Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[Gary K]

I don't remember the time or thread title. I haven't spent a lot of time there. Why go and do things that are clearly against the rules?

It's kind of like speeding in a car. Maybe you do it 100 times, and no one seems to care. Then you're surprised one day when you actually get a ticket

"In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against this group's theology."

Statement of Faith - Traditional Adventists Statement of Faith

Traditional Adventists Statement of Purpose A forum to discuss and fellowship together. A few things to know about Seventh-day Adventists: The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony...

www.christianforums.com

Why the resistance to talking about SDA things in a place designed to examine them critically?

I have no problem moving our discussion there. That was where I suggested moving it. I just see no no need to derail another thread by inserting an ongoing discussion which will probably go on for some time.

As I understand forum rules for every denomination specific forum have the same rule. This isn't SDAs being unwilling to discuss our beliefs with those who disagree with us. Like I have said before there will not be a a problem as long as the discussion is respectful as it is now. I've seen quite a few discussions there over the years started by non SDAs questioning our beliefs and not a one was ever removed or anyone punished that I know of as long as it was done respectully. In fact there is an existing one started by what appears to be a non Christian that several of us have participated in that is about the Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

Nowhere that I can remember. Personal attacks are against forum rules. But they are not always un-loving therefore un-Christian. Sometimes they are warranted and need stated. And sometimes what is perceived as an attack isn't. But they are against forum rules. So if we do we must suffer the consequences.

I don't really understand your point. If I reprove someone for their behavior and it is justified how is that a personal attack?

 

[Gary K]

I find this post really disappointing for a few reasons. You seem to be condemning 22 million people that you claim drifted away from its first love with Jesus is judging 22 million people that you do not know. Only Jesus knows the hearts of all people so we need to leave the judging with Christ. The second reason this is disappointing is you claim to be representing the SDA church yet, you seem to condemn it more than support. I already offered a link to the official beliefs, because I have seen too many people who claim to be SDA, but yet have their own doctrine, which essentially makes one a false witness. What separates denominations is doctrine and personally I would not be associated with a denomination if I thought it drifted away from loving Jesus, what would that say about me. My experience for the most part in the SDA church has been finding loving people who love Jesus and seek Him fully and seek His Truth. Are there bad apples in every denomination and in every congregation, yes, we are warned those who claim to be part of our organization will do the most harm.

I also disagree that the SDA church doesn't teach righteousness by faith. Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

This is just one pastor but do a search on righteousness by faith and you will find 10 pages of various sermons.

Site Search | Amazing Facts

Having trouble finding something on our site? The best place to start is right here are the site search page ...

www.amazingfacts.org

Another from YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=righteousness+by+faith+seventh+day+adventist

From the Official Adventist Sabbath School study

Lesson 4

How Do We Experience Salvation in Christ?

Salvation isn’t earned, it’s received. The Bible shows how God reaches us with grace and transforms our lives.

www.adventist.org

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; Isa. 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)

I disagree with your premise that the church follows RxF. Here is my main argument. If we didn't reject RxF and drift away from our first love for Jesus why are we still here? Ellen White told us Jesus could have come before her death, twice, if the church as a whole would have loved Jesus with all our heart, soul and mind. Here we are well over a hundred years after she told us this still on planet earth living on a planet dedicated to sin.

It isn't a cold heartless judgment on my part but the reading of the evidence. I know of entire SDA churches, large ones, that don't even live by our standards and have gone woke and teach emerging church heresy. Our institutions of higher learning have in large part stopped teaching our Biblical theology too. Our small local church has an elder that is a socialist which political ideology is anti god at its very heart and our pastor is a speaker at Project One events. We have conferences that have banned Doug Batchelor from speaking in them and our GC president refuses to support religious liberty in that he refuses to support members who chose not to get vaccinated. We also have conferences that have fired every pastor who would not get vaccinated. Somehow I thought our bodies are the temple of God not the government's. What is wrong in trusting in God's promises such as Psalm 91 rather than trusting in man and his ideas? When our GC president and entire conferences have that little trust in God our church is in serious trouble spiritually.

 

[Gary K]

Only if that's what's being done. Is this a situation where you talked about you personally looking up some scripture, and I was viewing it as a corporate thing, so when I talk about it, it seems to you that I'm attacking you personally?

Sorry. I misread your post the first time. I do not think you attacked me personally. It just seemed to me that we had come to some sort of understanding about the new covenant and then you suddenly seemed to reverse your position again. It confused me and made me wonder what you were up to.

