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Limited Atonement and it's faults

Xeno.of.athens

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And yes, you are right that it is commentary. She avoided including all the rest of the Scriptures that bear on this use of her text. She did not intend to show her hermeneutic and full exegesis. But go ahead and correct her.
Why do you insert your views into a conversation that does not include you?
 
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Clare73

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Interesting that you present what you say rather than what the verses say.

Be that as it may, is your commentary sound?
I guess I need to know what you think I have presented which the verses do not say there before I can adequately respond.
 
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Clare73

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Why do you insert your views into a conversation that does not include you?
Do not discourage him. . .his additions are always more than welcome.

He is my official editor. . .and he does it for free!
 
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Clare73

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Interesting that you present what you say rather than what the verses say.

Be that as it may, is your commentary sound?
Were we not discussing Ro 3:25. . .do you not know what Ro 3:25-26 says? Can you not click on it here?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I guess I need to know what you think I have presented which the verses do not say there before I can adequately respond.
The verses say
25 God has offered him to us as a means of reconciliation, in virtue of faith, ransoming us with his blood. Thus God has vindicated his own holiness, shewing us why he overlooked our former sins​
26 in the days of his forbearance; and he has also vindicated the holiness of Jesus Christ, here and now, as one who is himself holy, and imparts holiness to those who take their stand upon faith in him.✻​
✻ The Greek text here can be, and commonly is, translated thus: ‘he has also vindicated his (God’s) holiness, here and now, as one who is himself holy, and imparts holiness to those who take their stand upon faith in Jesus Christ’. The other interpretation is, apparently, that of the Latin translators.​
 
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zoidar

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The human analogy doesn't do justice to the facts, but to play along:

Dad makes breakfast. His son hates eggs. He invites his son to eat, and his son says, "no". Turns out, knowing his son hates eggs, his dad didn't waste an egg on someone who would only say, "no" —he didn't cook one for his son. —One kind of "son".
It seems to me the egg was never available.
Dad makes breakfast. His son hates eggs. He, knowing his son hates eggs, cooks him one anyway, and then changes his son's mind and preferences to love eggs. —The other kind of "son".

Well, no. In the one case the atonement is applied ("the atonement is made"), and in the other it was "offered".

An example of the logic: God warned Israel of their impending captivity, but they ignored the warning. God had already prepared Cyrus to lay waste the people and take them captive, and that, not by his obedience, but by his pride and self-esteem. Then God showed Cyrus what's what!
I can't see how this would be similar to the atonement being available for all.
 
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zoidar

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It should not surprise you that one can both quote the verses one intends to comment upon and also provide one's commentary.
Yes, that is the common way to discuss Scripture.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think that how Romans 5:11 reads depends on the translation used.
Romans 5:11 And, what is more, we can boast of God’s protection; always through our Lord Jesus Christ, since it is through him that we have attained our reconciliation.​
In the Catholic Public Domain Version "atonement" is used quote a lot in the old testament.
  • Exodus 29:36 and you shall offer a calf for sin on each day, as an atonement. And you shall cleanse the altar when you will have immolated the victim of expiation, and you shall anoint it for sanctification.
  • Exodus 30:10 And Aaron shall pray over its horns once a year, with the blood of what was offered for sin. And he shall make atonement over it in your generations. It shall be the Holy of holies to the Lord."
  • Leviticus 5:13 praying for him and making atonement. Yet truly, the remaining part he himself shall have as a gift.
  • Leviticus 16:30 On this day, there shall be atonement for you, and also a cleansing from all your sins. You shall be cleansed in the sight of the Lord.
  • Leviticus 16:32 And the priest who has been anointed, and whose hands have been consecrated to exercise the priesthood in the place of his father, shall make atonement. And he shall be clothed with the linen robe and the holy vestments.
  • Leviticus 23:27 The tenth day of this seventh month shall be the day of atonement; it shall be most honored, and it shall be called holy. And you shall afflict your souls on that day, and you shall offer a holocaust to the Lord.
  • Leviticus 25:9 And you shall sound the trumpet in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, at the time of the atonement, throughout all your land.
  • Nehemiah 10:33 for the bread of the presence, and for the continual sacrifice, and for a continual holocaust on the Sabbaths, on the new moons, on the solemnities, and for the holy things, and for the sin offering, so that atonement would be made for Israel, and for every use within the house of our God.
    Isaiah 43:3 For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour. I have presented Egypt as your atonement, Ethiopia and Seba on your behalf.
  • Daniel 9:9 But to you, the Lord our God, is mercy and atonement, for we have withdrawn from you,
  • Sirach 7:36 And reach out your hand to the poor, so that your atonement and your blessing may be perfected.
Atonement in the old testament pointed to the cross and the shed blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
First of all let me apologize because I completely messed up that last post because I had to stop mid post to do something at work and when I came back to finish it I completely reversed what I was originally trying to say. Let me clarify my position please. Atonement or at least the Greek word used in Romans 5:11 refers to reconciliation or justification, it is not used in reference to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It can’t be used interchangeably because Christ’s sacrifice paid for the sins of all men but did not justify all men. All men can be reconciled to God but they are not automatically reconciled to Him thru Christ’s sacrifice. His sacrifice merely allowed all men to be reconciled to Him. As for the OT I haven’t explored all the verses you quoted but so far none of the ones I have checked use the same Greek word that is used in Romans 5 in the Septuagint. I’m not going to say they all don’t because I haven’t had time to check all of them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dad makes breakfast. His son hates eggs. He, knowing his son hates eggs, cooks him one anyway, and then changes his son's mind and preferences to love eggs. —The other kind of "son".
I don’t see how this analogy can be used in the situation of Christ’s sacrifice because His sacrifice was for the whole world. So this would be more like dad cooking eggs for the whole family but he only made some of them like eggs? Then why did he cook eggs for the whole family?
 
