Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

[Daniel Marsh]

Richard Rice at LLU - promotes something he calls "Open Theism".

I don't know if Rice uses this definition or not

Open theism is a belief that God does not control everything in the universe, but allows humans to make free choices that affect the future123. God is open to what creatures do and responds to them with love123. The future is open in that there is more than one possible outcome23. Open theism emphasizes God's love and responsiveness over God's sovereignty and foreknowledge.​

"Some" define the term to mean "God does not actually know the future" or that "God knows possible futures but does not know which one will actually play out." -- and Idea which I am sure most people here would reject (as do I).

But what about the one above that admits "God allows humans to make free choices that affect the future"? I suspect almost everyone here would agree with the idea that choices do affect the future - yet God most certainly knows exactly what will happen without any doubt, confusion etc on His part.

In any case when I hear that term used I think of the negative side of it and reject it. However is it possible some are using it in a way that does not include that sort of negative constraint?

A logical refutation of open theism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.

carm.org

What Should Our Conclusion Be about Open Theism? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: What Should Our Conclusion Be about Open Theism?

www.blueletterbible.org

A Critique of Open Theism

www.evidenceunseen.com

https://scholasticlutheran.medium.com/the-errors-of-open-theism-c6df339925f5

What Does the Bible Really Say About Open Theism? - Christian Publishing House Blog

Examine scripture’s stance on open theism and God’s foreknowledge. Discover biblical truth and its implications for free will. Read now for clarity and insight.

christianpublishinghouse.co

 

[Gary K]

A logical refutation of open theism | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.

carm.org

What Should Our Conclusion Be about Open Theism? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: What Should Our Conclusion Be about Open Theism?

www.blueletterbible.org

A Critique of Open Theism

www.evidenceunseen.com

https://scholasticlutheran.medium.com/the-errors-of-open-theism-c6df339925f5

What Does the Bible Really Say About Open Theism? - Christian Publishing House Blog

Examine scripture’s stance on open theism and God’s foreknowledge. Discover biblical truth and its implications for free will. Read now for clarity and insight.

christianpublishinghouse.co

As you probably know by now, I completely reject open theis as it shows God in a negative light. God jas already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that He has given us all free will even at trhe cost of sin entering His perfect universe. Man cannot guarantee any belief he creates is true therefore I reject everything to do with open theism. I don't see any point in accepting a doctrine created solely by people as sinful as I am when Jesus guaranteed us the gift of the HS who would lead us into all truth.

 

[BobRyan]

from - What Does the Bible Really Say About Open Theism? - Christian Publishing House Blog

"In short, open theism says that since God and humans are free, God’s knowledge is dynamic and God’s providence flexible. While several versions of traditional theism picture God’s knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism sees it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward. Thus, the future as well as God’s knowledge of it is open (hence “open” theism). Other versions of classical theism hold that God fully determines the future, entailing that there is no free choice (the future is closed). Yet other versions of classical theism hold that even though there is freedom of choice, God’s omniscience necessitates God foreknowing what free choices are made (God’s foreknowledge is closed)."​

That third one is what the SDA denomination teaches. God knows all events with certainty - yet free will is also available since God does not reveal what free will choices are made in the future to determine a given future.

So then
- God does not tell Adam and Eve they will choose to fall
- Adam is not told that Cain will kill Able.
- John the baptizer is not told that the Jews will reject Christ as the Messiah

 

[Derf]

from - What Does the Bible Really Say About Open Theism? - Christian Publishing House Blog

"In short, open theism says that since God and humans are free, God’s knowledge is dynamic and God’s providence flexible. While several versions of traditional theism picture God’s knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism sees it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward. Thus, the future as well as God’s knowledge of it is open (hence “open” theism). Other versions of classical theism hold that God fully determines the future, entailing that there is no free choice (the future is closed). Yet other versions of classical theism hold that even though there is freedom of choice, God’s omniscience necessitates God foreknowing what free choices are made (God’s foreknowledge is closed)."​

That third one is what the SDA denomination teaches. God knows all events with certainty - yet free will is also available since God does not reveal what free will choices are made in the future to determine a given future.

