Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the SABBATH

[Soyeong]

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus said in Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Should we keep the Jewish Sabbath?

Not according to Matthew Poole:

The winter would naturally retard their motion, through the cold and moisture of it. The sabbath would be a moral hinderance, in regard of the superstitious opinion they had of the sabbath, that they might not upon that day defend themselves, nor flee from their enemies beyond the length of a sabbath day’s journey, which was but two miles: our Saviour hints to them that their flight must be farther. When our Saviour spake this the Jewish sabbath was the day of holy rest, and he knew that although by his resurrection he should sanctify a new sabbath, yet the Jews would not for a time understand that the old sabbath was abolished. Here is therefore no establishment of the old sabbath to be observed after his resurrection; the praying that their flight might not be upon the sabbath day respected only either their remora [i.e. delay] to their flight which the sabbath would give them, (in case they should keep it as a holy rest), or the addition of trouble it would make in their spirits, when they considered that was the day in which they were wont to go to the house of prayer, keeping it a day of holy rest unto God.​

Parallel account, Mark 13:18 Pray that this will not take place in winter.

Mark did not mention Sabbath.

Parallel account, Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.

Luke did not mention winter or Sabbath.

The evidence to support keeping the Jewish Sabbath is not that strong.

It is straightforward that Jesus said that because he expected that His followers would be continuing to keep the Sabbath holy in obedience to God's command and in accordance with the example that he set for them to follow. It is straightforward that If he expected that his followers would no longer be keeping the Sabbath holy, then he there wouldn't have been any reason for them to be concerned with whether their flight happened on the Sabbath. It is straightforward that if he expected that his followers would no longer be keeping the Sabbath after his resurrection, but that some would be confused and continue to keep it any way, then he would have clearly made a statement to stop keeping it instead of clearly stating that he came not to abolish the law and warning against relaxing or teaching others to relax the least part of it (Matthew 5:17-19). The fact that only one Gospel records something does not make it weak.

 

[tonychanyt]

It is straightforward that Jesus said that because he expected that His followers would be continuing to keep the Sabbath holy in obedience to God's command and in accordance with the example that he set for them to follow. It is straightforward that If he expected that his followers would no longer be keeping the Sabbath holy, then he there wouldn't have been any reason for them to be concerned with whether their flight happened on the Sabbath. It is straightforward that if he expected that his followers would no longer be keeping the Sabbath after his resurrection, but that some would be confused and continue to keep it any way, then he would have clearly made a statement to stop keeping it instead of clearly stating that he came not to abolish the law and warning against relaxing or teaching others to relax the least part of it (Matthew 5:17-19). The fact that only one Gospel records something does not make it weak.

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Soyeong]

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

Christ followed Sabbath holy and followers of Christ should follow Christ, so I have a high degree of certainty. If I have anything other than a high degree of certainty about what I say to you, then I'll let you know.

 

[tonychanyt]

Christ followed Sabbath holy and followers of Christ should follow Christ, so I have a high degree of certainty. If I have anything other than a high degree of certainty about what I say to you, then I'll let you know.

How certain are you about this? Can you put a number on it?

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Soyeong]

How certain are you about this? Can you put a number on it?

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

I don’t have a number to give you, I can only make the strongest case that I can and hope that you’ll discuss why you agree or disagree.

 

[tonychanyt]

I don’t have a number to give you, I can only make the strongest case that I can and hope that you’ll discuss why you agree or disagree.

At this point, I have no new argument that I think you would find profitable. So I changed my strategy. I like to find out the strength of your belief.

Since you don't have a number, I have no idea how much you really believe in your own words. There is a scientific method to figure this out:

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Soyeong]

At this point, I have no new argument that I think you would find profitable. So I changed my strategy. I like to find out the strength of your belief.

Since you don't have a number, I have no idea how much you really believe in your own words. There is a scientific method to figure this out:

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

I don't have a number, so you keep asking for one has a much greater chance of being unprofitable than interacting with what I've said.

 

[3 Resurrections]

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus said in Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Should we keep the Jewish Sabbath?

In this passage Christ was not really discussing whether it is incumbent upon us believers today to keep the Jewish Sabbath or not. That wasn't the focus of Christ's warning.

