Question about loss of salvation

[John Mullally]

I mean can they get back into Christ?

For sound doctrine and understanding, I highly recommend the excellent book, "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer, and when it is completed, your own reading of the Bible, from Gen 1:1 to the end of Rev.

That should clean all the soot out of your engine.

dms1972: Jesus will not turn away from those who come to Him (John 6:37). Don't quit. Our Jesus who commanded His disciples to forgive those who repent multiple times (Matthew 18:21-22), will forgive those who come to Him.

Think twice about J. I. Packer as he is a Calvinist theologian. Calvin teaches that God predestines many to hell (see below) before they are born in order to give Himself glory. That does not represent our God of love (1 John 4:8). Use wisdom (Matthew 10:16) and avoid interpreting scripture with any preconceptions that grieve your soul (like Calvin's quote below).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

You won't hear the above quote from Calvin stressed at any Calvinist (AKA Reformed) Church because it would empty their pews! Imagine telling pregnant mothers that their unborn child might have been designed by God to split hell wide open in order to give Him glory!

I suggest doing your own research. Pray, read the Bible starting with the NT, keep your ears open, sample Christian media voices critically, use logic (2 Timothy 2:17), resist fear (1 John 4:18), and listen to your gut (Romans 8:26). Fellowship with other believers. God bless you.

 

[Clare73]

dms1972: Jesus will not turn away from those who come to Him (John 6:37). Don't quit. Our Jesus who commanded His disciples to forgive those who repent multiple times (Matthew 18:21-22), will forgive those who come to Him.

Think twice about J. I. Packer as he is a Calvinist theologian. Calvin teaches that God predestines many to hell (see below) before they are born in order to give Himself glory. That does not represent our God of love (1 John 4:8). Use wisdom (Matthew 10:16) and avoid interpreting scripture with any preconceptions that grieve your soul (like Calvin's quote below).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

You won't hear the above quote from Calvin stressed at any Calvinist (AKA Reformed) Church because it would empty their pews! Imagine telling pregnant mothers that their unborn child might have been designed by God to split hell wide open in order to give Him glory!

I suggest doing your own research. Pray, read the Bible starting with the NT, keep your ears open, sample Christian media voices critically, use logic (2 Timothy 2:17), resist fear (1 John 4:18), and listen to your gut (Romans 8:26). Fellowship with other believers. God bless you.

dms1972: You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer.
He is not a "Calvinist" theologian, he is a Reformed theologian.
Calvin does not own the Reformation, Scripture owns the Reformation.

It is a 50-year-old Christian classic, presenting the basic principles of Scripture, and what I consider to be the best book written outside of Scripture.

 

[John Mullally]

dms1972: You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer.
He is not a "Calvinist" theologian, he is a Reformed theologian.
Calvin does not own the Reformation, Scripture owns the Reformation.

It is a 50-year-old Christian classic, presenting the basic principles of Scripture, and what I consider to be the best book written outside of Scripture.

Wikipedia says that Packer was a "was an English-born Canadian evangelical theologian" and that "Packer held to the soteriological position known as Calvinism." J. I. Packer - Wikipedia.

In this book he says "“In Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners.”.

 

[dms1972]

I don't feel any drawing anymore, christian things don't have a reality for me. To be honest things have been like this for many years. I forced myself to start going to a church for a while completely lacking interest, having been away from church for several years. Maybe I am apostate? Maybe I never had real spiritual life?

 

[Clare73]

Wikipedia says that Packer was a "was an English-born Canadian evangelical theologian" and that "Packer held to the soteriological position known as Calvinism." J. I. Packer - Wikipedia.

In this book he says "“In Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners.”

Confirming precisely what I stated to you regarding your assertion about Packer:

"You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer."

 

[dms1972]

I read some of Packer's book a good while ago. I was surprised because he did not say a lot about election and predestination at least not directly.

Within Calvinism in any case there are differences of emphasis. If you read RT Kendall's Calvin and English Calvinism he explains the differences between Calvin and Beza. It's even led some to ask was Calvin a calvinist, and RT Kendall thinks he was a 4.5 point calvinist. In any case Kendall's book gave me a sense what Calvin taught is somewhat different from how many construe calvinism.

Its not even easy to tell if Calvin was Infralapsarian, or Supralapsarian, because I think these distinctions came in after Calvin

 

[John Mullally]

Confirming precisely what I stated to you regarding your assertion about Packer:

"You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer."

You said Packer was not a Calvinist and Packer showed that he was a Calvinist. That confirms something alright.

