Controversy surrounds US decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine

[ThatRobGuy]

Controversy surrounds US decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine

The Biden administration approved the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine on Friday, sparking concern from human rights groups and some congressional lawmakers over the weapon’s ability …

thehill.com

The Biden administration approved the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine on Friday, sparking concern from human rights groups and some congressional lawmakers over the weapon’s ability to harm civilians and children long after the bombs have fallen.

Cluster munitions are dropped by aircraft or fired by a ground-based weapons system over a target area, spreading out a few dozen to hundreds of submunitions. The weapons are valued militarily because they can strike multiple targets.


But the weapons are banned by more than 100 countries because the submunitions spread out imprecisely, often fail to detonate and remain as explosive hazards for decades.

Washington’s green light to deliver the cluster munitions to Kyiv comes as Ukrainian forces are expending high rates of ammunition and are making slow progress in the counteroffensive that began last month.

Alternate link from CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/07/europe/cluster-munitions-us-ukraine-aid-explainer-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

And a follow up from the White House

Biden defends sending cluster munitions to Ukraine

President Biden on Friday defended the decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine, saying the Ukrainians needed them. “It was a very difficult decision on my part. And by the way, I discussed th…

thehill.com

 

[timothyu]

Remember 500 days ago when the US networks were bemoaning Russia's use of cluster bombs on Ukraine. How profit can change tunes.

 

[That Guy 11200]

Remember 500 days ago when the US networks were bemoaning Russia's use of cluster bombs on Ukraine. How profit can change tunes.

One of the main arguments against cluster munitions is that they leave unexploded bomblets, which are a threat to civilians for years into the future. But, as you point out, Russia are already using them in Ukraine. The genie is already out of the bottle.

 

[Nithavela]

Neither the USA, Russia nor Ukraine have signed the Convention on Cluster Munition, so any complaints are and were pointless. Those countries haven't forbidden the use of those weapons, so any use by and against them is fair play.

 

[Astrid]

Remember 500 days ago when the US networks were bemoaning Russia's use of cluster bombs on Ukraine. How profit can change tunes.

How desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[Astrid]

Neither the USA, Russia nor Ukraine have signed the Convention on Cluster Munition, so any complaints are and were pointless. Those countries haven't forbidden the use of those weapons, so any use by and against them is fair play.

ANYTHING is fair play if someone is trying to kill you.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Remember 500 days ago when the US networks were bemoaning Russia's use of cluster bombs on Ukraine. How profit can change tunes.

Sounds like the decision was, at least in part, due to us running low on our own munition supply that we're feeding the Ukrainians with.

“This is a war relating to munitions. And they’re running out of that ammunition, and we’re low on it,” Biden told CNN.


If this is, in fact, the case:
At least 38 human rights organizations have publicly opposed the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine, where the weapons have already been used in the war to devastating effect.

...there has to be at least some sort of reason why that many human rights organizations (assuming most of them sympathetic to Ukraine in that conflict) would oppose providing this specific type of assistance.


These kinds of proxy wars are nasty business, and if something goes south regarding these cluster bombs in the future, I suspect we'll be the ones held accountable.

 

[Fantine]

Cluster bombs can have up to 40% of unexploded bomblets imperiling civilians in the future.

The ones we are sending have 1.5 to 2.5%. This is still unacceptable, of course.

The Ukrainians are begging for these weapons.

If we had a crystal ball we could predict whether these bombs would ultimately save many lives.

My gut feeling is that Putin is fighting until the 2024 election is over, figuring if his candidate wins he can swoop in and take Ukraine on1/21/25. May that never happen.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Cluster bombs can have up to 40% of unexploded bomblets imperiling civilians in the future.

The ones we are sending have 1.5 to 2.5%. This is still unacceptable, of course.

The Ukrainians are begging for these weapons.

If we had a crystal ball we could predict whether these bombs would ultimately save many lives.

My gut feeling is that Putin is fighting until the 2024 election is over, figuring if his candidate wins he can swoop in and take Ukraine on1/21/25. May that never happen.

I wouldn't count on a US election having much impact on that situation.

It should be pointed out, that Putin waited until his "preferred US president" left office before getting froggy. And Crimea was annexed during Obama's tenure.

Even if the US stopped funneling cash and weapons to Ukraine, there's still a lot of other countries out there that would gladly step up. And that's not even factoring in the fact that the defense contractors (who are raking in the $$$ from this war), pull the strings with the candidates on both sides. The "Big 3" defense contractor companies made $1.7 billion just off of the last round of Ukrainian aid.

They're not going to part with those kinds of profits easily.

Even during Trump's presidency (when he was hesitant to get involved), he still ended up sending hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, and 210 Javelin anti-tank missiles and 37 launchers (as well as $30 million in other various weapons) to assist the Ukrainians in the Crimea region.