So then
- God does not tell Adam and Eve they will choose to fall
- Adam is not told that Cain will kill Able.
- John the baptizer is not told that the Jews will reject Christ as the Messiah

Whether He tells them or not, If the outcome is already determined before they have a say in it, then they are forced to choose only the determined way. It's not their free will if their choices are made before they exist--it's somebody else's. Then when applied to sin for which they will be punished, the punishment is misdirected.

 

[BobRyan]

Whether He tells them or not, If the outcome is already determined before they have a say in it, then they are forced to choose only the determined way.

If you don't know what path you will choose until you choose it -- you are not affected in the least by God already knowing what you will do.

If I do something and someone else says "oh, yeah - I knew you would do that" -- that person did not just "delete my free will".

If I watch a movie then you come in the room and I tell you what is going to happen next at each point in the movie... I have not deleted the free will of the producer of that movie.

 

[Derf]

If you don't know what path you will choose until you choose it -- you are not affected in the least by God already knowing what you will do.

I don't see how you can say that. If God knows what you will do, before you are in existence, then your whole life is predetermined by something that isn't you. Therefore those choices you say are unaffected can only go one way. How are they choices?

If I do something and someone else says "oh, yeah - I knew you would do that" -- that person did not just "delete my free will".

Usually that means the person "thought" you would do that thing, or predicted it in his mind. But that prediction is based on your character and the history that person has with you, not on an actual predetermination the person could see before you were born. Are you comparing God's knowledge to that?

If I watch a movie then you come in the room and I tell you what is going to happen next at each point in the movie... I have not deleted the free will of the producer of that movie.

We're not talking about the free will of the producer, but one of the characters in the movie. If you tell me what's going to happen in the movie because you've seen it already, then can any of those characters in the movie be said to have free will?

The producer in your movie is in the place of God, right? He decided everything that will happen in the movie prior to the fact, and forces the actors to comply. Is this how you see God? It seems like Calvinism to me. Once He has decided what the movie will look like, does He have the ability to change His mind? If not, then isnt Gid also just playing a part, since He is also a character in His own movie? Aren't all of His actions completely predetermined? This makes God the author of sin, since all the actor's are just doing exactly what He wants them to. And it's a triple-x rated movie.

 

[Gary K]

I don't see how you can say that. If God knows what you will do, before you are in existence, then your whole life is predetermined by something that isn't you. Therefore those choices you say are unaffected can only go one way. How are they choices?

Usually that means the person "thought" you would do that thing, or predicted it in his mind. But that prediction is based on your character and the history that person has with you, not on an actual predetermination the person could see before you were born. Are you comparing God's knowledge to that?

We're not talking about the free will of the producer, but one of the characters in the movie. If you tell me what's going to happen in the movie because you've seen it already, then can any of those characters in the movie be said to have free will?

The producer in your movie is in the place of God, right? He decided everything that will happen in the movie prior to the fact, and forces the actors to comply. Is this how you see God? It seems like Calvinism to me. Once He has decided what the movie will look like, does He have the ability to change His mind? If not, then isnt Gid also just playing a part, since He is also a character in His own movie? Aren't all of His actions completely predetermined? This makes God the author of sin, since all the actor's are just doing exactly what He wants them to. And it's a triple-x rated movie.

I'm not Bob and he can answer very well for himself, but you have not even addressed my comments on God allowing sin to enter His perfect universe. The devil and his angels sinned while in heaven. The Bible calls it the "mystery of iniquity". What's your explanation for that? That God created His own enemies and brought sin, death and destruction into His perfect and peaceful universe? That's pure blasphemy. It's like the Calvinist belief that God creates people just to destroy them and that is "justice" because God can do whatever He wants. I've seen you argue against that belief, but you hold a belief that charges God with the very same behavior.

