Question about loss of salvation

[dms1972]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

 

[d taylor]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

You have been reading incorrect information more than likely Calvinist/reformed .

Regeneration does not happen first and a person does not make a decision for Christ.

God is offering people His free gift of Eternal Life (salvation). That is received only by believing in Jesus.
That is not a decision a person makes and it does not happen before a person believes.

When a person is persuaded that is, comes to believe that Eternal Life is receive through faith in Jesus. Then they will believe in Jesus. If a person does not believe that is the way a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life, then they will not believe in Jesus.

It is not a decision being made, but that people come to believe the promise of God is true. That anyone who believes in Jesus receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

With that being said after a person believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life they become a born again child of God. God's Eternal Life take up residence in the born again child of God (The Life of God/The Holy Spirit). So it is not the born again child of God remaining in Christ but It is The Life of God remaining in the born again child of God. God states He will never leave His born again children of God.

So a born again child of God can never lose the life of God they received at the moment of faith in Jesus.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Online post about "is faith a decision"

Is Faith a Decision? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[d taylor]

Also articles on "regeneration before faith"

The Bread of Life: Why Faith Precedes Regeneration (John 6:35) – Grace Evangelical Society

“Regeneration: A Crux Interpretum” – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Unqualified]

There is the prodigal son and there is Hebrews 6:4-6. . Both are true, it might be the number of years prodigal that separates them. There is Calvinism and there is Arminianism, both are true to a certain extent. I believe we have to make a decision and do the work. God leads us to repentance and faith. You have heard people say they try to escape from Him? The hound of heaven? God allows things and stuff happens.

 

[dms1972]

This is the discussion, I was particularly interested in the discussion in the comments section (quoted below)

Decision Theology: Can you make a decision for Christ?

This fine article was written by Pastor Brian Wolfmueller of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado. “Have you made a decision for Christ?” One often hears this question from radio and television preachers, or even from our friends and family....

www.extremetheology.com

"A person does have the ability to reject the gift... It's Calvinism that teaches otherwise. As Drew said, there *are* other options besides Arminianism and Calvinism, though this seems to be a well-kept secret in most evangelical circles!​

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Quite a lot of people have a problem with the idea of God "imposing" his gift of salvation on people, as though it were somehow rude or unfair of him; as though he has no right to our lives. I beg to differ. First of all, God is not forcing something terrible on us-- he is saving us! Was Jesus wrong to force Lazarus from death back to life? Is it unfair for a man to save a drowning person and to pull him back to the ship even though that person is too incapacitated to "accept" the lifeline? We should view God's salvation this way instead of resenting it. If we are dead and lost, we need resurrection and saving.​

Secondly, such talk of accepting a gift presumes that only adults receive gifts from God and can be saved. Get rid of the presupposition. You can give an infant a gift without them formally "accepting" it and saying thank you, can't you? The infant may reject the gift later, but they have no ability to appropriate it willfully in the first place, and we view that as being okay. Likewise, an adoptee does not choose its adoptive parents. It all depends on the grace and mercy of the ones taking care of the helpless one."​

"What I'm saying is that we do not make a decision to accept salvation while we are still unregenerated sinners-- it's spiritually impossible just like raising yourself from the dead is physically impossible-- yet we can reject salvation after we have received it. Being inclined to sin, we are free to reject our faith, so no, God does not impose or force anyone to stay in his grace and salvation. If Lazarus decided to jump off a cliff after Jesus raised him, he could have. A child that did not choose to be born can grow up and choose suicide. You can reject something even if it's impossible to choose it in the first place."​

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[Blade]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

I have to many questions here. Well who is Christ? Just what is salvation? What is saved by grace through faith? What does remain mean?

So know the king of kings lord of lords the son of the living God who sits right now at the right hand of the Father do we? No I mean do we know Him? Some bless their heart will say "if we love Christ we will obey Him". Now that is true yet not. Well at the start did the 12 just LOVE Jesus? They walked with Him how many years before He then asked "if you love me you will keep my words". Yet that was not about salvation. See at the start before they loved Him knew Him He told them one day don't rejoice that the demons have to listen to you but that your names are written in heaven.

See what is salvation or born from above or born again or regeneration? See when He found us what was made new? That new man which after God is (not maybe not could be) is created in righteousness and true holiness. That new man can it sin? The sweet sweet holy Spirit through Paul told us a key. What I should be doing I don't do yet what I should not do I do. Its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me

"As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing."