I will give you this: From perusing Packers book, he is generally positive and encouraging as opposed to the doom and gloom Calvin - see below:

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)​

​

“…we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction…he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 7)​

​

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

​

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

“…it is very wicked merely to investigate the causes of God’s will. For his will is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are.”…”For God’s will is so much the highest rule of righteousness that whatever he wills, by the very fact that he wills it, must be considered righteous. When, therefore, one asks why God has so done, we must reply: because he has willed it. But if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God’s will, which cannot be found.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4)​

​

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

​

“For if predestination is nothing but the meting out of divine justice–secret, indeed, but blameless–because it is certain that they were not unworthy to be predestined to this condition, it is equally certain that the destruction they undergo by predestination is also most just. Besides, their perdition depends upon the predestination of God in such a way that the cause and occasion of it are found in themselves. For the first man fell because the Lord had judged it to be expedient; why he so judged is hidden from us.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Man falls according as God’s providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Moreover, the wicked bring upon themselves the just destruction to which they are destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 24, heading)​

 

[Clare73]

From perusing Packers book, he is generally positive and encouraging as opposed to the doom and gloom Calvin - see below:

And this is relevant to Packer's book, how?

 

[John Mullally]

dms1972: You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer.
He is not a "Calvinist" theologian, he is a Reformed theologian.
Calvin does not own the Reformation, Scripture owns the Reformation.

It is a 50-year-old Christian classic, presenting the basic principles of Scripture, and what I consider to be the best book written outside of Scripture.

Wikipedia says that Packer was a "was an English-born Canadian evangelical theologian" and that "Packer held to the soteriological position known as Calvinism." J. I. Packer - Wikipedia.

In this book he says "“In Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners.”.

Confirming precisely what I stated to you regarding your assertion about Packer

"You will find nothing of the kind in "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer."

You said Packer was not a Calvinist and Packer showed that he was a Calvinist. That confirms something alright.

I will give you this: From perusing Packers book, he is generally positive and encouraging as opposed to the doom and gloom Calvin - see below:

And this is relevant to Packer's book, how?

What you said in Box 1 (above) about Packer not being Calvinist is false as Wikipedia terms him that and he admits to being so from his book (see Box 2). And after I showed you that error in Box 2, you claim you were right all along in Box 3. Your Box 3 response has you taking a victory lap after being proven wrong. My Box 4 response points out your Box 3 omission (of not admitting your mistake) and in my second sentence of Box 4, I tried to come up with a possible reason for your thinking what you said in Box 1 and my response in Box 2 is confirmed (via Box 3) as I generally found Packer positive and encouraging. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps you can explain how what I said in Box 2 that shows Packer considered himself a Calvinist works to "Confirming precisely what I stated to you regarding your assertion about Packer".

 

[dms1972]

Packer is an Anglican and I have seen some describe him as a "low calvinist". He has a high regard for the Puritans (who were mostly calvinists) - that is what I read online.

Anglicanism is a via media, its a middle way between Lutheranism and Reformed Christianity.

 

[dms1972]

ANyway I am not really wanting to get into a debate about Calvinism here as such, most people haven't read His Institutes, they just pick up a few quotes here and there. I think there are more positions than Calvinism and Arminianism in any case, for instance Barthian and Eastern Orthodoxy differ from these. I also have Calvin's Institutes which I read occasionaly to see what he says on something.

 

[Clare73]

What you said in Box 1 (above) about Packer not being Calvinist is false as Wikipedia terms him that and he admits to being so from his book (see Box 2). And after I showed you that error in Box 2, you claim you were right all along in Box 3

Your quoted this statement in Box 2 regarding Packer's book:

In this book he says "“In Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners,"

which demonstrates the misrepresentation of your following assertion:

Think twice about J. I. Packer as he is a Calvinist theologian. Calvin teaches that God predestines many to hell (see below) before they are born in order to give Himself glory. That does not represent our God of love (1 John 4:8). Use wisdom (Matthew 10:16) and avoid interpreting scripture with any preconceptions that grieve your soul (like Calvin's quote below).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

You won't hear the above quote from Calvin stressed at any Calvinist (AKA Reformed) Church because it would empty their pews! Imagine telling pregnant mothers that their unborn child might have been designed by God to split hell wide open in order to give Him glory!

I suggest doing your own research. Pray, read the Bible starting with the NT, keep your ears open, sample Christian media voices critically, use logic (2 Timothy 2:17), resist fear (1 John 4:18), and listen to your gut (Romans 8:26). Fellowship with other believers. God bless you.