 

[Gary K]

It wouldn't be off topic. That thread is about Ellen White's writings

Sorry but I simply don't understand your comment. Where have I or other SDAs brought up Ellen White in this thread? It's as if you believe that everything SDAs believe is beaten into our heads through brainwashing. Ellen White is not the foundation for SDA beliefs.

I grew up in a disfunctional SDA family and was abused badly. My dad misunderstood some things she wrote because he never learned to speak English until he started school and because he only had an 8th grade education. If anyone has a reason to reject her writings, I do. I don't because I have studied the doctrines out from scripture and have never found her writings to not be scriptural.

 

[Gary K]

I have read it. Jehoshaphat is the king of Judah, Ahab is the king of Israel.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Kings 22:29 - New American Standard Bible

Defeat and Death of Ahab - So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah went up against Ramoth-gilead.

www.biblegateway.com

Then why the comment asking me if I was sure what was in the chapter as relates to Ahab and Jehoshaphat?

 

[Leaf473]

I have no problem moving our discussion there. That was where I suggested moving it. I just see no no need to derail another thread by inserting an ongoing discussion which will probably go on for some time.

As I understand forum rules for every denomination specific forum have the same rule. This isn't SDAs being unwilling to discuss our beliefs with those who disagree with us. Like I have said before there will not be a a problem as long as the discussion is respectful as it is now. I've seen quite a few discussions there over the years started by non SDAs questioning our beliefs and not a one was ever removed or anyone punished that I know of as long as it was done respectully. In fact there is an existing one started by what appears to be a non Christian that several of us have participated in that is about the Sabbath.

Okay... Are we both on the same page that the traditional Adventist section is not part of the denomination specific section? That's why you can critically examine adventism in the DST, but not in the traditional adventism section? At least, that's how I remember it

What is it that we wanted to discuss about SDA beliefs? I don't remember anymore

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry but I simply don't understand your comment. Where have I or other SDAs brought up Ellen White in this thread? It's as if you believe that everything SDAs believe is beaten into our heads through brainwashing. Ellen White is not the foundation for SDA beliefs.

I grew up in a disfunctional SDA family and was abused badly. My dad misunderstood some things she wrote because he never learned to speak English until he started school and because he only had an 8th grade education. If anyone has a reason to reject her writings, I do. I don't because I have studied the doctrines out from scripture and have never found her writings to not be scriptural.

Well, because generally speaking, in discussions about adventism Ellen White is likely to come up sooner or later. So, we could resolve the level of inspiration of her writings in that thread. It would probably give us a good springboard to move on

 

[Leaf473]

Then why the comment asking me if I was sure what was in the chapter as relates to Ahab and Jehoshaphat?

If I remember right, it's because you had called Jehoshaphat the king of Israel. Once the kingdom divided, the northern kingdom is referred to as Israel and the southern as Judah. No, not exclusively, but generally speaking when it comes to the names of the kings. So Jehoshaphat is called the king of Judah.

You also brought up the part about 186,000 Assyrians being slain in Jehoshaphat's days. I'm pretty sure it was Hezekiah.

That's why I was asking you if you were sure about those things. Maybe you were aware of a passage I didn't know about

 

[Servus]

Sorry. I misread your post the first time. I do not think you attacked me personally. It just seemed to me that we had come to some sort of understanding about the new covenant and then you suddenly seemed to reverse your position again. It confused me and made me wonder what you were up to.

I'm used to debating SDA theology a certain way with certain people.

 

[Servus]

Sorry but I simply don't understand your comment. Where have I or other SDAs brought up Ellen White in this thread? It's as if you believe that everything SDAs believe is beaten into our heads through brainwashing. Ellen White is not the foundation for SDA beliefs.

SDA members here I talk to thoroughly avoid bringing up EGW, but her writings bleed through their posts. Also they only seem to be able to discuss theology within the perimeters of SDA theology as they present it. When asked questions outside of that box, they appear unable to give an answer. Often instead of the discussion progressing, they'll reply with something virtually identical to what they posted earlier in the discussion, taking it back to square one, which also demonstrates having a limited range. So that is why one might conclude that what SDAs believe "is beaten into their heads through brainwashing" as you put it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I disagree with your premise that the church follows RxF. Here is my main argument. If we didn't reject RxF and drift away from our first love for Jesus why are we still here? Ellen White told us Jesus could have come before her death, twice, if the church as a whole would have loved Jesus with all our heart, soul and mind. Here we are well over a hundred years after she told us this still on planet earth living on a planet dedicated to sin.