See to many only see the natural not the supernatural. Most are like Nicodemus where Christ said "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?". Were told to walk live in the spirit yet most do not as its written "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I digress... look at it like this. What did Satan know about God? Yeah everything.. His power His mercy His grace... Satan was there yet sin was found in him and he left ..well forced to leave. There is no salvation for them they knew Him. What does man know? Nothing...we know sin first its all we know. So someone would have to know God.. walk with Him "and have tasted and consciously experienced the good word of God and the powers of the age (world) to come,". That person knows God.. talked to Him back and forth.. there is no doubt what so ever that God, Christ the holy Spirit are real.. no questions ever. "and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Why? Exactly like Satan.. they know what they left and there is nothing God has or can do that they would want again. Now these people are so far so between. Like said at the start.. who is Christ? Which one is real? Catholic, Mormons, SDA, JW, Baptist, Word of Faith.. on and on. Which one is God going to hold MAN accountable to? Your version or understanding of salvation or mine or?

Like how can you love someone you don't know? Most are blind as Christ said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Its so far easier to be saved then lost. Don't take my word for it.. ask Him. See right there can we just ask Him? If we KNOW Him then we know His sheep know/hear His voice. He talks all the time.. gifts? yeah.. do we know Him

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Receiving faith is like seeing the sun rise. You do not decide to do anything. By the time the light has entered your eyes that possibility has past. The sun does not ask your permission to come into your eyes, and the sun rises even upon those who do not see it.
Romans says "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
I read and understand it to say "belief comes by revelation and revelation by a word from Christ."

The entrance of His word gives light. Once the light is in you, it is too late for choice. There is no decision in this. There are no choices offered, no chance to refuse. Those who suggest that there is some choice or decision to make are missing something important. Faith is a spiritual thing, and spiritual things are not subject to soulical choices and decisions. It is hard to believe that God would subject your eternal life to the same mechanism that chooses which tie you will wear or what you will have for lunch.
Getting faith and being saved is like being caught in a net. The fisherman casts his net and you are caught. The fisherman and his net do not ask your permission in the matter. One moment you are swimming aimlessly around, suddenly you are in a net being pulled in. Then you are in the fisherman's hand, and he vows to never release you or let you go. Get ahold of yourself little fish. You do not have the power to thrust yourself from his hand.
The ego and soul trick the man to think it is up to him. He says, "I am in control and nothing happens to me unless I condone and approve it. If I don't want God to catch me, I will not allow Him to do it. NO God, forget it! I AM in control of MY life."
Kind of funny when you think about it.
There is a choice. As the faith in you begins to press on your consciousness, you have the choice to submit to the new-creature that has been born into you and the Holy Spirit that is teaching you. Many people think THIS is when they get saved. It is now that they say that prayer of salvation or go down to the altar to be prayed for. Truth is you were saved at some point before, and are just giving up the resistance of your ego and flesh have to that which is in you. They trick themselves into thinking they made a choice for salvation, when in reality they are just deciding to submit to what has already happened within them.
Some of these thoughts come from a book I wrote many years ago entitled "Suddenly Saved."

 

[bling]

This is the discussion, I was particularly interested in the discussion in the comments section (quoted below)

Decision Theology: Can you make a decision for Christ?

This fine article was written by Pastor Brian Wolfmueller of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado. “Have you made a decision for Christ?” One often hears this question from radio and television preachers, or even from our friends and family....

www.extremetheology.com

"A person does have the ability to reject the gift... It's Calvinism that teaches otherwise. As Drew said, there *are* other options besides Arminianism and Calvinism, though this seems to be a well-kept secret in most evangelical circles!​

​

Quite a lot of people have a problem with the idea of God "imposing" his gift of salvation on people, as though it were somehow rude or unfair of him; as though he has no right to our lives. I beg to differ. First of all, God is not forcing something terrible on us-- he is saving us! Was Jesus wrong to force Lazarus from death back to life? Is it unfair for a man to save a drowning person and to pull him back to the ship even though that person is too incapacitated to "accept" the lifeline? We should view God's salvation this way instead of resenting it. If we are dead and lost, we need resurrection and saving.​

Secondly, such talk of accepting a gift presumes that only adults receive gifts from God and can be saved. Get rid of the presupposition. You can give an infant a gift without them formally "accepting" it and saying thank you, can't you? The infant may reject the gift later, but they have no ability to appropriate it willfully in the first place, and we view that as being okay. Likewise, an adoptee does not choose its adoptive parents. It all depends on the grace and mercy of the ones taking care of the helpless one."​

"What I'm saying is that we do not make a decision to accept salvation while we are still unregenerated sinners-- it's spiritually impossible just like raising yourself from the dead is physically impossible-- yet we can reject salvation after we have received it. Being inclined to sin, we are free to reject our faith, so no, God does not impose or force anyone to stay in his grace and salvation. If Lazarus decided to jump off a cliff after Jesus raised him, he could have. A child that did not choose to be born can grow up and choose suicide. You can reject something even if it's impossible to choose it in the first place."​

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You are really presenting a lot of ideas that need to be addressed with many words, so where do you want to start?

