"Demonology 101" – Traditional Christian Basics & Diabolic Tactics

[Reader Antonius]

Pax, Ειρήνη, שלום! Praised be Jesus Christ!

I recently wrote this treatment for a friend. It is based on my studies of historical demonology, knowledge I've gleaned over the years from exorcists & those who assist them (including psychologists or doctors who scrutinize claims of cases), and the general experience & theology of Christians over the centuries. It is therefore a synthesis, although more based on experience than abstract theology. In many cases, the theology was confirmed or developed due to the experiences of ghosts & demons over the millennia. Some of it may be agreeable; some not. But this is the basic structure of Western demonology, and much of it is shared with the various Eastern Churches. Protestantism is most likely to contest certain claims, but, as I said, much of what is written here is based on experience than theologizing. I post it here so that knowledge of the Enemy's tactics and history might be known, and for anyone who may need this information.

Part I: Basic Theological Points

Demons are rebellious angels/spirits that have irrevocably chosen to oppose God. They harbor deep envy for humans, especially, because we are so beloved & because we can procreate with God. Satan, for all his great power (indeed, he may be the most powerful creation of God), cannot himself create anything nor reproduce. He can only warp what is already created. Demons lie, steal, destroy, and are never friends to humans. They hate us utterly, and desire us to be damned with them in Hell.

In ancient times, before the coming of Christ, the dominion of the Devil was almost supreme. After the Fall of Man, demons took up roles as "gods" of the various peoples. They spread iniquity and sin. They taught us things we were not ready to know. To make weapons, appear more sexually attractive, worship nature, astrology, divination, necromancy, and many other things. Yet, God was always intervening. He chose Israel as His own possession and began Divine Revelation, and He also influenced the rise of Gentile "prophets" & philosophers (e.g., Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Confucius, Lao Tzu, Mencius, Stoics, Neoplatonists, Indian Gymnosophists, Zarathustra, Siddhartha Gautama, Numa Pompilius, Archimedes, Posidonius, etc.) to challenge demonic lies; although they themselves had no protection against them, and so many truths of reason were admixed with errors. This phenomenon was called the "seeds of the Word (Logos)," and Christians commented on it as early as St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100s).

A key point, to which we shall return, is that the demonic realm operates according to a kind of system of "rights & permissions." This is especially the case in the Age of the Church. Put simply, God permits in His Good Providence to allow demons to tempt us. This is their "ordinary" activity. Yet, we can "invite" demons into our lives (I will discuss how momentarily), giving them "rights & permissions" to engage in "extraordinary" activity. God permits this too for the greater good & due to human freedom. Suffice it to say at the moment, Satan had "rights" over humanity because of the Fall. This is part of why Christ came to redeem us.

Through His life & the Paschal Mystery, Christ outwitted the Devil & reversed the weapons he used to enslave us. By atoning for sin, conquering Death by death, and glorifying human nature by the Resurrection, the Devil's "rights" over us were broken. Moreover, and this is important, Christ began what the Church & the Book of Revelation (Rev. 20) call the "Millennium." The Devil and the demons have been "chained," i.e., heavily limited in what they can do to us. In this "millennium," the demonic can only engage in extraordinary activity if "invited" by humans. Naturally, this follows the eschatology of Amillennialism, which is by far the dominant Christian view since the late Patristic era.

So, how do the demons get these "invitations, rights, & permissions?" There are three main ways. First, one can actively summon, call upon, or worship the demonic. This is rare. It is usually confined to hidden familial Satanic cults which seem to be spread over the world, small covens of modern theistic Satanists of Left-Hand Path religions, and outright demonolatry. Second, they can be invited "unwittingly" through the commission of heinous & grave sins. This is part of the phenomenon of "haunted houses" which have a history of something terrible happening therein. Things like mass murder, idolatry, abuse, sexual depravity, torture, and the like can allow them "access." Third, and this is perhaps the saddest, permission can be given that isn't revoked because the human does not or cannot renounce the rights, or the demon has not yet been driven away. Demons can thus be attached to places for a very long time, or even families it seems. It is thought that many pre-Columbian places in the Americas saw this phenomenon before the coming of the Gospel. Sometimes this is due to the human who first allowed the demon being dead or unwilling to renounce the permission given. This means that the demon can continue to have rights unless a descendent renounces these, or it is driven out by exorcism or some other means. This manifests in haunted places of malevolence, family history of demonic activity, curses & cursed objects, and other ways.

Continued...

 

[Reader Antonius]

Part II: Ghostly Hauntings vs. Demonic Activity

An important excursus here: there is a difference between a ghostly haunting & and demonic haunting (what is properly called "infestation"). This seems to have taken a while to distinguish in Church history, but it became clearer over the centuries. Generally, it is taught that ghosts are spirits in a state of pre-Heavenly purification (what the Western Church calls "Purgatory," but without the medieval notions of "place" and other superstitions). The human spirits seem to be able to be attached to a place (perhaps to work out something unfinished in life before entering Heavenly glory). They also often gravitate to monasteries and churches, most likely hoping for prayerful help. They will only interact with living, embodied humans out of a desire to receive our prayers for them. Otherwise they do not communicate, as per God's command against necromancy. The most common way human spirits do this is by "poltergeist" activity. Unexplained "knocking" sounds, strange happenings like lights being turned on or doors that were locked being found open. But these things are never frightening...just odd. It is meant to get our attention. The simplest way to rid a place of a human ghost is to enter the "area" where the activity is and ask aloud: "Do you need prayer?" Nothing more is to be said.

If the spirit is a human ghost, there will be some response; usually things like knocking sounds or otherwise unexplained noises. Rare cases are reported with an auditory "yes" or some equivalent. One simply then prays for them. In the West, the Office of the Dead or a Mass or prayer service said in the area almost always ends the activity. I was privileged to help a human ghost haunting a room in the retreat house of an Byzantine Eastern monastery who seems to have been there for forty or so years. Rumors were someone either died in that room or, sadly, committed suicide. I simply prayed the Office of the Dead & Byzantine prayers for the dead in the room. During the Office, there was banging on the window (unexplainable as the window neither moved nor vibrated), and then a sound of wood scraping against the wall. Another visitor observed this, a bit to his shock. Then silence. The Abbot told me he thinks I successfully helped "cleanse" the room, and there has been no activity since.

Demonic hauntings or activity will never respond to these things. They often will try to mimic human ghosts to dupe people into trying to communicate with them, which violates the commandment against necromancy. This dynamic is shown in the fact that human spirits will never communicate beyond asking for prayer, nor are we permitted to communicate with human ghosts beyond asking them if they need prayer. When prayers for the dead do not end the paranormal activity, this virtually always indicates something demonic is at work.

Continued...

 

[Reader Antonius]

Part III: Types of Extraordinary Demonic Activity & How to Oppose Such

Moving on, there are four primary historic ways demons engage in extraordinary activity beyond temptation, which is their ordinary activity, and we all experience it. The four are these: Obsession, Infestation, Oppression, Possession; usually in that order. Other names may be used, but these refer to the same general phenomena. Demonic activity, once invited, tends to start small and then escalate. Yet, this is not set in stone. Sometimes demons can be invited so profoundly that they move immediately to possession. Other times, they seem to calculate that they can do more damage by staying on the lower "tiers" like obsession & infestation. I will now explain the four types.