 

[Derf]

I'm not Bob and he can answer very well for himself, but you have not even addressed my comments on God allowing sin to enter His perfect universe. The devil and his angels sinned while in heaven. The Bible calls it the "mystery of iniquity". What's your explanation for that? That God created His own enemies and brought sin, death and destruction into His perfect and peaceful universe? That's pure blasphemy. It's like the Calvinist belief that God creates people just to destroy them and that is "justice" because God can do whatever He wants. I've seen you argue against that belief, but you hold a belief that charges God with the very same behavior.

I really have no idea how to respond to that. What about the idea that God doesn't know all aspects of the future would make one think that God created anyone just to be destroyed?

 

[Gary K]

I really have no idea how to respond to that. What about the idea that God doesn't know all aspects of the future would make one think that God created anyone just to be destroyed?

Because open theism does not accept that God has already proven to the universe that He does not interfere with our being free moral agents. Why would He as He created us to be that way? I find that to be a direct attack on God's character.

 

[Derf]

Because open theism does not accept that God has already proven to the universe that He does not interfere with our being free moral agents.

So you're saying that because angels sinned in heaven, then God can know our future without it being a restriction on our free will? That doesn't make sense to me. Did God know the angels would sin before they did so?

Why would He as He created us to be that way?

This seems circular.

I find that to be a direct attack on God's character.

It's not if it's true. Even if it's false, I don't see it as a blight on God's character to think about it as an option. But I've already suggested that the two ways I think it could work with a settled ("predetermined") future would reflect badly on either God's character or God's power. So we have duelling blights, you might say.

 

[BobRyan]

If you don't know what path you will choose until you choose it -- you are not affected in the least by God already knowing what you will do.

If I do something and someone else says "oh, yeah - I knew you would do that" -- that person did not just "delete my free will".

If I watch a movie then you come in the room and I tell you what is going to happen next at each point in the movie... I have not deleted the free will of the producer of that movie.

I don't see how you can say that. If God knows what you will do, before you are in existence, then your whole life is predetermined by something that isn't you.

That "something is God" and I don't know what He knows or how He knows it.

I never say at any point that if someone knew I was going to make the decision I just made - then I must have no free will.

That never comes up in anything I ever do.

Nor has anyone said that if I know what will happen next in the movie they are watching - that means the guy producing the movie had no free will.

We're not talking about the free will of the producer, but one of the characters in the movie.

It is both - since to get the end result someone laid it out and it involved both the producer and the actors.
The fact that I know what they did - did not stop them from having free will.
Your argument is that if God had shown me the future - that would be the thing that deletes their free will.

But you are making the human case that says "since I am not God I can only know what this or that person will do in the future - by zapping their brains and programming them like a robot to do my every bidding".

God is not limited as humans are. To argue that he is and that he can only use such human means to know the future is to fall far short of comprehending infinite God.

If you tell me what's going to happen in the movie because you've seen it already, then can any of those characters in the movie be said to have free will?

Indeed they all have free will. They all made the movie without me dictating what they would do.

Your argument is not with me knowing rather it is HOW I know what I know. Which has nothing to do with those who made that movie.

Your claim is that God only has "your means" at his disposal and is just as limited as you are in not being able to see the future. This would leave you with a God who must "program every detail in ahead of time" to know with certainty what will happen - since that is the only way you could do it - and God cannot possibly be above your level of being able to actually see the future.

I think that leaves you with some flawed assumptions.

 

[Gary K]

So you're saying that because angels sinned in heaven, then God can know our future without it being a restriction on our free will? That doesn't make sense to me. Did God know the angels would sin before they did so?


This seems circular.

It's not if it's true. Even if it's false, I don't see it as a blight on God's character to think about it as an option. But I've already suggested that the two ways I think it could work with a settled ("predetermined") future would reflect badly on either God's character or God's power. So we have duelling blights, you might say.

How do we have dueling blights.

What I'm saying doesn't make sense to you because you're viewing it through the lens of your theology. How is my viewpoint a blight on God's character? Is it a blight on His character that He made us free moral agents?

 

[Derf]

That "something is God" and I don't know what He knows or how He knows it.

How do you know THAT He knows it? For instance, how do you know for sure that God knows how many hairs you have on your head, and how did He find out?

