I have recently become convinced pews are a major problem

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Regardless of what denomination, only the Russian Orthodox have it right. Pews promote division among members, laziness, inactivity, etc. Does anyone else see this as big a deal as me? If Lutheranism is to really reclaim Orthodoxy as it was trying to with their dialogues with Constantinople and separating from Rome, how can the modern divine service overlook such an obvious thing....

The Liturgical Effectiveness of Pews

The History of Pews Is Just as Terrible and Embarrassing as You'd Imagine - Christ and Pop Culture

Despite the advent of stadium-style seating and auditorium-like worship halls, the simple, ancient pew endures.

christandpopculture.com

 

[Markie Boy]

I used to listen to, and still enjoy some times - Ancient Faith Radio - some incredible Orthodox teaching. They mentioned this very thing - we needed pews to listen to long, boring sermons.

BUT - I think the problem is deeper. We should always go back to Scripture for guidance. The Last Supper was a meal, and communion basically in the middle of it. In the Bible, it appears they kept the meal.

When did we drop the fellowship meal, and trade it for a wafer and a sip?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I used to listen to, and still enjoy some times - Ancient Faith Radio - some incredible Orthodox teaching. They mentioned this very thing - we needed pews to listen to long, boring sermons.

BUT - I think the problem is deeper. We should always go back to Scripture for guidance. The Last Supper was a meal, and communion basically in the middle of it. In the Bible, it appears they kept the meal.

When did we drop the fellowship meal, and trade it for a wafer and a sip?

Really early on. Justin Martyr wrote in the second century that, "Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands."

Immediately after the service, the antidoron, the leftover bread from the communion loaf, is distributed by the priest to anyone in attendance. Basically, with the change of the Eucharistic service from the evenings to Sunday mornings (also noted by Justin), the full meal pretty much disappeared from the actual liturgy.

 

[Markie Boy]

I love that the leftover bread is given and eaten. This is something I struggled with when I was in the Catholic church. The left over being kept, and then put in a monstrance to be "adored", or processed down the street. That's not what it was for.

If this was a continuation of the Passover - one of the rules was everything must be eaten - no left-overs.

The left over part then presented all kinds of other rules and rituals that are just problematic.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

This is the Orthodox prosphera. The very center (the Lamb) is cut out and used for communion itself. The priest or deacon will consume the remaining elements of wine and bread after the liturgy.

Everything else is cut into bite sized pieces and after the communion elements are consecrated, these pieces are blessed. If we have a lot left over, we bag them up and freeze them for the next Liturgy. For example, we have to use a new loaf even for a liturgy where few people are expected. If there are only a few pieces left with all the crumbs, we take those outside and toss them around the back of the church so no one walks on them but birds and wildlife will eat them.

The only time we reserve the actual Eucharist is once a year during Holy Week. An extra Lamb is set aside and then after the consecration, some wine is poured over the Lamb. Once it dries out, it is put in the monstrance and can be used throughout the year for hospital or hospice visits. We don't have anything like the Eucharistic vigils or a Corpus Christi festival but for those of us in church, we will cross ourselves when we enter and face the altar.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

As for pews, IHMO, standing for the entire service is a different experience. It can be chaotic for those not used to it though as children might be sitting on the floor and people who come in will wander a bit to reverence icons or say private prayers. When my LCMS family first attended our Greek Orthodox church, they were really annoyed by everyone milling around.

I'd much prefer a few pews for those who would have trouble standing or just need to sit down for a few minutes. As a chanter, I'm standing on a typical Sunday liturgy from 8:45 to 11:30. We have a small pew for the three of us to sit during the homily or during the readings of the epistle.

 

[JM]

Are pews adiaphora?

 

[Markie Boy]

Are pews adiaphora?

Boy I would think so. At the last supper they were reclining around a table it would seem. If anything it's the only example we have, and could follow that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Pews in my Church are fine; pews in the Anglican Church up the road are so uncomfortable that they hand out cushions on the way in, and even with these thin, foam pads, one is inspired to kneel or stand instead. 150 years ago, I can only imagine how many people had been completely crippled after sitting through the 2 hour sermons of it's day. My r's hurts just talking about it. LOL

 

[Shane R]

I am convinced most churches ought to remove the last 4 rows or so. Put some picnic blankets back there for the small children rather than shuffling them off to a separate room. Force the adults to sit close enough to see the liturgy without the aid of binoculars.

 

[JM]

I am convinced most churches ought to remove the last 4 rows or so. Put some picnic blankets back there for the small children rather than shuffling them off to a separate room. Force the adults to sit close enough to see the liturgy without the aid of binoculars.

Children should never be removed or sent from worship.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

I am convinced most churches ought to remove the last 4 rows or so. Put some picnic blankets back there for the small children rather than shuffling them off to a separate room. Force the adults to sit close enough to see the liturgy without the aid of binoculars.

Hey now, those last 4 pews are where we all sat when we needed to get out early to go to lunch!!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Regardless of what denomination, only the Russian Orthodox have it right. Pews promote division among members, laziness, inactivity, etc. Does anyone else see this as big a deal as me? If Lutheranism is to really reclaim Orthodoxy as it was trying to with their dialogues with Constantinople and separating from Rome, how can the modern divine service overlook such an obvious thing....

The Liturgical Effectiveness of Pews

The History of Pews Is Just as Terrible and Embarrassing as You'd Imagine - Christ and Pop Culture

Despite the advent of stadium-style seating and auditorium-like worship halls, the simple, ancient pew endures.

christandpopculture.com

Of all the things that I'd consider a serious subject, the presence or absence of pews really feels like it'd be at the very bottom of the list. Some things, in fact a lot of things, just don't matter. They are adiaphora, and somethings are like REALLY adiaphora.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Markie Boy]

I like that concept - adiaphora. I think it's largely why there is so much division.

 

[JM]

I like that concept - adiaphora. I think it's largely why there is so much division.

Adiaphora can be misused. I'm thinking of how the church uses liturgy to worship but some Lutherans have done away with liturgy and look like modern evangelicals with concert like worship. This style of worship is based on pietism and revivalism which is not historic and not Lutheran.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Adiaphora can be misused. I'm thinking of how the church uses liturgy to worship but some Lutherans have done away with liturgy and look like modern evangelicals with concert like worship. This style of worship is based on pietism and revivalism which is not historic and not Lutheran.

yea indeed. that's one of the reasons why I am more a fit for the lcms but I'm not a fan of the Jesus statues. I would prefer more educational icons instead to adorn the interior than a statue

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

yea indeed. that's one of the reasons why I am more a fit for the lcms but I'm not a fan of the Jesus statues. I would prefer more educational icons instead to adorn the interior than a statue

I like it all!!!

 

[FireDragon76]

Pews actually became a thing right around the time of the Reformation. The idea was sitting and listening to long sermons was important. Before, if there was a sermon at all, it usually only lasted ten or fifteen minutes. In America, Puritanism and the English Reformation had an outside influence on American religion, regardless of denomination (you can even find pews now in non-Christian religions, such as some Jewish or Buddhist temples).

You can still see some old European cathedrals that don't have pews, and in the recent past they would have large services where people just came and stood throughout the service. Especially if it was a holiday and the service would be packed.