These are two different arguments. You stated the SDA church doesn’t believe in righteousness by faith and the evidence I provided proves otherwise. The bigger question is why would one want to be part of an organization that you claim no longer loves Jesus. Wow. I don’t think I would ever say that about any church yet alone the church I claim I am a member of.. Only God knows and can judge the heart. I think we need to trust Him on this and leave His judgement to Him.

It isn't a cold heartless judgment on my part but the reading of the evidence. I know of entire SDA churches, large ones, that don't even live by our standards and have gone woke and teach emerging church heresy. Our institutions of higher learning have in large part stopped teaching our Biblical theology too. Our small local church has an elder that is a socialist which political ideology is anti god at its very heart and our pastor is a speaker at Project One events. We have conferences that have banned Doug Batchelor from speaking in them and our GC president refuses to support religious liberty in that he refuses to support members who chose not to get vaccinated. We also have conferences that have fired every pastor who would not get vaccinated. Somehow I thought our bodies are the temple of God not the government's. What is wrong in trusting in God's promises such as Psalm 91 rather than trusting in man and his ideas? When our GC president and entire conferences have that little trust in God our church is in serious trouble spiritually.

Our GC president was just at Pastor Bachelor’s church and I can almost guarantee you Pastor Doug does not share your same sentiments about Pastor Wilson, he refers to him as his friend and I know Pastor Doug does not share your thoughts on the SDA church, otherwise he would do the respectable thing and resign which he has discussed in his sermons and said over and over the SDA church best reflects his views on doctrine. You are looking at things from your critical view similar to what you did to me about my definition of the purpose of the Sabbath but when I pushed back and asked what was yours, it was almost identical to mine, I guess it sounds better when its coming from you. Seems like its easier to point fingers, but for me I could never be part of an organization that I am so critical of, I would want to move on. Have you ever discussed your concerns with your Pastor?

My aunt is very critical of Pastor Doug. She wanted to recreate their music department. I love my aunt immensely but she is very worldly, does not attend or rarely attends church, out in bars with her band on Sabbath evenings and Pastor Doug had every right to protect the flock but instead of my aunt seeing it from this view, she too condemns the SDA church. It happens, I am sure in every church

I was happy to step aside to let you step in since you said you are a better teacher, but I may jump in here or there to give another perspective of the Adventist view.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

SDA members here I talk to thoroughly avoid bringing up EGW, but her writings bleed through their posts. Also they only seem to be able to discuss theology within the perimeters of SDA theology as they present it. When asked questions outside of that box, they appear unable to give an answer. Often instead of the discussion progressing, they'll reply with something virtually identical to what they posted earlier in the discussion, taking it back to square one, which also demonstrates having a limited range. So that is why one might conclude that what SDAs believe "is beaten into their heads through brainwashing" as you put it.

I have never read an EGW book. I just started reading the Great Controversy not even on chapter 2 yet because I spend most of my time reading the Bible from cover to cover. The Spirit will teach us all Truth and sometimes when I read a scripture and reflect on it and come to an understanding, I always find it amazing to hear that same view from a sermon I listen to later. There’s only one Truth to scripture so you will find similar answers to that one Truth. You ask a Sunday keeping church why they don’t keep the 4th commandment and you will get a variety of different answers.

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Are we both on the same page that the traditional Adventist section is not part of the denomination specific section? That's why you can critically examine adventism in the DST, but not in the traditional adventism section? At least, that's how I remember it

What is it that we wanted to discuss about SDA beliefs? I don't remember anymore

You misunderstood my comment as I was not clear what I meant. I said what I did because you posted the link to the traditional Adventist forum. I spent more time once again explaining why it would not be problematic to discuss SDA beliefs there.

You're the one who brought up Ellen White and made all the SDA comments in this thread about her.when they are about scripture and have nothing to do with her other than she taught scriptural truths.

 

[Gary K]

These are two different arguments you morphed into one. You stated the SDA church doesn’t believe in righteousness by faith and the evidence I provided proves otherwise. The bigger question is why would one want to be part of an organization that you claim no longer loves Jesus. Wow. I don’t think I would every say that about any church yet alone the church I claim I am a member of.. Only God knows and can judge the heart. I think we need to trust Him on this and leave this to Him.