I. Obsession
This is the most common type of extraordinary demonic activity. In fact, I suspect most everyone has experienced it at some point. Basically, the demons attach themselves to a person (usually through sin) and try to make them despair, feel an urge to harm themselves or others, and experience things like vivid nightmares or unexplained thoughts of evil things. The symptoms can be extremely similar to mental illness, which often requires clinical intervention first to rule out natural explanations. Often however, confirming obsession can be helped by a previous "invitation" in the subject's history, or types of non-medically explained experiences as related above. These cases are easy to clear. Renunciation of any rights given, repentance, & the sacraments (especially confession) usually end the activity. The unbaptized and converts generally also see activity end when they become Christians.

[N.B. An exorcism, whether minor or major, is nowhere near as powerful as the sacraments & consist prayer, it seems. Exorcisms are merely "sacramentals" of pastoral case. In effect, they are a type of blessing. Consistent reception of sacraments, especially confession & Eucharist, as well as frequent prayer are quite established as the best protection against demonic activity.]

II. Infestation
This is when demons (they usually act in groups rather than alone) attach themselves to a place, object, or even more rarely, animals. This is most often the cause of purported "haunted houses." The symptoms are very different from human ghosts. Frightening things occur. There may be ominous sounds, foul smells, sensations (e.g., sudden, frigid coldness or extreme heat), fearful sights, or even physical interactions (e.g., unexplained scratches, usually in threes to mock the Most Holy Trinity). An object that is infested is usually called "cursed." It is simply the opposite of a blessed object. The blessed object is given over to God and holy use, while the cursed object is given to demons or evil. Cursed objects can be directly created by occult activity, or they can be somehow related to some heinous sin(s) that happened on or near them (e.g., idols, pagan altars, objects used in suicides or murder, etc.). Sometimes places can be infested because a cursed object is in the area or nearby. Satanic cults have a history of doing this to ward off outsiders. Lastly, and more rarely, animals can be also be infested. Since they have no rational soul but are purely material, they can be cursed like objects. It is thought & reported that hidden familial cults of Satanists (as told by those who fled such families seeking help from the Church) will use animal "familiars" in their worship of the Devil & rituals. Likewise, an animal in an infested place or somehow involved in some heinous human activity can become cursed. Minor exorcisms, a Mass or prayer service, or house blessings usually get rid of infestations. Blessing of an animal or a minor exorcism of it can end the curse on the animal.

[N.B. It is well established that "sacramentals" (as the West calls them) are powerful weapons against the demonic, and are often used very effectively to ward off demonic activity or even drive it away; most especially in cases of infestation. Traditional things like holy water, copies of Holy Scripture, blessed salt, blessed oils, blessed incense that is burned, signs of the Cross, house blessings, holy icons, and other traditional objects or practices usually have great effect against demons in general. Even Jews report similar effects with things like mezuzahs, shofars, tallilot & tzitzit, tefillin, and Torah scrolls.]

III. Oppression
Here is where we get into more serious territory that usually requires clerical or ecclesial intervention. Oppression is basically an infestation of a human person. The demon(s) attach themselves to a person directly. It is not possession because the demons do not have control of physical capacities, but it often leads to possession eventually. It manifests as extreme changes in behavior (always negative); seeing very frightening or disgusting things; demonic or evil apparitions; physical attacks like scratches or beatings; rarely, sexual violations or attacks (historically called "incubi & succubi"); and generally overwhelmingly negative unexplained paranormal activity around the human subject. This is often where a clinical psychological and physical examination is warranted to rule out any natural explanations. If these can be ruled out, an exorcist should be requested. There are a number of ways to combat oppression that I need not go into here, as they coincide with either the efforts used against infestations or even major exorcisms as with possession. It depends on the pastoral case.

IV. Possession
This is the final manifestation of extraordinary demonic activity, and the limit that God will permit. This is when demons enter a person, and gain the ability to use their physical or mental capacities. The human spirit cannot be touched by the demon, only the physical mind & body. The possessed (called "demoniacs") usually go back and forth from being in control of themselves, or the demonic taking control. It is similar to epileptics going in and out of seizures, or mental states involving going in and out of consciousness & unconsciousness. The key to diagnosing true demoniacs is the manifestations of preternatural abilities. Since ancient times, the both Second Temple Judaism & the Church has identified common examples of this. For example, the Roman Ritual lists the following: Speaking or responding to foreign or ancient languages of which the possessed has no prior knowledge; supernatural abilities and inexplicable physical strength; knowledge of hidden or remote things which a human has no way of knowing; an aversion (often violent) to anything holy or blessed, especially the Eucharist; and profuse blasphemy and/or sacrilege. Other manifestations may occur, but these are the most common.

Possession requires a major exorcism(s) which take place as part of pastoral care. Often multiple demons are present, and they seem to establish a hierarchy inside the demoniac. Major exorcisms may need to be repeated over time to drive out the lesser demons until the demon in charge reveals itself. The demoniac, insofar as he/she can, must also cooperate by prayer & ending any sinful activity that may have caused the possession (e.g., occult activity, etc.). The climax of a traditional major exorcism is usually when the bishop or authorized presbyter, using the Apostolic authority of Christ, demands that the demon reveal its name. Since it is Christ's authority, they must do so and cannot resist the command. Once the name is revealed (this is also how we know many of their names), the demon essentially loses all power to resist further. At this point, the exorcism usually will result in the demon being driven out and the person returning to normal (often also experiencing profound relief & liberation). As an example, the current Roman Rite of Exorcism (the major exorcism) can be read in English here. It is very beautiful and contains valuable truths! Protestants & Eastern Christians have their own rites or practices. It is crucial however that an unauthorized or untrained person, even a minister, not attempt any exorcism. This is because such attempts almost always fail, and/or make the situation far worse. Without the power & authority of Christ, usually delegated or given in some other way, no Christian can drive out a demon.

I should note in passing that each level of extraordinary demonic activity is a "calculated risk" on the part of the Evil One and his legions. As the exorcist will say to the demon(s) in the many rites, the longer the demons continue their activity the harsher their punishment will be. Even though God Providentially permits extraordinary demonic activity, He also punishes it severely. Demons therefore do not always engage in extraordinary activity unless they calculate in their angelic intelligence that it is "worth it" to do great ruin on the Kingdom of God. It also is known that very holy & godly people, and/or people who the Evil One fears may be a significant threat are targeted. In the case of very holy people living a good Christian life, this does not seem very effective for the demonic. To illustrate, the Desert Father, St. Anthony the Great, the Egyptian Coptic Christian & founder of monasticism, often had encounters with demons in the desert. Sometimes these encounters were violent. Eventually however, St. Athanasius of Alexandria reports that a powerful demon appeared in a horrific apparition to St. Anthony as he slept. This awoke him, but when he saw the apparition, he is simply said: "You again?" and then rolled over and returned to sleep.

[N.B. Demons, like angels, are vastly more powerful & intelligent than humans. But they have important limitations. They cannot know our secret thoughts (although they know humans so well they can generally surmise what we're thinking correctly); they cannot act unless permitted by Divine Providence; angels (especially Archangels), as well as saints now in Heaven praying for the afflicted are both generally more than a match for them; demons cannot know or foresee future events (though they will often pretend to or claim such). Among other limits. We are not to forget that, though they are immortal, bodiless powers, they are also finite creatures. They have zero power compared to the Almighty. It has been proposed frequently that, by permitting them in His Providence to do evil, God actually is "forcing" them to serve His Good Will in the end.]

Continued...

 

[Reader Antonius]

Part IV: Common Demons Encountered or Summoned by Occultists

Still with me? Good! Take a well-deserved break, lol.

