Chief end of man

[Hammster]

I know it is very difficult for people to humbly accept God pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness and might prefer to think of themselves as not being responsible for their sins and thus not in need of real forgiveness, but the only way we can live with the fact we hurt others, God, Jesus and ourselves in the past, is by humbly accepting God's forgiveness and thus have this huge Love (Luke 7).

There are two options. Either we are responsible for the effects of our sin, and we accept the punishment. Or, Jesus takes the responsibility for the effects of our sin and takes the punishment.

 

[bling]

There are two options. Either we are responsible for the effects of our sin, and we accept the punishment. Or, Jesus takes the responsibility for the effects of our sin and takes the punishment.

Now you are talking about "the effect of our sin" and not as you stated in post 163, " you aren’t responsible for your sin".
Even though the Greek word for discipline and punishment can be the same, today we are told to never punish our children, but discipline them, which are not the same.

Think about this story I wrote:

There is a, one of a kind, Ming vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair discipline?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the miracle worker waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the Ming vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Ming vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

 

[fhansen]

I’ll assume that the individuals are regenerated. With that in mind, no they aren’t as close. But God will discipline them.

So sin matters? I mean, God will see to it that they're purified before death? Or could they presumably die in persistent unrepented sin and still inherit life?

 

[fhansen]

Sounds reformed.

Ok, but that would mean that righteousness is not only declared of or imputed to a justified person-but actually given to them as well.

 

[fhansen]

Justification and righteousness are the same thing.

Yes, to become righteous is to be made just, given the gift of righteousness.

 

[Hammster]

Now you are talking about "the effect of our sin" and not as you stated in post 163, " you aren’t responsible for your sin".

I know. I realized that I wasn’t being as clear as I could be.

Even though the Greek word for discipline and punishment can be the same, today we are told to never punish our children, but discipline them, which are not the same.

I’m not seeing that they are the same, or are they used interchangeably in scripture.

Think about this story I wrote:

There is a, one of a kind, Ming vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair discipline?

The Father owned the vase. So he took responsibility for the damage.

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Separate issue from above, but the there was not restitution made, and I don’t know about reconciliation because it’s not mentioned.

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

That’s up to him. Maybe in this rabbit trail, the father is wicked.

Suppose Jesus the miracle worker waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Depends on my father.

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Using your story? Beats me because you jumped all over.

Suppose it is not you that breaks the Ming vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Ming vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

Justice was served.

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

It doesn’t because the punishment was just, E-banned the discipline was unjust.

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

I don’t know. I didn’t write the story.

 

[Hammster]

So sin matters? I mean, God will see to it that they're purified before death? Or could they presumably die in persistent unrepented sin and still inherit life?

They don’t need to be purified before death because Christ’s righteousness was credited to them.

 

[Hammster]

Ok, but that would mean that righteousness is not only declared of or imputed to a justified person-but actually given to them as well.

Not really. Righteousness is imputed. Then sanctification happens. Separate issues.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, to become righteous is to be made just, given the gift of righteousness.

No, being credited with righteousness, as Romans 4 says.

 

[bling]

I’m not seeing that they are the same, or are they used interchangeably in scripture.

There are like 29 Greek word that can be translated “punishment”, but In the New Testament, the Greek word παιδεύω, paideuo occurs 13 times with a variety of translations into the English including punish (Luke 23:16; 1 Cor. 11:32; 1 Tim. 1:20; Heb. 12:6-7; Rev. 3:19), correct (2 Tim. 2:25), and instruct (Acts 7:22; 22:3; Titus 2:12). This is important in the context of annihilation and eternal conscious torment in that it exemplifies conscious punishment. This does not necessitate that all punishment is conscious (annihilationists say eternal punishment is nonexistence), but it is valuable in that it displays that God’s inspired word designates paideuo is something that is always experienced by someone.

Correction

2 Tim. 2:25, correcting those in opposition

Instruction

Acts 7:22, Moses was educated in the learning of the Egyptians

Acts 22:3, Paul was educated under Gamaliel

Titus 2:12, instructing us to deny ungodliness

Punishment experienced while alive

Luke 23:16, 22, punished and then released

1 Cor. 11:32, we are disciplined by the Lord

2 Cor. 6:9 punished yet not put to death

1 Tim. 1:20, top not to blaspheme

Heb. 12:6, 7, God disciplines those whom he loves

Heb. 12:10, disciplined by earthly fathers

Rev. 3:19, the Lord disciplines those whom he loves

The Father owned the vase. So he took responsibility for the damage.

So, the father is responsible for the damage because he did not keep the vase under lock and key?

Do you think after all this the son feels the damaged vase on the mantel is his father’s responsibility?

He forgave and disciplined the son, but he did not take responsibility for the damage the son caused.

The vase is still damage and worthless as far as a dollar value. The vase now stands in remembrance of what happened, both the sin and the Loving reconciliation.

Separate issue from above, but the there was not restitution made, and I don’t know about reconciliation because it’s not mentioned.

No, “Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love”, that is reconciliation.

That’s up to him. Maybe in this rabbit trail, the father is wicked.

Is the “him” you or the father?

Depends on my father.

Would it change you from the way you were when you smashed the vase?

Using your story? Beats me because you jumped all over.

The list of benefits to Loving humbly accepted discipline, you can google the answer, but I was looking for your thoughts.

It doesn’t because the punishment was just, E-banned the discipline was unjust.

WOW, I see the discipline as being fully just when humbly correctly accepted.

I don’t know. I didn’t write the story.

The story tells us the neighbor refused.

 

[Hammster]

There are like 29 Greek word that can be translated “punishment”, but In the New Testament, the Greek word παιδεύω, paideuo occurs 13 times with a variety of translations into the English including punish (Luke 23:16; 1 Cor. 11:32; 1 Tim. 1:20; Heb. 12:6-7; Rev. 3:19), correct (2 Tim. 2:25), and instruct (Acts 7:22; 22:3; Titus 2:12). This is important in the context of annihilation and eternal conscious torment in that it exemplifies conscious punishment. This does not necessitate that all punishment is conscious (annihilationists say eternal punishment is nonexistence), but it is valuable in that it displays that God’s inspired word designates paideuo is something that is always experienced by someone.

Correction

2 Tim. 2:25, correcting those in opposition

Instruction

Acts 7:22, Moses was educated in the learning of the Egyptians

Acts 22:3, Paul was educated under Gamaliel

Titus 2:12, instructing us to deny ungodliness

Punishment experienced while alive

Luke 23:16, 22, punished and then released

1 Cor. 11:32, we are disciplined by the Lord

2 Cor. 6:9 punished yet not put to death

1 Tim. 1:20, top not to blaspheme

Heb. 12:6, 7, God disciplines those whom he loves

Heb. 12:10, disciplined by earthly fathers

Rev. 3:19, the Lord disciplines those whom he loves

So, the father is responsible for the damage because he did not keep the vase under lock and key?

Do you think after all this the son feels the damaged vase on the mantel is his father’s responsibility?

He forgave and disciplined the son, but he did not take responsibility for the damage the son caused.

The vase is still damage and worthless as far as a dollar value. The vase now stands in remembrance of what happened, both the sin and the Loving reconciliation.

No, “Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love”, that is reconciliation.

Is the “him” you or the father?

Would it change you from the way you were when you smashed the vase?

The list of benefits to Loving humbly accepted discipline, you can google the answer, but I was looking for your thoughts.

WOW, I see the discipline as being fully just when humbly correctly accepted.

The story tells us the neighbor refused.

Since you won’t actually engage with my responses, I’m done here.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed at OP request.​