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Clare73

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The verses say
25 God has offered him to us as a means of reconciliation, in virtue of faith, ransoming us with his blood. Thus God has vindicated his own holiness, shewing us why he overlooked our former sins
26 in the days of his forbearance; and he has also vindicated the holiness of Jesus Christ, here and now, as one who is himself holy, and imparts holiness to those who take their stand upon faith in him.✻​
✻ The Greek text here can be, and commonly is, translated thus: ‘he has also vindicated his (God’s) holiness, here and now, as one who is himself holy, and imparts holiness to those who take their stand upon faith in Jesus Christ’. The other interpretation is, apparently, that of the Latin translators.​
Green's translation of Ro 3:25-26, in the Textus Receptus Greek text (exceptionally corrupt in Rev):
25) Jesus whom God set forth a propitiation through faith, by the of him blood, for a display of the righteousness of him,
through the passing by of the that before had occurred sins,
26) in the forbearance of God for the display of the righteousness of him in the present time, for the being (of) him just
and justifying
the (one) of faith of Jesus.

Marshall's translation of Ro 3:25-26 in the Nestle's Greek text:
25) whom set forth God a propitiation through faith by the of him blood, for a showing forth of the righteousness of him
because of the sins previously occurred
26) in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of the righteousness of him in the present time, for the to be him (that he should be) just and justifying the (one) of faith of (in) Jesus.

NIV translation of Ro 3:25-26 from the best current printed texts of the Greek NT:
25) God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice,
because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26) he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just
and the one who justifies
those who have faith in Jesus.

My exposition of Ro 3:25-26:
Christ's sacrifice was to:
1) demonstrate he is just, in two regards:
----a) for the sins committed beforehand (by the OT saints) that in his forbearance he had left unpunished,
----b) for the sins committed at the present time, (in both cases) so as to be just, and
2) to be the justifier, to be the one who (both) exacts/requires justice and the one who also satisfies that justice and declares forensically righteous those who have faith in Jesus.

There is a problem in your text with the following not being in the text:
showing us why,
vindicated the holiness of Jesus Christ,
who is himself holy and imparts holiness.
 
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Clare73

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First of all let me apologize because I completely messed up that last post because I had to stop mid post to do something at work and when I came back to finish it I completely reversed what I was originally trying to say. Let me clarify my position please. Atonement or at least the Greek word used in Romans 5:11 refers to reconciliation or justification, it is not used in reference to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It can’t be used interchangeably
Atonement (hilasterion) is the "cover" of the Ark on which the blood was sprinkled for cleansing on the Day of Atonement.