Before I go further, I want to list the names of major demons that have been exposed in exorcisms, the Scriptures, or Judeo-Christian tradition. Some of these names were compiled in books called "grimoires" in the Middle Ages by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. For the purposes of this essay, I will list the ones commonly named in Scripture, Tradition, and various ancient texts. I list these names so that, if one comes across them in pastoral counseling or care, it may possibly indicate something diabolical. I will list them in no particular order, although the first ten are reported to be extremely powerful & difficult cases.

Lucifer/Evil One/Satan/Devil
Mammon
Asmodeus/Ashmedai
Leviathan/Lotan
Be'elzebub
Belphegor
Ba'al
Belial/Belias
Paimon
Behemoth
Ahriman
Shaitan
Beleth
Balam
Agares
Ba'al Berith
Molech/Moloch
Chemosh
Legion/Host
Crocell
Yam
Pazuzu
Zagan
Amduscias/Amdukias
Valefar/Malaphar
Alloces/Allocer
Furcas
Zozo/Soso
Milcom
Dagon
Astaroth/Astarte/Asherah
Dantalion
Resheph
Seir
Amon/Amun
Malthus/Halphas
Raum/Ra'im
Valac

These are some of the names of the demons that are usually summoned by occultists, Satanists, and demonolaters. They also appear during exorcisms when they are forced to reveal their names. As above, some have variations or additional aliases. They seem to be derived mostly from Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin; although other language groups (or even no known human language family) appear. Generally, it seems to me in my study of documented case, the most commonly encountered are the major ones at the beginning of the list; although the more knowledgeable may know of more. Each has a "sigil" (a type of stylized symbol) which demonolaters use to summon or evoke the demon. Interestingly, the Evil One himself seems to appear only rarely in the possessed. It is not known why this is the case, but such possessions are extremely difficult to resolve, and may take significant repeated exorcisms before Satan is driven out. In many cases, he can be distinguished by a strange cold & calculating manner, as well as a profound arrogance towards the exorcist(s). This is generally not the case with other demons, as they tend to be more violent, erratic, blasphemous, & almost animalistic.

A final point that is needful. When the topic of exorcism is brought up, most think of frightening preternatural events such as levitation, extreme strength, great violence, growls or multiple languages, etc. Part of this is due to the popular entertainment which has dominated the topic since the 1960s & 70s (the movie, "The Exorcist" is the most prominent example). Now, it is certainly true that extremely preternatural activity can be done by a demoniac. These do indeed include what many popularly think of and that I listed above. That said, these are usually uncommon...and that is partially for a very specific reason.

The Evil One and his demons are quite aware that they are no match for the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. They know fully that ecclesial intervention, especially by a trained & authorized exorcist and his team, will be capable of driving them out. Therefore, the extraordinary abilities or powers manifested in demoniacs – most particularly the supernatural & inexplicable – are, essentially, "parlor tricks" (as one famous exorcist called them). They are not evidence that the demon is more powerful than Christ; in fact, quite the contrary, they usually indicate that the demonic is desperate. The purpose of these supernatural manifestations is to scare away the exorcist or anyone attempting to help in the pastoral care of the possessed. This is also often the case when infestations of places & things, or oppression of individuals is involved. Generally speaking, by the time it is clear that an exorcism or other ecclesial intervention is required & begun, the demonic has already lost its attempt. Thus, demons will often attempt to keep people away or horrify them into leaving places they control. This also is part of why they prefer deserted places, as the Gospels say.

Conclusion below...

 

[Reader Antonius]

Conclusion: The Supremacy of the Lord Jesus Christ

To conclude, then, we must not forget that God is Almighty and sovereign in His rule. The Most Holy Trinity alone is God, and all Hell trembles before Him in abject terror. Christ Jesus, the Risen Lord and God and Savior, has utterly conquered the despair and madness of Death & Hell, as well as the Evil One and his angels. The God-Man, who became one of us to save all of us, has already won the victory. He can and does free us daily from this primordial liar who bound us almost at the beginning, but who now has been trampled upon by the events of that first Holy Week. And a Day is coming which, for certain, the Evil One and all his minions, will be forever placed in eternal & just punishment...and God will ultimately free the cosmos from all the works of Darkness.

Then the Thrice-Holy God & Lord will bring an End of Night.

Therefore, if we take His Hand...walking before Him in faith, love, & righteousness...we have no reason to fear the demonic. Yet, we must also be wary as it is Written by the Blessed Apostle St. Peter: "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith..." (1 Pet. 5:8-9).

Fin.

 

[Reader Antonius]

Just to clarify: comments, thoughts, and even discussion of disagreements are more than welcome, but I do demand & insist upon charity and civility.

 

[BobRyan]

While I agree "mostly" with the OP - I don't find it as easy to have that level of agreement with the second post.

Part II: Ghostly Hauntings vs. Demonic Activity

An important excursus here: there is a difference between a ghostly haunting & and demonic haunting (what is properly called "infestation"). This seems to have taken a while to distinguish in Church history, but it became clearer over the centuries. Generally, it is taught that ghosts are spirits in a state of pre-Heavenly purification (what the Western Church calls "Purgatory," but without the medieval notions of "place" and other superstitions). The human spirits seem to be able to be attached to a place (perhaps to work out something unfinished in life before entering Heavenly glory). They also often gravitate to monasteries and churches, most likely hoping for prayerful help. They will only interact with living, embodied humans out of a desire to receive our prayers for them. Otherwise they do not communicate, as per God's command against necromancy. The most common way human spirits do this is by "poltergeist" activity.

They are one and the same thing , demonic spirits. But in the one case these demon sales-agents claim to be departed loved ones and in the other case these demon spirits just claim to be demons. So for example we have the case where the demons are impersonating a human such as is the case in 1 Sam 28.

from: What is a familiar spirit in biblical context?
"A familiar spirit is actually a demon who has listened and observed people and is imitating one who is deceased… and it appears or speaks to someone, often a relative or loved one. The Bible instructs us not to have conversations with the dead, because it is really a demon"

YLT - 1 Sam 28:​

8 And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'​

​

NKJV - 1 Sam 28​

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”​

​

NIV - 1 Sam 28:​

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.​

1. Notice the "familiar spirit" is not Samuel - rather it is the one they appeal to - supposedly having the power to "bring up" Samuel. The idea is that even the saints of God who have died are under direct control of demon spirits - familiar spirits - who can haul them up on a moment's notice on behalf of any witch/medium that commands them to do it. What a "story".

2. Saul was specific in wanting to contact "a medium"

NKJV 1 Same 28:​

7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”​

And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”​

​

YLT: 1 Sam 28:​

7 And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.​

=======

Satan's "story line" is that his agents - his "familiar spirits" work with a witch and have power over the dead to "bring up anyone you wish to communicate with" .. They claim to be the ones with the power to bring up dead saints such as Samuel in this case.

So I agree that there are varying genre's of deception, various story lines , but in the end it is all demons.

 

[Reader Antonius]

So I agree that there are varying genre's of deception, various story lines , but in the end it is all demons.

Indeed, this is point where most Protestants will most likely disagree, as Protestantism & its later variations arose in part out of a rejection of the concept of a pre-Heavenly purification. Thus, the only possible explanation for the phenomenon of "human ghosts" in traditional Protestant Christianity is that they are actually demons in disguise.

I respect this opinion, as I once held it. Yet, one reason I came to believe differently is that I found it simply is not capable of explaining the distinction of experiences. It is true that demons often attempt to disguise themselves as ghosts, but even this involves activity that simply does not occur with cases of human "ghosts." This is partially why it is not a majority opinion in Christianity as it contradicts the experiences over the years.