The practice of the second temple in Christ's day was to shut the gates of Jerusalem against all incoming commercial traffic to honor the Sabbath, and to reopen the gates of the city for business when the Sabbath was over. This is described in Nehemiah 13:19. "And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day."

In Christ's day, the time was coming when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies in AD 66 (the AOD), and the believers would need to flee Judea and the city of Jerusalem and head for the mountains to escape all the horrors that were going to descend upon Jerusalem and Judea in the AD 66-70 period. Those believers present in the city of Jerusalem would be hampered in their flight to the mountains if the gates of the city were shut on the Sabbath day by the Jews themselves on the very day when the believers needed to escape the city. Also, if their flight was in winter, the winter rainy season would make that escape even more difficult, so Christ recommended that the believers pray to avoid both hindrances to their escaping the "days of vengeance" that were coming on that first-century generation of Israelites.

This prediction of Christ's with regard to this first-century practice of shutting the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath limits its fulfillment to the days when that practice was still being observed. It has nothing to do with the question of whether we today are obligated to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did back in the first-century: a separate issue altogether.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In this passage Christ was not really discussing whether it is incumbent upon us believers today to keep the Jewish Sabbath or not. That wasn't the focus of Christ's warning.

The practice of the second temple in Christ's day was to shut the gates of Jerusalem against all incoming commercial traffic to honor the Sabbath, and to reopen the gates of the city for business when the Sabbath was over. This is described in Nehemiah 13:19. "And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day."

In Christ's day, the time was coming when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies in AD 66 (the AOD), and the believers would need to flee Judea and the city of Jerusalem and head for the mountains to escape all the horrors that were going to descend upon Jerusalem and Judea in the AD 66-70 period. Those believers present in the city of Jerusalem would be hampered in their flight to the mountains if the gates of the city were shut on the Sabbath day by the Jews themselves on the very day when the believers needed to escape the city. Also, if their flight was in winter, the winter rainy season would make that escape even more difficult, so Christ recommended that the believers pray to avoid both hindrances to their escaping the "days of vengeance" that were coming on that first-century generation of Israelites.

This prediction of Christ's with regard to this first-century practice of shutting the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath limits its fulfillment to the days when that practice was still being observed. It has nothing to do with the question of whether we today are obligated to keep the Sabbath as the Jews did back in the first-century: a separate issue altogether.

Jesus never once stated the reason He told His followers to pray the destruction of Jerusalem would not happen in winter or the Sabbath had to do with the gate being closed on the Sabbath in the time of Nehemiah, which had to do with trading. The gate is meaningless because it was all destroyed. The Sabbath is supposed to be a joyous occasion and a blessing Isaiah 58:13-14 and it would not be joyous to be running for your life on the Sabbath or in winter. The point of this is that the Sabbath did not end at the cross from the very words of Jesus, nor will it ever. Isaiah 66:22-23

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is for the Jews. God identifies it as My holy day Isaiah 58:13 and commands us to keep His Sabbath day holy Exodus 20:8-11 because we are made in His image to follow Him. The Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man cannot sanctify himself, only God can. Eze 20:12

 

[tonychanyt]

In Christ's day, the time was coming when Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies in AD 66 (the AOD)

What's AOD?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus never once stated the reason He told His followers to pray the destruction of Jerusalem would not happen in winter or the Sabbath had to do with the gate being closed on the Sabbath in the time of Nehemiah, which had to do with trading. The gate is meaningless because it was all destroyed.

Actually, you are making my point for me. The gate of Jerusalem truly IS meaningless for us today because it was destroyed. This means Christ's prediction of the believers needing to flee Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains doesn't apply to us today or in our future. Christ's prediction applied to that first-century generation of believers who would need to rush out of the city once they saw it first surrounded by the Zealot armies and the Roman army in AD 66 (the "abomination of desolation" which Daniel and Luke 21:20 had predicted). Josephus records that there was an immediate evacuation of many from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66, after the Roman army under Cestius Gallus had broken into the city and were prepared to burn down the gate to the temple.