In Ro 3:25, "by his blood" is in immediate connection with "propitiation."
Christ through his atoning death on the cross is the (Personal) means by whom God shows the mercy of his justifying grace to the sinner who believes.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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My exposition of Ro 3:25-26:

Christ's sacrifice was to:
1) demonstrate he is just, in two regards:
----a) for the sins committed beforehand (by the OT saints) that in his forbearance he had left unpunished,
----b) for the sins committed at the present time, (in both cases) so as to be just, and
2) to be the justifier, to be the one who (both) exacts/requires justice and the one who also satisfies that justice and declares forensically righteous those who have faith in Jesus.
You wrote: "for the sins committed beforehand (by the OT saints)" but this is supposition. Beforehand does not imply old testament saints.
The colour coding that you applied to my post is confusing because you offered no explanation of what the colours are intended to mean.
 
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Clare73

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You wrote: "for the sins committed beforehand (by the OT saints)" but this is supposition. Beforehand does not imply old testament saints.
It does when the cross is the reference point in regard to paying for sin. . .before cross were unpaid for until the cross, after cross are paid.
The colour coding that you applied to my post is confusing because you offered no explanation of what the colours are intended to mean.
Oops!. . .they identify the parallel phrases in the texts. . .for seeing the differences among the same phrases.
Was hoping it would help locate the discrepancies in your text.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Atonement (hilasterion) is the "cover" of the Ark on which the blood was sprinkled for cleansing on the Day of Atonement.

In Ro 3:25, "by his blood" is in immediate connection with "propitiation."
Christ through his atoning death on the cross is the (Personal) means by whom God shows the mercy of his justifying grace to the sinner who believes.
The word atonement only exists in one verse in the NT. Romans 5:11. Propitiation is the payment or offering that was made for our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. Atonement is our reconciliation to God, our justification which is exclusive to those who have embraced Christ. Atonement and propitiation are not the same thing.
 
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Mark Quayle

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It should not surprise you that one can both quote the verses one intends to comment upon and also provide one's commentary.
It doesn't. What has that to do with what we are talking about?
 
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Clare73

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The word atonement only exists in one verse in the NT.
So?. . .how many times must the word of God state it before it is true?

The word trinity exists in no verse in the NT.
Romans 5:11. Propitiation is the payment or offering that was made for our sins, and not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. Atonement is our reconciliation to God, our justification which is exclusive to those who have embraced Christ. Atonement and propitiation are not the same thing.
Atonement is not reconciliation, it is propitiation, expiation, satisfaction. . .the result of which satisfaction is reconciliation.

If you are thinking atonement means at-one-ment with God, that is pure fancy.

The corresponding NT word for "atonement" in Lev 16 and 17 (Heb: kaphar) is Gr: hilasterion (Ro 3:25, Heb 9:5) and Gr: hilasmos (1 Jn 2:2, 1 Jn 4:10), the "mercy-seat" covering the Ark of the Covenant .

Atonement is propitiation: the means, in and through the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ in his death on the cross by the shedding of his blood in his vicarious sacrifice for sin, by which God can show mercy to sinners.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Why do you insert your views into a conversation that does not include you?
Because, it concerns me. It's on the forum. Why does it bother you? I took a shower just this morning!
 
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Mark Quayle

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It seems to me the egg was never available.
Ok
I can't see how this would be similar to the atonement being available for all.
I say what I did as a concession to the use many people make of certain verses. If they want to say that God made people able to choose to accept or reject him apart from his work in their heart, since he died "for" them all, I've argued the "for" till I'm blue in the face. So I try to demonstrate a way even their arrangement still doesn't mean he paid for the sins of absolutely everyone. So: In a sense, yes, the atonement is made 'for' everyone; they do, after all, choose to reject it...
 
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Mark Quayle

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I don’t see how this analogy can be used in the situation of Christ’s sacrifice because His sacrifice was for the whole world. So this would be more like dad cooking eggs for the whole family but he only made some of them like eggs? Then why did he cook eggs for the whole family?
He didn't. The Scriptures do not say that he did.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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discrepancies in your text.
You flatter me to suggest that I am the translator who produced the text quoted in my posts. It is, of course, not mine. It is the work of Ronald Knox.
 
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