I would actually argue that only a doctrine of pre-Heavenly purification (or some equivalent) can explain the phenomenon of non-demonic human spirits or ghosts in a Christian cosmology. Human spirits either go to Heaven or Hell after death; there is no other destination or end after the particular judgment. What is called "Purgatory" is simply a part of Heaven for those who require further purification & sanctification before entering the fullness of Heavenly glory. This is part of why the disagreement exists on the point of human ghosts.

The Eastern & Oriental Churches have variations on this theme, but generally agree there is a difference between a demon's activity and disembodied human ghosts. They will not use the term "Purgatory" however unless it is necessary for comprehension. The doctrine however is virtually the same: there are human spirits that exist in a state before Heaven yet are destined for it (finishing of sanctification or purification is usually the explanation), and it is both possible & encouraged to help them by the prayers of the living. This, actually, is the only part of the historical doctrine of "Purgatory" in the West even that is considered "de fide" dogmatic. It is a type of doctrinal reflex of a "realism" concept of the Church as the Body of Christ. That is, physical death does not separate the members of the Body. An example of an Eastern concept of this can be found in the Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 A.D. as a response to rising Calvinism in the East:

Decree XVIII

We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed.

But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.

In substance, this is identical to the dogmatic teachings of the Roman Catholic Church; especially as it was refined at the Ecumenical Council of Trent and subsequent doctrinal development. Thus there is little disagreement between Catholic & Eastern Orthodox on this point, at least according to the Confession of St. Dosítheos at this Pan-Orthodox Synod.

Yet, due to the lack of a cosmological explanation like "Purgatory" in Protestantism, human ghosts cannot be theologically conceived as existing. They must be either demons or non-human spirits. Interestingly, however, there are cases where some Protestants did believe in human ghosts or accept their reality. But this varied, and I have (as of yet) not found a Protestant theologian who either believes in such a thing, and has a theological paradigm with which to explain it.

Jimmy Akin, an apologist & extraordinarily erudite autodidact, actually did a podcast on this subject that I found very interesting. It may be helpful here, as Jimmy discussed the Biblical concepts of "ghosts." It does have a Catholic perspective, but it is also pan-Christian in scope:

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed, this is point where most Protestants will most likely disagree, as Protestantism & its later variations arose in part out of a rejection of the concept of a pre-Heavenly purification.

We don't find purgatory in the Bible and EVEN in the classic purgatory doctrines we don't find that purgatory is here on Earth among the living so that the dead are wandering here among the living since that is where purgatory is.

I suspect you agree that this is not a view that Protestants would have but I doubt many Catholics think that way either.

Thus, the only possible explanation for the phenomenon of "human ghosts" in traditional Protestant Christianity is that they are actually demons in disguise.

Agreed.

I respect this opinion, as I once held it. Yet, one reason I came to believe differently is that I found it simply is not capable of explaining the distinction of experiences.

I agree with you that there are two different genres here, two different claims, two different story lines. But what makes you think that demons are not capable of spinning BOTH stories. Two movies all orchestrated by the same cast of characters.

It is true that demons often attempt to disguise themselves as ghosts, but even this involves activity that simply does not occur with cases of human "ghosts."

Again - what is it that you think a fallen angel could not pull off in the case of the dead-human-haunting-you story line?

I would actually argue that only a doctrine of pre-Heavenly purification (or some equivalent) can explain the phenomenon of non-demonic human spirits or ghosts in a Christian cosmology.

What part of the classic purgatory teaching has the spirits of dead humans still on earth and left to haunt the living as a "purgatory"?
I thought the entire argument for purgatory was "purging from sins" rather than "incurring more guilt".

How do you get to your conclusion that this is the teaching of purgatory?

Human spirits either go to Heaven or Hell after death; there is no other destination or end after the particular judgment.

True and neither of those places is "Chicago" or a "house in Chicago".

At Christ's appearing all saints (the dead and the living) are raptured to heaven (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31) but that is not Chicago. It happens at what the Bible calls the first resurrection

At the Rev 20 second resurrection the wicked are cast into hell "the lake of fire"

What is called "Purgatory" is simply a part of Heaven

Heaven is also not a house in Chicago. How do you get " a part of heaven" to be a haunted house in Tenn or Chicago?

 

[BobRyan]

Yet, due to the lack of a cosmological explanation like "Purgatory" in Protestantism, human ghosts cannot be theologically conceived as existing. They must be either demons or non-human spirits. Interestingly, however, there are cases where some Protestants did believe in human ghosts or accept their reality. But this varied, and I have (as of yet) not found a Protestant theologian who either believes in such a thing, and has a theological paradigm with which to explain it.

Some non-Catholic groups do believe in the immortal soul being very active at the point of the death of the person, so a few people will imagine some sort of "accident" where the soul did not get to its destination in hell or in heaven and so while stuck here it is trying to resume its journey. but that is simply "making stuff up" since no Bible text points to such a thing existing.

Other non-Catholic groups accept the John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 statements on "sleep" so then the soul/spirit is in a dormant state, no walking about haunting houses in that case not for the damned and not for the saints.

 

[Reader Antonius]

We don't find purgatory in the Bible and EVEN in the classic purgatory doctrines we don't find that purgatory is here on Earth among the living so that the dead are wandering here among the living since that is where purgatory is.

I suspect you agree that this is not a view that Protestants would have but I doubt many Catholics think that way either.

Agreed.

I agree with you that there are two different genres here, two different claims, two different story lines. But what makes you think that demons are not capable of spinning BOTH stories. Two movies all orchestrated by the same cast of characters.

Again - what is it that you think a fallen angel could not pull off in the case of the dead-human-haunting-you story line?

What part of the classic purgatory teaching has the spirits of dead humans still on earth and left to haunt the living as a "purgatory"?
I thought the entire argument for purgatory was "purging from sins" rather than "incurring more guilt".

How do you get to your conclusion that this is the teaching of purgatory?

True and neither of those places is "Chicago" or a "house in Chicago".

At Christ's appearing all saints (the dead and the living) are raptured to heaven (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31) but that is not Chicago. It happens at what the Bible calls the first resurrection

At the Rev 20 second resurrection the wicked are cast into hell "the lake of fire"

Heaven is also not a house in Chicago. How do you get " a part of heaven" to be a haunted house in Tenn or Chicago?

Part of the confusion may be that the dogma of Purgatory is rather distinct from the various doctrinal explanations and popular beliefs that accompanied it, especially in medieval times. Only rather recently have these typical formulations or catechetical explanations been dropped as merely speculative, despite having a long Western history. Like all doctrines, "Purgatory" developed from the Apostolic deposit to become more clear over time without changing its basic substance. Moreover, very little about the Last Things seems to have been revealed by the Apostles as the last revelatory agents until the Parousia. Thus, the most current and developed notion of Purgatory is more simple than the speculations of the past in the West (which, by the way, were the main reasons the Eastern Orthodox had objections to it until recently). The universal Catholic Catechism explains it simply as:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. [...] 1032 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead...

These are really the only dogmatic points on Purgatory that are considered "de fide." Not even the Ecumenical Council of Trent, perhaps the height of Western theological language, defines Purgatory as place or a literal purifying fire, as was commonly held. Hence, it is equivalent to the Eastern Catholic position, which probably influenced the Western Church's simplification of the speculative theological accretions. The two most recent Popes before Francis commented on this better understanding of the dogma:

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820)." –Pope St. John Paul the Great, Audience of August 4th, 1999.

"Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves." –Pope Benedict XVI, Spe Salvi, 47.

Both unequivocally presume a state rather than a place of confinement. And if it is not necessarily locative, then it is possible (like demons and angels) for bodiless human spirits to "haunt" a place – although, as I said elsewhere, only the notion of a "Purgatorial" state of being would apply or make theological sense.

