What is the difference between sickness and sin?

[Dogheaded]

I don't know what to think of delusions. I know sin comes with delusions - is a delusion.

But what about mental health kind of delusions?

I know there is some overlap. How are these differentiated?

 

[ArmyMatt]

one is demonic, the other is biological. both are rooted in sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and both could happen at the same time.

 

[Unqualified]

Delusions occur in the mind. Believing something that has no base in generalized reality.
But sin is real a concept consequences based in the feelings, in God, with guilt, which is a product of our consciences. Born out of a need to please God.

Those who don’t have a conscience or guilt feelings, still have guilt for their sins. As of having been tried in court by the Ten Commandments and are guilty as charged.

mental health delusions are from a mind that has been changed somehow. Inherited, drugs, abuse, alcohol, isolation, trauma. They are hard to deal with but not for God. But we must bear them sometimes and God is our comfort in the Bible.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Delusions occur in the mind.

they can occur in the soul as well.

 

[Unqualified]

they can occur in the soul as well.

I don’t know if supposed to be in this forum or not…..do you have experience with such things @ArmyMatt . Maybe an example of what you said? Isn’t the mind part of the soul? Just curious.

 

[Dogheaded]

one is demonic, the other is biological. both are rooted in sin.

How do I know though?

 

[rusmeister]

one is demonic, the other is biological. both are rooted in sin.

Actually, father Matt, I would correct this. Mental illness, in my opinion, is not only biological, although certainly I believe a biological cause can produce it. We are talking specifically about mental, what people think, and so, mental error, being genuinely wrong, thinking wrongly can produce a chain effect that leads to incorrigible error. The sexual insanity we see today, for example, is, I believe, both spiritually produced by desire and passion, encouraged by demons, AND error about what is good, right, and true. In other words, we wind up buttressing our wrong desires by wrong arguments for them. I have said a thousand times here that wrong language is the beginning of error in thinking about things; in the beginning was the word. Saying that a person “is gay”, “has a sexual orientation” (rather than a passion), that his sex is actually his “gender”, are the beginnings of that chain of error that lead to full-blown insanity.

This can be expanded into anything, not only sexuality, of course, as a Christian can go mad over concern about climate change, beginning from the right idea that we are supposed to be good stewards, and going wrong by trying to make it a major concern of the Church, even above and beyond “the Great Commission”, and attempting to force everyone to be good stewards by secular schemes through force of law. From this comes “Earth Day” and other modern idiocies that help us imagine that we can be our own gods and “save the world” through our own efforts. That goes for mad ideas like “reparations” as now being promoted for ancient sins by and against people long dead, the idea that we can do what only God can - impose historical justice. All are instances of mental failure begun in wrong thinking, by no means necessarily biological, but simply in believing something that is false.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don’t know if supposed to be in this forum or not…..do you have experience with such things @ArmyMatt . Maybe an example of what you said? Isn’t the mind part of the soul? Just curious.

well, I am a priest. spiritual delusion leaves with invoking Christ, making the sign of the cross, expressing humility, etc

 

[ArmyMatt]

How do I know though?

if it’s demonic, making the sign of the cross and/or prayers will reveal it as delusion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Actually, father Matt, I would correct this. Mental illness, in my opinion, is not only biological, although certainly I believe a biological cause can produce it. We are talking specifically about mental, what people think, and so, mental error, being genuinely wrong, thinking wrongly can produce a chain effect that leads to incorrigible error. The sexual insanity we see today, for example, is, I believe, both spiritually produced by desire and passion, encouraged by demons, AND error about what is good, right, and true. In other words, we wind up buttressing our wrong desires by wrong arguments for them. I have said a thousand times here that wrong language is the beginning of error in thinking about things; in the beginning was the word. Saying that a person “is gay”, “has a sexual orientation” (rather than a passion), that his sex is actually his “gender”, are the beginnings of that chain of error that lead to full-blown insanity.

