in Orthodoxy make converts feel as if they are second-class Orthodox (or worse, not even in Christ) if they have been baptized in a heterodox church and then just chrismated. They make what sound like air-tight arguments for "corrective baptism" and yet do not mention the fact that we obey the Church and our bishops. This is the thing I am finding more and more important in my life - that it is the Church and neither my feelings nor the arguments of others, that determines my course of action as an Orthodox believer.

The Church has spoken - I rest my case.

And this is why I have zero respect for Fr Peter Heers other than his canonically limbo status and crypto-Calvinism. Yes, these "well known" figures are unknowingly setting the stage for further problems down the road.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And this is why I have zero respect for "Fr" Peter Heers other than his canonically limbo status and crypto-Calvinism.

you might not respect the man, his status, or his theology, but until he actually schisms or is deposed, it’s not “Fr.” if St Cyril can address Nestorius with courtesy even when calling him out on his errors, we should be able to do the same today.

 

[E.C.]

you might not respect the man, his status, or his theology, but until he actually schisms or is deposed, it’s not “Fr.” if St Cyril can address Nestorius with courtesy even when calling him out on his errors, we should be able to do the same today.

Fair point Fr, I've edited as necessary.