Hence, in Catholic theology (East & West) it is quite clear that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are not places in a physical sense. Rather, they are states of being as spirits have no inherent locative quality, being immaterial. Moreover, Purgatory is therefore a better understood also as a state of being inextricably tied to Heaven rather than a "third" state; although certainly we can speak of it as a "third" in an accidental sense. Either way though, "Purgatory" is clearly impossible to totally divorce from Heaven, and therefore it is not a "third state" substantially since it is only for the saved. This teaching is well established.

This also helps explain why human ghosts can be attached to places or gravitate to churches & monasteries. We perceive them as acting in a locative manner (and how could we not as embodied spirits?), but in reality it is not so. Most probably, it is related to how the demonic (and even angelic) can be "attached" to a place, as they likewise are immaterial. We do not however fully understand this dynamic, nor is it really necessary to get the mechanics of it. We just know it happens by experience and is also doctrinally possible. If Purgatory is a state of being rather than a place, there is no real objection to the concept of a "haunting" by a human ghost. Moreover, the practice I mentioned above for "dealing" with ghostly hauntings is part of the experiential demonstration that "Purgatory" is as the doctrinal development has taught us.

And since the dogmatic teaching on Purgatory involves purification (which may also be said to involve chastisement for sin that is distinct from the punishment of the damned), then it is certainly possible, even perhaps probable, that human ghosts may attach to a place where they died or where something necessary for their purification must take place in a way not revealed to us. Certainly, that's been the experience of the Church over the centuries in any case. But merely the reality of its possibility in accord with the doctrine is all we can know on an abstract theological level. But not all theology is purely abstract.

This is why I say that, without a doctrine equivalent to "Purgatory" in its dogmatic sense, there is no Christian cosmology that can admit the existence of human ghosts & related hauntings. It's just not theologically possible, and the only other explanation is that it is all demonic activity.

Yet, the counterpoint to this is that demonic activity has a different goal & a consistent behavior quite distinct that what is seen by a human ghost; both in experience & from a theological perspective. Human ghosts do not communicate beyond seeking prayer for themselves; demons always attempt communication of any kind that may give them "rights" of access or otherwise lead a human astray from God. Human ghosts generally do not frighten in their attempt to be "noticed"; demonic activity always either begins with obvious fear or certainly escalates to it eventually. If a human ghost haunting an area "scares" a human occupant, it is not due to intention on the part of the ghost. Thus, there is no culpability as you suggested above. Moreover, most have reported experiences with undoubtedly human ghosts that are benign or, at most, oddities. That is quite the opposite of demonic infestation in all known cases. Furthermore, human ghosts have been seen to be attached to places where no great evil has occurred which can be discerned historically (e.g., their presence in active churches or monasteries); demons only infest places where evil or occult activity has taken place. They abhor churches and monasteries which are active (especially if the Eucharist is kept there), and do not infest them unless the place or the buildings become deserted and/or used for evil purposes. And that does happen with some Satanic cults that utilized abandoned churches.

These are all historical facts of Christian experience which have been abundantly documented over and over again. In order to maintain that all ghostly "hauntings" (which, nota bene, is simply meant here in the sense of attachment to a place; not the fearful sense usually meant in modern parlance) are demonic, one would have to posit a demon who literally does nothing evil while infesting a place. Ever. Which is not what demons do. Thus, we begin to approach a reductio ad absurdam regarding the experiential evidence.

It is, of course, certainly true and well-established that demons masquerade as dead humans or as ghosts to deceive the ignorant or attempt to establish access or "rights." Yet, that disguise is abandoned when the demon get what it desires, and often quickly becomes obviously malevolent. There is never any real malevolence in cases of human ghosts seeking prayer. At most, as I said, there is simply attempts to get attention. A demon could begin doing something similar (they often do, actually), but it would not cease at that. It would escalate beyond it to something evil, or an attempt at communication which does not involve asking for prayer. Moreover, a demon would not encourage anyone to pray in a godly fashion. It would be against the demon's nature to encourage any prayer. As Jesus might put it: "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand." (Mt. 12:25).

Hence, even in cases where we see demons attempting to pretend to be human spirits, it is vastly different than cases where it is clear a human ghost seeking prayer or supplications has been allowed by God to seek prayers from living Christians. This is part of why I can no longer personally hold the "only demonic" perspective as it ends up becoming an apagogical argument when presented with cases that the Church traditionally understands as purely human ghosts.

A good disussion though! I must get back to my studies now, but I am grateful for the good dialogue begun. Although, I certainly don't intend for this to merely become a debate about "Purgatory." Even in my treatment, it is more an excursus of distinction than anything else.

One resource you might find helpful are the books by Dr. Adam Blai, a clinical psychologist who helps assess claims of exorcism. He's also a church-decreed expert on religious demonology and exorcism ministry in the Pittsburgh diocese. He has participated in many exorcisms over a number of years, as well as assessed cases of human ghosts. He documents all of these, some of which he shares publicly (he's cautious out of a desire not to popularize demonolatry or the like). He takes a very scientific, experiential approach rather than just abstractly theorizing, and it is quite a breath of fresh air from drier, more systematic theological takes. The books are:

"Hauntings, Possessions, and Exorcisms" (2017), Emmaus Road publishers.
"The Exorcism Files: True Stories of Demonic Possession" (2022), Sophia Institute Press.

Anyway, back to my studies. Hopefully I can respond more tomorrow.

 

[BobRyan]

Part of the confusion may be that the dogma of Purgatory is rather distinct from the various doctrinal explanations and popular beliefs that accompanied it, especially in medieval times. Only rather recently have these typical formulations or catechetical explanations been dropped as merely speculative, despite having a long Western history. Like all doctrines, "Purgatory" developed from the Apostolic deposit to become more clear over time without changing its basic substance. Moreover, very little about the Last Things seems to have been revealed by the Apostles as the last revelatory agents until the Parousia. Thus, the most current and developed notion of Purgatory is more simple than the speculations of the past in the West (which, by the way, were the main reasons the Eastern Orthodox had objections to it until recently). The universal Catholic Catechism explains it simply as:

===
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. [...] 1032 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead...
==

These are really the only dogmatic points on Purgatory that are considered "de fide."

fine - what part of that involves haunting a house in Chicago and scaring the inhabitants?

Seems like the work of "Ghosts" is primarily some form of "sin" when you hear what they are doing. I don't see how adding "the guilt of even more sin" is God's purpose in that 1030 statement

it is possible (like demons and angels) for bodiless human spirits to "haunt" a place

If so - then they have location.
If so - then they are adding sin , not resolving it and it makes no sense for God to provide the "add more sin" environment for them to just keep on doing that. Nothing in the 1030 statement above says "God creates purgatory so the spirits of the dead can add more sin to their life of woe, to their pain and suffering still owed"

 

[Reader Antonius]

fine - what part of that involves haunting a house in Chicago and scaring the inhabitants?

Seems like the work of "Ghosts" is primarily some form of "sin" when you hear what they are doing. I don't see how adding "the guilt of even more sin" is God's purpose in that 1030 statement

Apologies for the late response. Actually, I addressed both of these points in my previous post as far as I can see, yet my words may have not been clear. Let me try again or explain a little further:

My point in bringing up the bare minimum of the dogma of "Purgatory" was not to circumscribe, but rather the opposite. The fact that so little was revealed to us by the Blessed Apostles – and Divine Revelation in general about the last things – means that there are areas that we either do not yet fully understand, or never will this side of the veil. The point is simply that the common teaching that the phenomenon of benign human spirits who "respond" to prayer (such that "hauntings" of this sort always respond to prayer for the dead & resolve) is perfectly acceptable as a possibility. Moreover, our experience of this over the centuries is precisely what makes this common teaching probable. The only way such an experience fits into Christian cosmology would be a basic understanding analogous to "Purgatory" that does not contradict the experience.