Your Box 3 response has you taking a victory lap after being proven wrong. My Box 4 response points out your Box 3 omission (of not admitting your mistake) and in my second sentence of Box 4, I tried to come up with a possible reason for your thinking what you said in Box 1 and my response in Box 2 is confirmed (via Box 3) as I generally found Packer positive and encouraging. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps you can explain how what I said in Box 2 that shows Packer considered himself a Calvinist works to "Confirming precisely what I stated to you regarding your assertion about Packer".

See above.

 

[dms1972]

-

 

[dms1972]

Those regenerated by the Holy Spirit are guaranteed the eternal inheritance (1 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:4).

So you are saying a regenerate person cannot go back, or leave their faith?

 

[dms1972]

You said Packer was not a Calvinist and Packer showed that he was a Calvinist. That confirms something alright.

I will give you this: From perusing Packers book, he is generally positive and encouraging as opposed to the doom and gloom Calvin - see below:

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)​

​

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)​

​

“…we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction…he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 7)​

​

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

​

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

“…it is very wicked merely to investigate the causes of God’s will. For his will is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are.”…”For God’s will is so much the highest rule of righteousness that whatever he wills, by the very fact that he wills it, must be considered righteous. When, therefore, one asks why God has so done, we must reply: because he has willed it. But if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God’s will, which cannot be found.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4)​

​

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

​

“For if predestination is nothing but the meting out of divine justice–secret, indeed, but blameless–because it is certain that they were not unworthy to be predestined to this condition, it is equally certain that the destruction they undergo by predestination is also most just. Besides, their perdition depends upon the predestination of God in such a way that the cause and occasion of it are found in themselves. For the first man fell because the Lord had judged it to be expedient; why he so judged is hidden from us.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Man falls according as God’s providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Moreover, the wicked bring upon themselves the just destruction to which they are destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 24, heading)​

If you pick and choose quotes like that it does seem like he is all doom and gloom.

 

[John Mullally]

Your quoted this statement in Box 2 regarding Packer's book:

In this book he says "“In Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners,"

which demonstrates the misrepresentation of your following assertion:

Think twice about J. I. Packer as he is a Calvinist theologian. Calvin teaches that God predestines many to hell (see below) before they are born in order to give Himself glory. That does not represent our God of love (1 John 4:8). Use wisdom (Matthew 10:16) and avoid interpreting scripture with any preconceptions that grieve your soul (like Calvin's quote below).

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

You won't hear the above quote from Calvin stressed at any Calvinist (AKA Reformed) Church because it would empty their pews! Imagine telling pregnant mothers that their unborn child might have been designed by God to split hell wide open in order to give Him glory!

I suggest doing your own research. Pray, read the Bible starting with the NT, keep your ears open, sample Christian media voices critically, use logic (2 Timothy 2:17), resist fear (1 John 4:18), and listen to your gut (Romans 8:26). Fellowship with other believers. God bless you.

See above.

I said Packer was a Calvinist and you said he was not. Packer identified with Calvinism concerning Soteriology (we are in that forum). Here is more Charles Spurgeon and J. I. Packer on Calvinism

I presented some of what Calvin taught concerning Soteriology. I did not say Packer taught that. But in Packer's agreeing with Calvin on Soteriology, Packer was influenced by the man (Calvin) who made that statement. You can tell a lot about a theologian by listening to whom he follows.

 

[Clare73]

So you are saying a regenerate person cannot go back, or leave their faith?

It's more that he never desires to go back because what he has now is so much more in every way.
But in reality, it is that God in the new birth enables him never to go back.

 

[fhansen]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

Man can refuse, or turn back away from, grace, from God, at any point.

 

[ladodgers6]

ANyway I am not really wanting to get into a debate about Calvinism here as such, most people haven't read His Institutes, they just pick up a few quotes here and there. I think there are more positions than Calvinism and Arminianism in any case, for instance Barthian and Eastern Orthodoxy differ from these. I also have Calvin's Institutes which I read occasionaly to see what he says on something.

Yeah, there are many religions. But knowing how a sinner is justified before a Holy God; is what Calvin, Luther and many others said is the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls. Without getting this doctrine right, nothing else matters.

Religion is summed up into pretty much into two camps. Legalism (Law), or Promise (Gospel), some times a conflate of the two.

 

[DingDing]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

Yes, a person who "falls away" can return (but many, perhaps most, don't). Let me know if you want to discuss.