I never say at any point that if someone knew I was going to make the decision I just made - then I must have no free will.

That never comes up in anything I ever do.

Nor has anyone said that if I know what will happen next in the movie they are watching - that means the guy producing the movie had no free will.

It is both - since to get the end result someone laid it out and it involved both the producer and the actors.
The fact that I know what they did - did not stop them from having free will.

It stops them from having (present tense) free will about anything in the movie. In other words, they can't make any changes to the choices they already made, as shown in the movie. We can view all of their choices in the movie because they have all been made. That's the nature of the past--it's fixed and unchangeable. There are some things in the past I had the ability to change when it was happening, but no longer. You're saying that the future is like that--fixed and unchangeable, such that not even God can change it, right?

Your argument is that if God had shown me the future - that would be the thing that deletes their free will.

No, I haven't ever said that.

But you are making the human case that says "since I am not God I can only know what this or that person will do in the future - by zapping their brains and programming them like a robot to do my every bidding".

I'm not. I'm offering too choices. 1. That God knows because He causes is to do everything (That's Calvinism). 2. God knows because He can somehow see the future, or just somehow knows. (That's Arminianism, from what I understand.)
I think you agree with me that #1 is wrong.
Do you agree with #2?

God is not limited as humans are. To argue that he is and that he can only use such human means to know the future is to fall far short of comprehending infinite God.

This is the same Argument Calvinists make to justify #1, i.e., "It sounds bad, but we just don't understand God."

Indeed they all have free will.

HAD free will. Your free will diesnt extend into the past.

They all made the movie without me dictating what they would do.

See what I mean? "They...made the movie..." is past tense.

Your argument is not with me knowing rather it is HOW I know what I know. Which has nothing to do with those who made that movie.

Your claim is that God only has "your means" at his disposal and is just as limited as you are in not being able to see the future. This would leave you with a God who must "program every detail in ahead of time" to know with certainty what will happen

No, I offered another option. Any determination that settles the future into only a single possibility will work. The only thing that won't work is that you and I get to settle our own future, because we didn't exist back when it was settled.

- since that is the only way you could do it - and God cannot possibly be above your level of being able to actually see the future.

Can God change the future that He sees?

I think that leaves you with some flawed assumptions.

Well, one of us, anyway.

 

[Derf]

How do we have dueling blights.

What I'm saying doesn't make sense to you because you're viewing it through the lens of your theology.

And what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you because you're viewing it through the lens of your theology.

How is my viewpoint a blight on God's character? Is it a blight on His character that He made us free moral agents?

No, it's a blight on His character that your view doesn't allow anyone to make their own choices--someone made them all before we existed, i.e., He didn't really make us free moral agents. Then He punished us.

 

[Gary K]

And what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you because you're viewing it through the lens of your theology.


No, it's a blight on His character that your view doesn't allow anyone to make their own choices--someone made them all before we existed, i.e., He didn't really make us free moral agents. Then He punished us.

So. you're a determinst just like modern day Calvinists. I'm not. I see their belief as heresy.

 

[Derf]

So. you're a determinst just like modern day Calvinists. I'm not. I see their belief as heresy.

Can you tell me what I wrote that made you think I'm a determinist?

 

[Gary K]

Can you tell me what I wrote that made you think I'm a determinist?

Because you believe that God created us without free will. That is determinism.

Here is the dictionary definition of determinism.

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will

 

[Derf]

Because you believe that God created us without free will. That is determinism.

Here is the dictionary definition of determinism.

Can you tell me what I wrote that made you think I'm a determinist?

 

[Gary K]

And what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you because you're viewing it through the lens of your theology.


No, it's a blight on His character that your view doesn't allow anyone to make their own choices--someone made them all before we existed, i.e., He didn't really make us free moral agents. Then He punished us.

Huh? I position is exactly the opposite of that. I say God created us with free will.

 

[Gary K]

Can you tell me what I wrote that made you think I'm a determinist?

No, I offered another option. Any determination that settles the future into only a single possibility will work. The only thing that won't work is that you and I get to settle our own future, because we didn't exist back when it was settled.