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Is the Father still greater than the Son and is Jesus knowledge still limited?

zoidar

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son and if Jesus knowledge is still limited. When Jesus was walking here on Earth, he mentioned one thing he didn't know. Why would Jesus knowledge be limited on Earth but not now in heaven? What would be the point of limiting Jesus knowledge for a few years and then have his knowledge restored? And if Jesus doesn't know everything, will that idea bring harm to the teaching of the Trinity?

Anyone know what the Early Church taught in these matters?

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
— John 14:28

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
— Matthew 24:36
 
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Benjamin Müller

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Does a Father ever lose his authority because his children become adults?

In short, yes the Father is still greater than Christ. To which of the angels did he ever say, You are my son today I have begotten you and again, I shall be to Him a Father and he will be to me a son.

Read Hebrews 1

And I have never believed in the Trinity, so I don't think I can really give comment about Jesus Christ being limited in knowledge bringing harm to the trinity doctrine.

As far as I can understand it, when Jesus Christ became spirit (again) and he and his father are one, they could share information back and forth like sending files to different devices via Bluetooth. (lol--that's just an analogy obviously. I'm mortal and ignorant of God's glory and just wrapping my mind around it best way I can) But if God does not desire Jesus Christ to know something in particular, he just doesn't pass the information along.
 
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Neogaia777

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son and if Jesus knowledge is still limited. When Jesus was walking here on Earth, he mentioned one thing he didn't know. Why would Jesus knowledge be limited on Earth but not now in heaven? What would be the point of limiting Jesus knowledge for a few years and then have his knowledge restored? And if Jesus doesn't know everything, will that idea bring harm to the teaching of the Trinity?

Anyone know what the Early Church taught in these matters?

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
— John 14:28

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
— Matthew 24:36
He went to where the Highest Father always was/is, and knows all probably by now, but we will not have access to all of that, or Him "fully" until He returns. Because in the meantime, we Have God the Holy Spirit, who is everything God in the OT was/is, and is also everything Jesus was before Jesus left here, or ascended to where the Highest Father always was/is.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son and if Jesus knowledge is still limited. When Jesus was walking here on Earth, he mentioned one thing he didn't know. Why would Jesus knowledge be limited on Earth but not now in heaven? What would be the point of limiting Jesus knowledge for a few years and then have his knowledge restored? And if Jesus doesn't know everything, will that idea bring harm to the teaching of the Trinity?

Anyone know what the Early Church taught in these matters?

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
— John 14:28

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
— Matthew 24:36
John 13:16. Yeshua is the servant, the shamash, sent by The Father. Matthew 24:36 is regarding the ancient Jewish wedding. The groom (Yeshua) returns to His Father's house to prepare a place for His bride...sound familiar (John 14:2-6)? Then when His Father deems it ready, He sends The Son to return for His bride. So only The Father knows when that would occur.
 
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BBAS 64

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John 13:16. Yeshua is the servant, the shamash, sent by The Father. Matthew 24:36 is regarding the ancient Jewish wedding. The groom (Yeshua) returns to His Father's house to prepare a place for His bride...sound familiar (John 14:2-6)? Then when His Father deems it ready, He sends The Son to return for His bride. So only The Father knows when that would occur.
Good Day,

Agreed... as the Son in the Father son relationship consistent with Jewish norms (context) that is correct IMHO.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Bob Crowley

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I believe in the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I think the Father is the "senior partner", but Christ was God in the flesh.

Because He had taken on human form, He would have been limited in many ways. It was obvious He knew a lot more than the people around Him, but He was "surprised" on at least one occasion. He was hot, tired and thirsty after the walk to Sychar when He talked with the Samaritan woman.

He also said He didn't know the time or day of the Second Coming, and that only the Father knew which implies the Holy Spirit doesn't know either.

But once He returned to His full Godhead following His Ascension, He would have resumed His full share of the power and knowledge of the Godhead.

It would seem that there are some things (or maybe only one thing) the Father keeps to Himself. I suspect that has to do with the war between God and the devil - the devil may have some sort of legal hold which means the Father keeps that date to Himself.