• “the idea of God "imposing" his gift of salvation on people”, God being the rescuer of some, but not “all”. What would you think of a rescuer who for no apparent reason saved some drowning people when he could just as safely and easily save all the drowning people?
• “You can give an infant a gift without them formally "accepting" it”. That assumes the infant is a hell bound sinner, while the infant has not sinned and is thus not in need of salvation, but is in a “safe” condition. God the Father is a responsible parent.
• Was Jesus wrong to force Lazarus from death back to life? How do you know Lazarus did not express his desire to return to life in his spiritual state?
• “accepting a gift presumes that only adults receive gifts from God and can be saved.” No, but sinners need to humbly accept God’s undeserved unconditional selfless charity from God as charity.
• “an adoptee does not choose its adoptive parents.”, That analogy may not be a good fit. Paul tells a group of gentiles, we are all children of God. Can a child run away and join himself to another “parent satan?” God has chosen all who will accept His gifts to be His children.
• “I'm saying is that we do not make a decision to accept salvation while we are still unregenerated sinners”, This takes some explaining:

The ”choice” humans make that provides God with a “reason” for some and not others to be saved, is not some noble, honorable, deserving, worthy or righteous choice, but the very simple selfish (sinful) choice between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier of satan, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve versus, wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy and even though you hate this enemy, you are just willing for selfish reasons (sinful reasons) to humbly accept His pure undeserving charity.

As far as “faith” goes, all mature adults have been gifted with a “natural” faith, which allows them to trust people and things and they can use it to trust in objects made with human hands. Directing this God given “faith” toward a benevolent creator allows the person to have an illogical hope that benevolent Creator might just provide them with some undeserved charity.

Jesus describes the prodigal’s son state in the foreign land twice as being dead, yet the son on his own comes to his senses and turns to his father.

 

[Clare73]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

Those regenerated by the Holy Spirit are guaranteed the eternal inheritance (1 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:4).
God works in them both to will and to do his good will (Php 2:13).
If they stray out of bounds, he will bring them back. . .it may not be pleasant, but he will bring them back.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

Salvation is 100% our decision, God gives his good will to all men. It is up to us to respond to HIs good will.

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

See the order of receiving the Holy Spirit above.

1) God reveals His will
2) We obey that will, and keep it
3) God reveals Himself to us

It is clear from that passage that after receiving the message of salvation, we need to take it to heart and keep it. THEN, God will love us and reveal Himself to us. The responsibility is in our court.

Note, so I am not misrepresented in my comments, I am not suggesting we work our way to salvation by a set of good deeds. God reveals His gift of salvation, the gift of grace. We receive it and move toward God's way of living, no longer living for our flesh, but living in the Spirit. It is absolutely ridiculous to say we do no work, or no effort, the person who does not repent has not seen Him or known Him.

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

This is the same way Old Testament salvation was offered.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Those regenerated by the Holy Spirit are guaranteed the eternal inheritance (1 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:4).

Not according to scripture:

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Heb 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We are God's field, but if we bear weeds, not fruit, we will end up burned.

Just on the fire and brimstone preaching. Some people get scared when they read the above, they may have sinned, and feel they have outlived God's grace. But the reality is while we live there is hope. For the Bible says:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

The cross covers all of our sins from the day we were born to the day we die. So we can always return to God with a repentant attitude.

 

[dms1972]

What does "dead in trespasses and sins" mean?

Ephesians 2:1 - Alive with Christ

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

biblehub.com

 

[d taylor]

What does "dead in trespasses and sins" mean?

Ephesians 2:1 - Alive with Christ

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

biblehub.com

That is what people received from Adam. A person is born spiritually dead , that is they are born with body, soul and spirit but they are lacking the spirit of the Life of God. That is because instead of receiving from Adam The Life of God, they receive a sin nature. Because Adam sinned and brought sin into humanity and not the Life of God.

 

[Clare73]

Not according to scripture:
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
Heb 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We are God's field, but if we bear weeds, not fruit, we will end up burned.

Just on the fire and brimstone preaching. Some people get scared when they read the above, they may have sinned, and feel they have outlived God's grace. But the reality is while we live there is hope. For the Bible says:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

The cross covers all of our sins from the day we were born to the day we die. So we can always return to God with a repentant attitude.