This can be expanded into anything, not only sexuality, of course, as a Christian can go mad over concern about climate change, beginning from the right idea that we are supposed to be good stewards, and going wrong by trying to make it a major concern of the Church, even above and beyond “the Great Commission”, and attempting to force everyone to be good stewards by secular schemes through force of law. From this comes “Earth Day” and other modern idiocies that help us imagine that we can be our own gods and “save the world” through our own efforts. That goes for mad ideas like “reparations” as now being promoted for ancient sins by and against people long dead, the idea that we can do what only God can - impose historical justice. All are instances of mental failure begun in wrong thinking, by no means necessarily biological, but simply in believing something that is false.

not sure the point of this post, rus. what are you correcting in what I said?

 

[rusmeister]

not sure the point of this post, rus. what are you correcting in what I said?

Well, maybe just clarifying. You mentioned the demonic and the biological, and the mental was kind of left out of that, and I wanted to point that out. That’s all. Your own points were quite right.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, maybe just clarifying. You mentioned the demonic and the biological, and the mental was kind of left out of that, and I wanted to point that out. That’s all. Your own points were quite right.

the mental wasn’t left out. it’s either something demonic or our fallen biology (or both).

 

[Dogheaded]

Well, maybe just clarifying. You mentioned the demonic and the biological, and the mental was kind of left out of that, and I wanted to point that out. That’s all. Your own points were quite right.

I appreciated the clarification.

 

[Dogheaded]

if it’s demonic, making the sign of the cross and/or prayers will reveal it as delusion.

What if I do that but still am unsure? Does that make it biological? Or what if I'm not sure I have such delusion at all (in regard to a specific thing.) I doubt myself, sure, but how do I know?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What if I do that but still am unsure? Does that make it biological? Or what if I'm not sure I have such delusion at all (in regard to a specific thing.) I doubt myself, sure, but how do I know?

the demons flee before the cross, so if it persists when you make the cross or whatever, it’s time to talk to a doctor (and we should talk to both clergy and physicians the whole time).

 

[rusmeister]

the mental wasn’t left out. it’s either something demonic or our fallen biology (or both).

I’ve been thinking about that. I don’t think that thinking as such is a product of biology, essentially, the material. The essential “I” (isn’t that what the nous is?) is not itself material, and not every mistake in thought is demonic. It seems to me that a person can make a mistake in thinking without demons being behind it and at the same time the cause need not be something like broken synapses or whatever. I think there is a third element in thought, that CAN be a result of the Fall, but is nor necessarily either demonic or material. Maybe you are including human reason into biology, but I don’t think of biology that way.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The essential “I” (isn’t that what the nous is?)

no, that’s not the nous. you need a nous to be an “I,” but the nous isn’t the essential “I.”

It seems to me that a person can make a mistake in thinking without demons being behind it and at the same time the cause need not be something like broken synapses or whatever. I think there is a third element in thought, that CAN be a result of the Fall, but is nor necessarily either demonic or material.

so, if it’s not demons or misfiring nerves/chemicals, what is it? in other words, what specifically influences a fallen thought.

 

[rusmeister]

no, that’s not the nous. you need a nous to be an “I,” but the nous isn’t the essential “I.”


so, if it’s not demons or misfiring nerves/chemicals, what is it? in other words, what specifically influences a fallen thought.

OK.
I think the will and the passions can influence them. We misread experience, for example, a person can experience kindness or see smiles from people who already believe or practice wrong things, like same-sex sexual passion, or a helpful and friendly Muslim who doesn’t fully believe his own creed, and they can conclude that these things must not be so bad if the people are smiling, kind, and friendly. I see neither misfiring nerves nor demons as necessarily involved (though they could also be involved) . One desires kindness and goodness and makes a choice from will to associate the things.

That’s how it seems to me. I hope I’m not coming off as strident or dogmatic. This is one where I am ready to concede good points.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think the will and the passions can influence them.

no doubt, but even in the examples you just gave, the Church would see a demonic influence in both. if Satan is the father of lies, then both examples have their origin in him.

will and the (blameless) passions are natural to man, but they don’t add a third category. theologically, they just clarify spiritual delusion.