And of course He doesn't want us to know - He prefers that we remain in a kind of ignorant tension. Put it this way - if God turned up tomorrow and said with divine honesty "The Second Coming won't be until 25th December in the year 2545!" I wonder what we and our desendants would do up until around the year 2500?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son and if Jesus knowledge is still limited. When Jesus was walking here on Earth, he mentioned one thing he didn't know. Why would Jesus knowledge be limited on Earth but not now in heaven? What would be the point of limiting Jesus knowledge for a few years and then have his knowledge restored? And if Jesus doesn't know everything, will that idea bring harm to the teaching of the Trinity?

Anyone know what the Early Church taught in these matters?

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
— John 14:28

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
— Matthew 24:36
We can't ignore Isaiah 9:6. All one means just that so He always knows. However, He was made temporarily lower than the angels while in the flesh.
Blessings.

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Hebrews 2:7

It has been testified somewhere,
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good Day,

Agreed... as the Son in the Father son relationship consistent with Jewish norms (context) that is correct IMHO.

In Him,

Bill
That, to my thinking, well reflects the notion of 'Trinity' as opposed to 'Three Gods'.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son

Forgive me, but the question itself is predicated on a theological error. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, being God the Son, the Divine Logos. He is, to quote the Nicene Creed, part of the Christian Forums Statement of Faith , of one essence with the Father, begotten of the Father before all ages, very God from very God. Please read the Christian Forums Statement of Faith as it provides scripture verses in support of each statement in the Nicene Creed.

Now, the fundamental error in your question is to ask if the Father is “still greater than the Son.” Holy Scripture identifies God as unchanging and immutable, and the doctrine of the Trinity is that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal, coeternal and consubstantial. The three persons share one divine essence, while each posessing their own hypostasis (a complex Greek word that literally means “understanding,” but in the context of the Trinity it refers to the distinct underlying reality of each person).

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, is coequal with and coeternal to God the Father, but also became fully Man at the Incarnation. Thus His humanity and divinity are united hypostatically, which makes Him the Incarnate Word of God. Furthermore, the Chalcedonian, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian churches all agree that His humanity and divinity are without change, confusion, separation, or division. They are distinct, and not confused, but united, and not separate or divisible.

The respect in which one could say the Father is superior to Christ is to say that the uncreated Divine Nature, which Jesus shares with the Father, is superior to the created Human nature, and while Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are uncreated, coequal and coeternal with the Father, the Father alone is unoriginate. However, in terms of their divinity, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are coequal, and it was by Christ our God that all things were made (John 1:2).

Our Lord desires that we make ourselves an icon of the Trinity, in the Gospel of John praying that we might be one, just as He and the Father are one. And if we see Christ we have seen the Father.

Of particular Trinitarian importance are John 1:1-17 and John 14:1-11.

and if Jesus knowledge is still limited.

Because Jesus Christ is fully God, in His deity he is omniscient, just as the Father is omniscient.

My friends @ViaCrucis @Jipsah @prodromos @MarkRohfrietsch @HTacianas @Shane R @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @Valletta and @dzheremi are particularly well versed in Trinitarian theology. I suggest posing any further questions pertaining to the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity to them.

We collectively share a concern about the growing lack of theological literacy concerning the Trinity among many Christians, which is leading to many people inadvertantly subscribing to Arianism, which is the heresy that denies the deity of Christ and His consubstantiality with the Father, or Macedonianism , the related heresy which denies the deity and unique personal identity of the Holy Spirit, and Nestorianism, a severe theological error which while I suppose nominally compatible with Nicene Christianity, causes severe confusion by separating and dividing the deity and humanity of Christ, which are distinct but undivided and inseparable in Chalcedonian and Oriental Orthodox Christology.
Arianism I would note is also the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and to support their heretical belief they published their own “translation”, the New World Bible, in which John 1:1 is intentionally modified, as that text alone is sufficient to refute Arianism. Indeed the denial of the Trinity in one form or another is a unifying belief of all the cults, including Mormonism (the Mormons are Tritheists, believing the persons of the Trinity are three gods, and believe in more gods than that if one explores the greater depths of their theology), Christian Science, Unitarianism, etc.
 