You did not address 1 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:4, you simply set the above Scriptures against them.
God does not contradict himself in his word, so to be understood correctly, it must be in harmony with itself.
You are not understanding it correctly.

God operates in time through means, second causes.
For example, faith is not just dropped into one directly, it comes through a means, avenue, second cause; e.g., hearing the gospel, etc.
Likewise with perseverance of the saints, God accomplishes it through second causes, one of them being his warnings, as in the strong warnings you've presented above.
The born again heed the warnings and persevere, the unregenerate do not do either.

Now all the Scriptures above are Biblically harmonized.

 

[dms1972]

For example, faith is not just dropped into one directly, it comes through a means, avenue, second cause; e.g., hearing the gospel, etc.
Likewise with perseverance of the saints, God accomplishes it through second causes, one of them being his warnings, as in the strong warnings you've presented above.
The born again heed the warnings and persevere, the unregenerate do not do either.

As regards your first sentence, that is what I am struggling with what is the nature of Faith. Some seem to be saying faith is "our bit", we hear the gospel then its up to us, we must do something to be saved. Others understand it differently, they say the Holy Spirit must bring us to the point of seeing we can do nothing to save ourselves, not even "faith" if it is a kind of human resolution can save us, faith has to come from God. Others are saying things like ask Jesus to come into your heart, he's standing at the door knocking, and others like Karl Barth seem to be saying in effect "You are saved".

 

[Clare73]

As regards your first question, thats what I am struggling with what is the nature of Faith. Some say thats our bit, we hear the gospel then make a decision. But even before that what exactly is the Gospel? It seems like people are presenting it differently some are saying God has done something, some seem to saying God will do something if you believe. So what is it?

The gospel is God forgives all your sin and makes you right with him when in your heart you are inclined and do
believe in and trust on Jesus Christ and his death to pay the penalty for the forgiveness of your sin, and
make God who is now your Father also your Lord/Master whom you obey.

The Holy Spirit helps those who are believing, trusting and obeying to keep doing so.

But when one believes, one also needs to be instructed from the Scriptures regarding the Christian faith and life.

 

[dms1972]

I think I need to regain a Biblical idea or understanding of who God is, not sure how though, I have tried to read the scriptures, but I think I have picked up conceptions and images from the likes of Jung that are contra-biblical. Admittedly I began to get into Jung, knowing that he was a good bit off, but I just wasn't feeling part of the church at the time and I felt I wasn't spiritually on the same "wavelength" anymore as folks in the church. So I gave up and got more into Jung. I think before that though I had read some stuff like The Aquarian Conspiracy, and other other stuff I cannot remember.

To some extent I had problems with some in churches i was checking out, who were quite strict doctrinally, but perhaps I just was off the christian path at that point and the conflict was spiritual.

 

[Clare73]

I think I need to regain a Biblical idea or understanding of who God is, not sure how though, I have tried to read the scriptures, but I think I have picked up conceptions and images from the likes of Jung that are contra-biblical. Admittedly I began to get into Jung, knowing that he was a good bit off, but I just wasn't feeling part of the church at the time and I felt I wasn't spiritually on the same "wavelength" anymore as folks in the church. So I gave up and got more into Jung. I think before that though I had read some stuff like The Aquarian Conspiracy, and other other stuff I cannot remember.

To some extent I had problems with some in churches i was checking out, who were quite strict doctrinally, but perhaps I just was off the christian path at that point and the conflict was spiritual.

For sound doctrine and understanding, I highly recommend the excellent book, "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer, and when it is completed, your own reading of the Bible, from Gen 1:1 to the end of Rev.

That should clean all the soot out of your engine.

 

[John Mullally]

I've been reading an article online, and it has got me thinking, particularly some of the comments on the article.

The basic argument is that we don't make a decision for Christ, that being in Christ is not something that happens based on a decision we make. Regeneration happens first, followed by faith. However there seems to be a requirement to abide (remain) in Christ, so what I am wondering is if someone fails to remain in Christ, is there any hope for that person? I mean can they get back into Christ?

Paul summarizes the order of events in salvation in Ephesians 1:13-14. There is no mention of anything leading to believing other than hearing the Gospel message. If pre-faith regeneration (as Calvinists insist) was required, I believe it would be stated here. I submit that the "marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit who is a deposit" includes the regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Although Calvinists say that regeneration occurs before believing, I have not seen any scripture that explicitly states that. And if that was an important truth, I believe it would be explicitly stated in the NT.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​