The defense contractor lobby has a way of being rather "persuasive" and a way of making life difficult if presidents don't "play ball" so to speak.

I guess that's the perk of heavily funding key players in the house and senate on both sides of the aisle...no matter what party the president is in, they can always scrounge up a few cronies on the opposing side to make life miserable for them.

 

[timothyu]

How desperate times call for desperate measures.

Yes, the military-industrial complex is falling behind profit wise

 

[timothyu]

Sounds like the decision was, at least in part, due to us running low on our own munition supply that we're feeding the Ukrainians with.

How convenient for the military-industrial complex.

 

[Astrid]

Cluster bombs can have up to 40% of unexploded bomblets imperiling civilians in the future.

The ones we are sending have 1.5 to 2.5%. This is still unacceptable, of course.

The Ukrainians are begging for these weapons.

If we had a crystal ball we could predict whether these bombs would ultimately save many lives.

My gut feeling is that Putin is fighting until the 2024 election is over, figuring if his candidate wins he can swoop in and take Ukraine on1/21/25. May that never happen.

WW1 and WW2 artillery shells and bombs
still kill people in Europe

Yes, the military-industrial complex is falling behind profit wise

Ideology is so boring

 

[ThatRobGuy]

So the vibe I'm getting from some (as well some of the people in the media and Washington trying to justify this move)
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with cluster munitions is a good guy with cluster munitions"

If memory serves, that particular rationale hasn't always been quite as popular in those circles with regards to weapons...in fact, that talking point was often portrayed as a laughing stock.

 

[timothyu]

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with cluster munitions is a good guy with cluster munitions"

Kind of like the human notion that we can overcome the deeds of enemies by acting in the same way. (a point often missed by those who don't understand the concept of loving all as self- using a way contrary to the default ways of man)

 

[Hans Blaster]

How convenient for the military-industrial complex.

Not sure how the "MIC" benefits from the US shipping munitions (M864 rounds) that aren't being produced and aren't being put back into production to Ukraine.

 

[Astrid]

Not sure how the "MIC" benefits from the US shipping munitions (M864 rounds) that aren't being produced and aren't being put back into production to Ukraine.

Something about a virtue- signal industrial complex.

VSIC

 

[Hans Blaster]

Something about a virtue- signal industrial complex.

VSIC

I've seen a lot of them with this cluster munitions business. Whip up big concerns about post-conflict civilian dangers of failed bomblets that will be fired into fields and forests already soaked in mines, duds, and abandoned armaments of all kinds.

 

[timothyu]

Future political rallies should be held in these areas and suppliers should be forced to vacation there.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Future political rallies should be held in these areas and suppliers should be forced to vacation there.

Is this supposed to make sense? 'Cause it don't.

 

[IceJad]

Controversy surrounds US decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine

The Biden administration approved the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine on Friday, sparking concern from human rights groups and some congressional lawmakers over the weapon’s ability …

thehill.com

The Biden administration approved the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine on Friday, sparking concern from human rights groups and some congressional lawmakers over the weapon’s ability to harm civilians and children long after the bombs have fallen.

Cluster munitions are dropped by aircraft or fired by a ground-based weapons system over a target area, spreading out a few dozen to hundreds of submunitions. The weapons are valued militarily because they can strike multiple targets.


But the weapons are banned by more than 100 countries because the submunitions spread out imprecisely, often fail to detonate and remain as explosive hazards for decades.

Washington’s green light to deliver the cluster munitions to Kyiv comes as Ukrainian forces are expending high rates of ammunition and are making slow progress in the counteroffensive that began last month.

Alternate link from CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/07/europe/cluster-munitions-us-ukraine-aid-explainer-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

And a follow up from the White House

Biden defends sending cluster munitions to Ukraine

President Biden on Friday defended the decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine, saying the Ukrainians needed them. “It was a very difficult decision on my part. And by the way, I discussed th…

thehill.com

This will come back to bite the US. But I doubt Brandon cared enough, not like the US is a participant in the Wellington Declaration (same as Russia and Ukraine). The nature of the bombs ensure that even in victory it will take you decades to clean up the remnants. If they don't already accidently kill innocent people in its initial deployment.

I know Ukraine is desperate, I want Ukraine to win but there are some threshold once crossed is irreversible. I'm no war expert and it is not my country being invaded so I have no moral right to say what the Ukrainians can or can't do. I sincerely hope that everyone will accept whatever outcome this might bring.

If the Ukrainians use cluster bombs so will the Russians. This will give the Russia an air of legitimacy in responding with crueler weapons. Not that it will stop the Russians if they think their defeat is close. But the optics will be blurred by the propaganda laced with truths.

Wars make noble men ignoble and evil men crueler.