A second point can be made: I think the word "haunting" does more to obfuscate than clarify. This is because I am using the term in a way that does not carry the baggage of its usual meaning. Hence, another word more neutral may be useful.

But for these purposes however let me simply be clear: A human ghost "haunting" a place is entirely different in experience (and, ultimately, via theological explanation rooted in it) than an infestation of demon(s). A human ghost will not intentionally scare anyone. The kinds of "activity" that follow such human ghosts (and presumably only a minority permitted by God to do that activity) are purely benign. At worst, such activity is simply neutral. It has the quality of being "odd" more than frightening; and this, especially, when one understands the theology that helps to explain it. The vast majority that has been reported in 2,000 years (or even 1,500 years, if you prefer) are simple things like inexplicable knocks or odd sounds, occurrences that are puzzling or attention-grabbing, as involving the lights or doors in the original post. In a handful of cases, usually involving then-living saints (and thus perhaps more hagiographical), there are more visible & auditorial manifestations which are notable. But the purpose of even these is not to scare but to ask for prayer. They are never malevolent nor directed to getting a living human to communicate. God allows such activity only to help the "poor soul" as the West traditionally calls them in the so-called "Purgatorial" state. Nothing more is permitted, nor has ever been reported to boot.

The converse is also true: No demon will encourage or request a human to pray to the Most Holy Trinity, nor encourage a human engage in a work of mercy like praying for the dead. Moreover, no demon will stop at merely doing "odd" things in an infestation. They cannot help themselves but to escalate to doing malevolent things. A demon that wished to pretend being a poor soul so effectively as the experience reported of poor souls would be a demon unlike any we know or have encountered in both pre-Messianic & Church history. That is, a very useless, weak, pointless demon that acts totally contrary to its warped nature (hence the statement of Our Lord that Satan's house is not divided against itself). This also is part of the the interplay here between Judeo-Christian experience & abstract theological truths.

If so - then they have location.

To the contrary, this simply does not follow theologically, metaphysically, nor logically. Simply because a bodiless power and immaterial spirit can apparently "attach" itself to a place, it doesn't follow that they are locative beings inherently. It is exactly the same regarding the obvious ability, documented without question, of demons & angels being able to interact with the physical world. This ability does not give them material reality or physical nature either.

This is hard for us to grasp beyond the abstract because we are embodied beings that unite physical & spiritual into a single, rational nature (e.g., human-ness). In this we are unlike any known creature of God, hence we don't fully grasp either a purely material existence (like trees or dogs), nor a purely spiritual one either. The only exception would be human spirits separated from their body before the resurrection of the dead & the Parousia. And we know very little about that beyond basics. Dogmas regarding the last things are very scant; always have been. But reason clearly tells us that bodiless spirits have no materiality or inherent locality (even Aristotle understood this), and yet they manifest an ability to interact with the material world & can be associated with places. "How" is not precisely known to us, because it has not been revealed by God, nor can pure reason go beyond its natural limit here.

If so - then they are adding sin , not resolving it and it makes no sense for God to provide the "add more sin" environment for them to just keep on doing that. Nothing in the 1030 statement above says "God creates purgatory so the spirits of the dead can add more sin to their life of woe, to their pain and suffering still owed"

No, that is not the case as explained above. The only way I can perceive a human ghost causing fear would be due to the subjective disposition of the human(s) in question. That alone removes culpability, especially when we take into account that humans ghosts seeking prayer are only able to engage in this type of activity if permitted by Divine Providence. It does not happen at the discretion of the poor soul in "Purgatory." Even if a human ghost inadvertently causes a living human to feel fear, it is not at all the same kind of dread & terror that demons always end up manifesting when infesting a place. The two kinds of fear are virtually incomparable in quality. The difference, if you will, between being momentarily startled vs. deep, abiding horror.

And it has been documented by many that the "attention-seeking" behavior of human ghosts is much more often accompanied by a (sometimes strange) lack of fear. I can speak to that personally. I was not all concerned when I heard the banging on the window, nor the scraping in response to my prayer. Part of that is because I expected it, but part of it also is the phenomenon. I was not even startled, frankly, and this is somewhat typical (although certainly not a perfect constant). Similarly, all the reports involving that "haunted" room were not tales of fear, but rather simply odd or inexplicable things. A strangeness rooted in "this doesn't quite add up" as opposed to something fearful. In the case of that room, there were long periods of time in which no activity at all was reported; and that despite countless retreatants staying in that room for decades. This is another distinction from the demonic. They latter may begin small for a while, but it always leads to escalation. This was not the case with this "haunted" room for over forty years.

In that case alone, such a fact either indicates a human ghost that is a "poor soul" seeking prayer from a monastery, or an extremely non-credible sort of demon that is puny, unproductive, & indisposed towards diabolical activity against perfect targets (i.e., retreatants seeking God in prayer & silence). There are no other possible theological explanations that any form of orthodox Christianity can admit. The problem of course is that such a demon is an absurdity, hence we return to my point that failing to make a distinction ends up – ultimately – an apagogical proof that there a true difference. Yet, how can that be? So, we then must return to what I said at the beginning: some kind of doctrine of "Purgatory" is necessary for their to be human "ghosts" at all.

I think enough can be said here. We are going as far as we can before our variant perspectives simply become irreconcilable. Each of our Christian cosmologies here (which, frankly, are more alike than different) differ on the very hinge which makes a distinction possible: namely, a concept of some kind that is analogous to "Purgatory." Without that, there is no possible explanation other than all paranormal activity (unless angelic or Divinely engendered) is ultimately demonic. There cannot be any other explanation from that epistemological position. Yet, the experience of millennia is to the contrary, and quite consistently so. This begs the question of why that is the case. It reminds me of a quote of St. Augustine when discussing scientific, experiential knowledge with Divine Revelation; specifically the interpretation of Scripture & the Genesis account:

"Whatever they [non-Christians] can really demonstrate to be true of physical nature, we must show to be capable of reconciliation with our Scriptures; and whatever they assert in their treatises which is contrary to these Scriptures of ours, that is to Catholic Faith, we must either prove it as well as we can to be entirely false, or at all events we must, without the smallest hesitation, believe it to be so."

Perhaps that is good place to part, unless some other avenue of dialogue may appear.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

fine - what part of that (Statement about the doctrine on purgatory) involves haunting a house in Chicago and scaring the inhabitants?

Seems like the work of "Ghosts" is primarily some form of "sin" when you hear what they are doing. I don't see how adding "the guilt of even more sin" is God's purpose in that 1030 statement

Apologies for the late response. Actually, I addressed both of these points in my previous post as far as I can see, yet my words may have not been clear. Let me try again or explain a little further:

My point in bringing up the bare minimum of the dogma of "Purgatory" was not to circumscribe, but rather the opposite. The fact that so little was revealed to us by the Blessed Apostles – and Divine Revelation in general about the last things – means that there are areas that we either do not yet fully understand, or never will this side of the veil. The point is simply that the common teaching that the phenomenon of benign human spirits who "respond" to prayer (such that "hauntings" of this sort always respond to prayer for the dead & resolve) is perfectly acceptable as a possibility.

If the stories of ghosts haunting houses and scaring humans is cast as "benign human spirits" -- there is nothing in any scripture or doctrine on purgatory that predicts/supports/affirms/ such activity as being benign or something that we should expect.