Cestius Gallus could have taken the city right then, but for no valid reason whatever, (other than God's providence), Cestius Gallus withdrew his Roman army from the city and retreated, with the Zealot armies giving chase. In that brief interlude while both armies had left Jerusalem to do battle with each other in the region surrounding Jerusalem, the believers had a chance to escape Jerusalem with just the shirts on their backs, so to speak. If those few brief days had fallen on a Sabbath, the gates of the city would have been shut, preventing the believers' escape. Fortunately, that brief opportunity for flight did not fall on a Sabbath, since we can compare the casualty records of the times which show that approximately 1-1/4 million people heeded Christ's warning not to remain in the city for any reason from AD 66-70.

What's AOD?

Sorry, I should have spelled that out. The AOD is the "abomination of desolation", which Luke 21:20 interpreted for us as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, you are making my point for me.

Not really.

The gate of Jerusalem truly IS meaningless for us today because it was destroyed.

Agreed.

This means Christ's prediction of the believers needing to flee Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains doesn't apply to us today or in our future.

This is called reading into scripture. The words of Jesus are not meaningless, He did not make a prediction that doesn't mean anything, you are reading what you want into scripture and ignoring the very words of Jesus.

Christ's prediction applied to that first-century generation of believers who would need to rush out of the city once they saw it first surrounded by the Zealot armies and the Roman army in AD 66 (the "abomination of desolation" which Daniel and Luke 21:20 had predicted). Josephus records that there was an immediate evacuation of many from the city of Jerusalem in AD 66, after the Roman army under Cestius Gallus had broken into the city and were prepared to burn down the gate to the temple.
Cestius Gallus could have taken the city right then, but for no valid reason whatever, (other than God's providence), Cestius Gallus withdrew his Roman army from the city and retreated, with the Zealot armies giving chase. In that brief interlude while both armies had left Jerusalem to do battle with each other in the region surrounding Jerusalem, the believers had a chance to escape Jerusalem with just the shirts on their backs, so to speak. If those few brief days had fallen on a Sabbath, the gates of the city would have been shut, preventing the believers' escape. Fortunately, that period of flight did not fall on a Sabbath, since we can compare the casualty records of the times which show that approximately 1-1/4 million people heeded Christ's warning not to remain in the city for any reason from AD 66-70.

Sorry, I should have spelled that out. The AOD is the "abomination of desolation", which Luke 21:20 interpreted for us as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

Matthew 24 is a prophetic chapter that correlate with Daniel and Revelation. There is a dual prophecy here and this also has a future application. The Sabbath never ended at the Cross, every Sabbath was being kept by His followers decades after the cross, Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 18:2 and will be kept in heaven for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is called reading into scripture. The words of Jesus are not meaningless, He did not make a prediction that doesn't mean anything, you are reading what you want into scripture and ignoring the very words of Jesus.

The imminence of these events for that first-century generation was emphasized by Christ Himself in Luke 21:36. Christ included everything in His list from Luke 21:8 up until Luke 21:35 when He announced in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man."

A child would be able to determine from this context that the ones Jesus was speaking to directly at that time would live to see ALL those events happening SOON in their own lifetime.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The imminence of these events for that first-century generation was emphasized by Christ Himself in Luke 21:36. Christ included everything in His list from Luke 21:8 up until Luke 21:35 when He announced in Luke 21:36, "Watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man."

A child would be able to determine from this context that the ones Jesus was speaking to directly at that time would live to see ALL those events happening SOON in their own lifetime.

Luke 21:8 is the same account in Matthew....

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.


Has Jesus came again and has the end of age happened yet? Nope, these are things still to come. The first thing Jesus warns us about is false teachings. Jesus taught us to keep His Fathers commandments and He kept them Himself as did His followers and apostles. John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 Matthew 15:3-9, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:19-30 Luke 23:56 The teaching we can break one of His holy commandments is not coming from God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The teaching we can break one of His holy commandments is not coming from God.

I'm not even addressing that point at all, since it isn't even the theme of Christ's warning for the believers of that first-century to pray for a flight which was not going to occur on the Sabbath.

There are multiple ages of humanity's history on this globe. (Personally, I see scripture teaching about 7 millennial ages total before the ages of eternity begin for us.) Paul wrote of the (plural) "AGES that are coming" from his perspective on the timeline.