Our GC president was just at Pastor Bachelor’s church and I can almost guarantee you Pastor Doug does not share your same sentiments about Pastor Wilson, he refers to him as his friend and I know Pastor Doug does not share your thoughts on the SDA church, otherwise he would do the respectable thing and resign which he has discussed in his sermons and said over and over the SDA church best reflects his views on doctrine. You are looking at things from your critical view similar to what you did to me about my definition of the purpose of the Sabbath but when I pushed back and asked what was yours, it was almost identical to mine, I guess it sounds better when its coming from you. Some people just want to point fingers and for me I could never be part of an organization that I am so critical of, I would just move on life is short, why carry so much anger and animosity, its not healthy. Have you ever discussed your concerns with your Pastor?

My aunt is very critical of Pastor Doug. She wanted to recreate their music department. I love my aunt immensely but she is very worldly, does not attend or rarely attends church, out in bars with her band on Sabbath evenings and Pastor Doug had every right to protect the flock but instead of my aunt seeing it from this view, she too condemns the SDA church. It happens, I am sure in every church

I was happy to step aside to let you step in since you said you are a better teacher but I don’t think the Adventist view is being reflected accurately, so I will probably being jumping in here or there.

I'm sorry but you did not prove anything. Head knowledge of theology will never change our hearts. Only the personal application of scripture to the heart changes lives by the prayerful request that God change our hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit. I'll give you a couple of quotes from Ellen White that demonstrate my point.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.


As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. Desire of Ages p 668

Many are inquiring, “How am I to make the surrender of myself
to God?” You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in
moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your
life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You
cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The
knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens
your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that
God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to
understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power
in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything
depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God
has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your
heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can
choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then
work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus
your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of
Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts
will be in harmony with Him. Steps to Christ p.32

Do you keep the law of God like Jesus did? If not then your heart has not been changed according to the promises of scripture and Ellen Whites writings. I still fall occassionaly but I've only been applying this to myself every morning in prayer on a very personal level for about 3 months and I can tell you that the difference in my life is like night and day

Here are a couple of promises from scripture.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is what righteousness by faith is all about. It's about living yhe same kind of life Jesus lived.

 

[Gary K]

SDA members here I talk to thoroughly avoid bringing up EGW, but her writings bleed through their posts. Also they only seem to be able to discuss theology within the perimeters of SDA theology as they present it. When asked questions outside of that box, they appear unable to give an answer. Often instead of the discussion progressing, they'll reply with something virtually identical to what they posted earlier in the discussion, taking it back to square one, which also demonstrates having a limited range. So that is why one might conclude that what SDAs believe "is beaten into their heads through brainwashing" as you put it.

That is your assumption. I can say a very similar thing about your beliefs. You allow theologians to shape your beliefs so you read into scrptire what they have taught you to believe about it.

 

[Gary K]

If I remember right, it's because you had called Jehoshaphat the king of Israel. Once the kingdom divided, the northern kingdom is referred to as Israel and the southern as Judah. No, not exclusively, but generally speaking when it comes to the names of the kings. So Jehoshaphat is called the king of Judah.

You also brought up the part about 186,000 Assyrians being slain in Jehoshaphat's days. I'm pretty sure it was Hezekiah.

That's why I was asking you if you were sure about those things. Maybe you were aware of a passage I didn't know about

I think you need to reread my post as one my comments was about Jehoshaphat offering to help Ahab in his war with the Syrians.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is what righteousness by faith is all about. It's about living yhe same kind of life Jesus lived.

We must belong to different denominations then, even though we both claim to be SDA’s. The SDA church that I belong to believes that Jesus is on every page. Jesus is the only way. Jesus not only came to save us from our sins, but showed us the perfect example of how to live. I am sorry if your church doesn’t teach you these things, but my church is full of teaching us to be more like Jesus.

 

[Gary K]

We must belong to different denominations then, even though we both claim to be SDA’s. The SDA church that I belong to believes that Jesus is on every page. Jesus is the only way. Jesus not only came to save us from our sins, but showed us the perfect example of how to live. I am sorry if your church doesn’t teach you these things, but my church is full of teaching us to be more like Jesus.

Yeah, right. I gave you quotes from Ellen White and Bible verses that tell you exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. I'm really sorry you believe that because I've never seen any indication that you're dishonest.

 

[Gary K]

I have a question that has to do with the forum software that I don't know the answer to and have never seen before in 20+ years of forum posting. When I last logged in and opened up the menu for achievements, my content, etc... there was a message that one of my posts in this thread was voted for. Anyone know what that means and how I can find that post?