In fact communion with the dead carried the death sentence in the OT.

As some point in your post - you seem to be saying that we don't have the evidence in scripture or in the statements on Purgatory to condone the claims - but you then say that this is simply a shortcoming of the amount of info they gave us.

Moreover, our experience of this over the centuries is precisely what makes this common teaching probable.

You are placing the weight of support for this idea of benign spirits of the dead haunting houses as a form of purgatory - on "experience" rather than scripture or any official statements about Purgatory. This may be why you predict that Protestants will find scripture to be in contradiction with your claims.

What is more scripture points to God calling for the death sentence on those who try to communicate with the spirits of the dead.

A second point can be made: I think the word "haunting" does more to obfuscate than clarify. This is because I am using the term in a way that does not carry the baggage of its usual meaning.

There are a lot of people who report the "experience" as in the sense of horrifying haunting - if your appeal is to "experience" on this point.

A human ghost "haunting" a place is entirely different in experience (and, ultimately, via theological explanation rooted in it) than an infestation of demon(s). A human ghost will not intentionally scare anyone.

All the while the spirits are claiming to be a human ghost/spirit you are saying we should reject that claim if they are in fact scaring people? So in that scenario you suggest we call them a demon even though they claim to be a human spirit?

(At least we agree on this one point - apparently)

The kinds of "activity" that follow such human ghosts (and presumably only a minority permitted by God to do that activity) are purely benign. At worst, such activity is simply neutral. It has the quality of being "odd" more than frightening;

So you seem to be sayng - we should put it into categories depending on how they come across to us?

Notice that when scripture calls for the death sentence for those that communicate with the dead - it is always independent of whether one claims that the dead person claiming to communicate with you is "nice" or "not". At least that is what we find in scripture.

John 11 describes the dead as "dormant" while dead.

1 Thess 4:13-18 calls them "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus", and "the dead in Christ".

Matt 22 Jesus claims that the dead saints have no relationship to God at all apart from the future resurrection when He says "God is not the God of the dead" as a key step to making His case for the future resurrection.

The only case in the Bible of someone claiming to talk to the dead (while dead) is in 1 Sam 28 and it requires a demon - a "familiar spirit" to create that illusion of communication with the dead.

 

[Reader Antonius]

Notice that when scripture calls for the death sentence for those that communicate with the dead - it is always independent of whether one claims that the dead person claiming to communicate with you is "nice" or "not". At least that is what we find in scripture.

Interesting. This appears to be one area where our cosmologies actually align (in theory anyway): the Biblical prohibition on necromancy. What is intriguing to me is that you have conflated mere "communication with the dead" as a type of broad category, when the Scriptures do not do so. In fact, the Scriptures are discussing something rather specific.

Put another way, you do not seem to distinguish between Biblical exegesis on necromancy and mere "communication" between living and dead (and even this you have broadly rather than specifically treated). Nevertheless, this is common mistake since the times of early Protestantism. Yet, it was never an issue for older forms of Christianity, nor for Second Temple Judaism (cf. 2 Maccabees); and with good reason. Even if we can't see eye to eye on the metaphysical and theological possibility of human ghosts, this is an issue easily solved by proper Biblical exegesis.

The most commonly cited example of the Biblical condemnation of necromancy is from the summarization of the Law in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (ESV-CE Trans.):

"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer (or "familiar spirit" – "v'Yid'oniy" – ידעני) or one who inquires of the dead ("v'Doreish 'el-Ha-Meitiym" – ודרש אל־המתים), for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you."

Take alone as proof-text, these (and other passages such as Ex. 22:18, Lv. 19:31; 20:27) can be misinterpreted narrowly to mean any kind of "communication" (if prayer is considered communicative by the reader), which is abominable and worthy of death. Yet, like all errors in proof-texting, this ignores the Hebrew and the exegetical context; not mention it flies in the face of both historic Biblical Judaism & Christianity. Which should be quite a clue something is awry.

What the Bible condemns in the Holy Torah, especially, but elsewhere as well is the practice of Necromancy. A common practice in ancient times & archaic paganism, necromancy is communication with the dead in order to obtain hidden or secret knowledge beyond our ordinary human faculties, whether about the future or current events. It's not mere communication with the dead, it is rather the art of divining things (usually fortune or the future) through alleged communication with the dead.

This is made clear in the context which, in all cases as far as I'm aware, connects necromancy with prohibitions on similar archaic pagan & animist practices of the ancient Canaanites involving the same kind of idolatry: "divination," seeking a "medium," a "sorcerer," a "wizard", etc. All of these were practices which the Canaanites did that God commands the Israelites, and later Christians (in the context of Greco-Roman & Semitic polytheism in the 1st century), not to do. As is clarified in v. 12b, the practice's referent is the Bronze-Age Canaanite practice specifically; which, of course, has similarities in many modern false religions & the occult. Necromancy therefore is not a general category involving mere communication between living and dead, but rather an attempt to gain knowledge without and against God and through, ultimately, idolatrous practices and intent.

This is the sin as defined by the Bible: the idolatry and lack of trust in God as the Lord of Israel and the Church. Confirmation of this is especially found in the Deuteronomic passage, as the quoted portion above is followed in v.15:

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers – it is to him you shall listen..."

Not only is this a prophecy of Christ, it is also provides the hermeneutical distinction behind what the sin of necromancy consists. Namely, the going after of mediums, of spiritualism, and sorcery. This is why we have a particular term for it: Necromancy (from the Greek: "νεκρομᾰντείᾱ" meaning, literally, "corpse divination"), which translates the original Hebrew (as I cited in v. 11 above): "v'Doreish 'el-Ha-Meitim" (ודרש אל־המתים). This phrase consists primarily of the active word "doreish" which comes from the root word "darash" (דרש), a verb meaning to resort to or to seek out or to consult the dead. The verb root, "darash" is used many times in reference to the orthodox worship of the Lord, or seeking out His oracles. Hence, it is clearly referring to "resorting to/seeking out/inquiring/consulting" the dead in an idolatrous manner by way of converse. In fact, it cannot be made to be a categorical rejection of communication between living and dead without contradicting sound exegesis by way of proving too much. To wit, how are we to understand the appearance of St. Moses the Prophet (who clearly died, cf. Dt. 34) to Our Lord, speaking to Him, on Mt. Tabor at the Holy Transfiguration? Christ is a Divine Person, yet with a human nature that is born "under the Law" as St. Paul teaches explicitly (Gal. 4:4). If we assume communication with the dead is forbidden categorically, then Jesus has violated the Law of God. Which is absurd and impossible. This – among many other reasons that could be argued – is why the commandment is against Necromancy, not mere communication.

Praying for a human soul in purification of some kind is a far cry from the Biblical definition. There is no idolatrous ritual or intent, no pagan practice or effort, no attempt to carry on an extended two-way conversation to learn otherworldly knowledge or soothsaying apart from God. This is part of why only a doctrine of Purgatory as the theological basis for human "ghost" manifesting in our living experience is wholly necessary. Only this would provide the theological context to distinguish this clearly from "Doreish-ing the dead," if you'll pardon the phrase. For the human "ghost," if it manifests, is already part of the Church and in the hand of God (Wis. 3:1-9). The "request" for prayer, such as it is, is limited to simply that. Likewise, the questioning whether prayer is needed. And even the latter is not a rule set in stone. If one prefers, one can simply pray for the dead in an area of presumed human "ghost" activity. Neither violates the commandment as defined by Scripture. As well as Tradition, for that matter. This is reflected in the Old Catholic Encyclopedia article on "Necromancy" by Charles Dubray in A.D. 1911:

"The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results. [...] [R]eal facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians...as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition."