James 5:3 rebuked the rich men who had heaped treasure together "in these last days". The timing of those "last days" had narrowed down to 1 John 2:18 saying that "it is the last HOUR". And 1 Peter 4:7 had said that "The end of all things is at hand..." meaning the end of all things was presently in place at that time.

We know that history kept marching forward after those first-century "last days" and "last hour", so there were other multiple "ages" that arose after Peter's "end of all things" which took place in the first century.

Has Jesus came again and has the end of age happened yet? Nope, these are things still to come.

What is yet to come in our future is Christ's final bodily coming (which is not the same as His coming at "the end of all things" which concluded that other prior age).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm not even addressing that point at all, since it isn't even the theme of Christ's warning for the believers of that first-century to pray for a flight which was not going to occur on the Sabbath.

There are multiple ages of humanity's history on this globe. (Personally, I see scripture teaching about 7 millennial ages total before the ages of eternity begin for us.) Paul wrote of the (plural) "AGES that are coming" from his perspective on the timeline.

James 5:3 rebuked the rich men who had heaped treasure together "in these last days". The timing of those "last days" had narrowed down to 1 John 2:18 saying that "it is the last HOUR". And 1 Peter 4:7 had said that "The end of all things is at hand..." meaning the end of all things was presently in place at that time.

We know that history kept marching forward after those first-century "last days" and "last hour", so there were other multiple "ages" that arose after Peter's "end of all things" which took place in the first century.

What is yet to come in our future is Christ's final bodily coming (which is not the same as His coming at "the end of all things" which concluded that other prior age).

I really have no idea the point you are trying to make. Nothing you have posted says anything about the Sabbath commandment ending at the cross. If Jesus indicated it would be kept long after He ascended, it means it did not end.

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ has not come yet, where all eyes will see Him and the saints will meet Him in the clouds, which will bring an end to earth as we know it.

 

[Soyeong]

How certain are you about this? Can you put a number on it?

Let proposition P1 = Every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.
P2 = Not every Christian today is required to keep the weekly Saturday Sabbaths.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

You make many threads that state your position on various topics, yet you don't include the weight that you put on your position while explaining how you arrived at that number, so why do you demand that others hold to a standard that you don't hold to yourself?

 

[tonychanyt]

You make many threads that state your position on various topics, yet you don't include the weight that you put on your position while explaining how you arrived at that number, so why do you demand that others hold to a standard that you don't hold to yourself?

Go ahead: ask me here or in other threads. Feel free

 

[3 Resurrections]

I really have no idea the point you are trying to make. Nothing you have posted says anything about the Sabbath commandment ending at the cross. If Jesus indicated it would be kept long after He ascended, it means it did not end

The Sabbath observances were being kept by the observant Jews after Jesus ascended, but that doesn't necessarily imply that this was incumbent upon the believers to do so. Those physical temple Sabbath ritual observances performed by observing Jews stopped in real time by the destruction of the temple - which was God's intent. That physical temple's worship system had become a competing idol in opposition to the "change in the law" concerning Christ's superior high priesthood, which Hebrews 7:12 wrote about.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Sabbath observances were being kept by the observant Jews after Jesus ascended, but that doesn't necessarily imply that this was incumbent upon the believers to do so.

The apostles were commissioned to observe everything Jesus commanded of them, and they observed every Sabbath decades after the cross. Acts 13:42 Acts 1344 Acts 18:4. Your argument is not one made in the scriptures. There is no Jew or Gentiles if in Christ. Gal 2:26-28 Which is why the Gentiles asked for more gospel preaching on the next Sabbath instead of asking for day 1 preaching.

Those physical temple Sabbath ritual observances performed by observing Jews stopped in real time by the destruction of the temple - which was God's intent. That physical temple's worship system had become a competing idol in opposition to the "change in the law" concerning Christ's superior high priesthood, which Hebrews 7:12 wrote about.

There is no scripture that says there has to be a physical temple in Israel in order to keep the Sabbath commandment. Can you point to that scripture?

Peter a Gentile was keeping the Sabbath even when there was no physical temple in the area he was preaching. Acts 16:13

Jesus minsters from a heavenly Temple now Hebrews 8:2 and we are a temple to the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 6:19 so we need to keep our bodies clean from sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes directly from the Ten to define sin. Romans 7:7