This view is far more in keeping with sound Biblical exegesis of the Holy Torah than a categorical rejection of "communication." Hence, your simply repeating it is not to any effect, since your use of it is based in something either eisegetical or simply erroneous.

John 11 describes the dead as "dormant" while dead.

1 Thess 4:13-18 calls them "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus", and "the dead in Christ".

So you are an adherent of "soul sleep"? This is quite un-Biblical (although here is not the place to debate that, nor do I have the time, sadly), and contradicts historic Christianity from the very beginning by a wide margin. Few Patristic authors held such an idea, and it dwindled to virtually nothing by the Nicene era. Not to mention contemporary Catholic, Eastern, Oriental, Assyrian, & most Protestant confessions! If you believe in "soul sleep" or an analogous doctrine, there is yet another cosmological difference (I would say "error," given the departure of it from Scripture & at least 1,500 years of historic Christianity). That, much moreso than the idea of Purgatory, doesn't allow for any other explanation of human ghosts than demonic activity.

Indeed, if you hold to an idea of Christian mortalism that involves a rejection of the particular judgement after death, then I must retract my assumption that our Christian epistemologies are more akin than different. Christian mortalism is to orthodox Christian eschatology regarding death before the Parousia as Semi-Arianism is to Nicene-Constantinopolitan Christology. It is a massive rupture, and colors many different interconnected doctrines (as has been shown here). This further leads me to believe that we have reached the point where our epistemological positions are not reconcilable, making further debate on this point rather moot.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting. This appears to be one area where our cosmologies actually align (in theory anyway): the Biblical prohibition on necromancy. What is intriguing to me is that you have conflated mere "communication with the dead" as a type of broad category, when the Scriptures do not do so. In fact, the Scriptures are discussing something rather specific.

Let's look at the specifics.

Put another way, you do not seem to distinguish between Biblical exegesis on necromancy and mere "communication" between living and dead (and even this you have broadly rather than specifically treated). Nevertheless, this is common mistake since the times of early Protestantism.

Let's see the details about what the Bible says on that point.

Is 8:19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?

The clear meaning in that text - with full exegesis is that the implied answer is "absolutely not! full stop". In fact it uses your same phrase and says "no, do not do that".

Lev 20:27 - “Men and women among you who act as mediums or who consult the spirits of the dead must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense.

In 1 Sam 28 - king Saul is attempting to contact someone that we would call a saint.. The king wants to contact the dead prophet Samuel. In the text it is made very clear that anyone doing that is to be put to death. Saul does not dispute that this is the law - but he offers to not enforce it in this case. To set God's Law aside.


Is 8: 20 To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn

Yet, it was never an issue for older forms of Christianity, nor for Second Temple Judaism (cf. 2 Maccabees);

2 Maccabees does not talk about talking do the dead other than to point to Jews that died for communicating with false gods.

The most commonly cited example of the Biblical condemnation of necromancy is from the summarization of the Law in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (ESV-CE Trans.):

"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer (or "familiar spirit" – "v'Yid'oniy" – ידעני) or one who inquires of the dead ("v'Doreish 'el-Ha-Meitiym" – ודרש אל־המתים), for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you."

Deut 18:10-12 deals with "inquiring" of the dead -- asking them something.
Lev 20:27 speaks of consulting them for anything whatsoever
1 Sam 28 shows that the only way they knew/supposed to reach them in that endeavor - was to contact them was through a demon spirit "a familiar spirit". Saul specifically asks for a witch who had a demon spirit so they could get in contact with Samuel.

A common practice in ancient times & archaic paganism, necromancy is communication with the dead in order to obtain hidden or secret knowledge beyond our ordinary human faculties, whether about the future or current events.

The text does not get into "what kind of request" - it hits right at the communication itself.

Deut 18:
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, a soothsayer, one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who consults the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God is going to drive them out before you.

The text does not get into "consults them for things like topic-A is ok but not for topic-B"

It's not mere communication with the dead

Is 8:19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?

Necromancy therefore is not a general category involving mere communication between living and dead

It involves "consulting the dead on behalf of the living" as we see in Is 8:19

This phrase consists primarily of the active word "doreish" which comes from the root word "darash" (דרש), a verb meaning to resort to or to seek out or to consult the dead. The verb root, "darash" is used many times in reference to the orthodox worship of the Lord, or seeking out His oracles. Hence, it is clearly referring to "resorting to/seeking out/inquiring/consulting" the dead

No doubt as even Isaiah 8 points out God is to be consulted, but the dead are not.

We can ask God anything - we cannot ask the dead anything.

In fact, it cannot be made to be a categorical rejection of communication between living and dead without contradicting sound exegesis by way of proving too much. To wit, how are we to understand the appearance of St. Moses the Prophet (who clearly died, cf. Dt. 34) to Our Lord, speaking to Him, on Mt. Tabor at the Holy Transfiguration?

In Jude 1 we see a quote from the pseudapigraphal book "The Assumption of Moses". This allows for us to conclude that Moses was at some point bodily resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven which means we cannot dogmatically say that Moses was dead at the time of the Matt 17 incident on the mount of transfiguration.

Christ is a Divine Person, yet with a human nature that is born "under the Law" as St. Paul teaches explicitly (Gal. 4:4). If we assume communication with the dead is forbidden categorically, then Jesus has violated the Law of God.

That would only be an inference on our part that required that we ignore the special case of Moses in Jude 1 where scripture leans toward the teaching that prior to Matt 17 Moses was in fact bodily assumed into heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

John 11 describes the dead as "dormant" while dead.

1 Thess 4:13-18 calls them "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus", and "the dead in Christ".

John 11:​

4 “This sickness is not meant for death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.” 5 (Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister, and Lazarus.) 6 So when He heard that he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where He was. 7 Then after this He *said to the disciples, “Let’s go to Judea again.” 8 The disciples *said to Him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone You, and yet You are going there again?” 9 Jesus replied, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks during the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if anyone walks during the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died,​

​

1 Thess 4:​

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.​

So you are an adherent of "soul sleep"? This is quite un-Biblical

Any time someone responds to the mere quote of the Bible by saying "it is unbiblical" -- a lot of readers begin to question the logic in such a response.

If you believe in "soul sleep" or an analogous doctrine, there is yet another cosmological difference (I would say "error," given the departure of it from Scripture

you keep calling the reference to scripture "a departure from scripture" and "unbiblical" as if that sort of response is compelling when addressing texts that do not make your case.

Indeed, if you hold to an idea of Christian mortalism that involves a rejection of the particular judgement after death, then I must retract my assumption that our Christian epistemologies are more akin than different

Heb 9 says "it is appointed to man once to die and then comes the judgment".

The Bible statements in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and in John 11 do not reject God's ability to "judge the cases of the dead". John says this happens when the temple of God is opened and the ark of the covenant is brought into the work being done there.

Rev 11:​

“We give You thanks, Lord God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”​

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple,​

The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5
And that is why in Matt 22 - Jesus said "God is not the God of the dead" when making His iron clad "proof" for the future resurrection in direct debate Sadducees who were dead set on opposing Him. He gives them "proof" that even the Pharisees admit in that text - "put the Sadducees to silence". The logic Christ uses there is iron clad. (even if you call all these texts "unbiblical")

Matt 10:28 says that we are not to "fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell"​

The dormant state is taught clearly in what you appear to call the "unscriptural" and "unbiblical" texts of 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11. But the soul is not dead in that case - it is merely in the state described in those chapters of scripture.