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The Liturgist

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But once He returned to His full Godhead following His Ascension, He would have resumed His full share of the power and knowledge of the Godhead.
Forgive me, but it is an error to say that Christ became human temporarily, only to revert to being God, and likewise the miracles He worked prove His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment, nor a twinkling of an eye.

Both the Oriental Orthodox churches, which include the persecuted Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Indiann and Ehiopian churches and the much larger and more nuk ous Chalcedonian churches, which include the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed/Calvinist, Methodist, Baptist and most other denominations, affirm that the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ are perpetually united from the time of His incarnation without change, confusion, division or separation.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Forgive me, but it is an error to say that Christ became human temporarily, only to revert to being God, and likewise the miracles He worked prove His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment, nor a twinkling of an eye.

Both the Oriental Orthodox churches, which include the persecuted Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Indiann and Ehiopian churches and the much larger and more nuk ous Chalcedonian churches, which include the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed/Calvinist, Methodist, Baptist and most other denominations, affirm that the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ are perpetually united from the time of His incarnation without change, confusion, division or separation.
At the Transfiguration of our Lord, we see his full divinity is ever present.

Now, regarding the Trinity; it seems that our Canadian Government may well wish to disregard this doctrine as well. Following their "woke" agenda of (yes, this is on topic) disarming the public, their strategy has always been to divide and conquer by implementing controversial policies to deflect from their sliding in new regulations regarding the disarming; distracting the general public.

One of these "smoke screen" items is changing our Countries coat of arms; this the same week as HRH Charles III was crowned, and the British Crown is (was) the Crown of Canada.

Note the one on the left; the predominant features are the Cross of St. Edward on top of the orb which is a symbol of the authority of the Trinitarian authority over the whole world; divided in three parts. In the old crown, three crosses and two Flur de lies are quite visible. The crosses are depicting the trinity, as do the Flur de lies.

Now, moving to the one on the right side, you will see that all of the crosses, the orb and the Flur de Lies are gon, in their place we have maple leaves, and on the top, instead of the orb and cross, our PM as placed a self portrait a Snow-flake.

It is with great shame and embarrassment that I share this here.

We must uphold, as Christians, the Holy Trinity despite the world and the devil trying to get the world to despise this most basic of truths.

Also note, the the three lilies on the shield of Canada and on the one flag, are the "national symbols of Quebec"; removing the them would be political suicide.

Also is a photo of King Charles III with the actual crown, mace and orb. God Save the King!

1683885154490.png

1683885942911.png
1683886029395.png
 
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zoidar

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Forgive me, but the question itself is predicated on a theological error. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, being God the Son, the Divine Logos. He is, to quote the Nicene Creed, part of the Christian Forums Statement of Faith , of one essence with the Father, begotten of the Father before all ages, very God from very God. Please read the Christian Forums Statement of Faith as it provides scripture verses in support of each statement in the Nicene Creed.

Now, the fundamental error in your question is to ask if the Father is “still greater than the Son.” Holy Scripture identifies God as unchanging and immutable, and the doctrine of the Trinity is that God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal, coeternal and consubstantial. The three persons share one divine essence, while each posessing their own hypostasis (a complex Greek word that literally means “understanding,” but in the context of the Trinity it refers to the distinct underlying reality of each person).

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, is coequal with and coeternal to God the Father, but also became fully Man at the Incarnation. Thus His humanity and divinity are united hypostatically, which makes Him the Incarnate Word of God. Furthermore, the Chalcedonian, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian churches all agree that His humanity and divinity are without change, confusion, separation, or division. They are distinct, and not confused, but united, and not separate or divisible.

The respect in which one could say the Father is superior to Christ is to say that the uncreated Divine Nature, which Jesus shares with the Father, is superior to the created Human nature, and while Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are uncreated, coequal and coeternal with the Father, the Father alone is unoriginate. However, in terms of their divinity, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are coequal, and it was by Christ our God that all things were made (John 1:2).

Our Lord desires that we make ourselves an icon of the Trinity, in the Gospel of John praying that we might be one, just as He and the Father are one. And if we see Christ we have seen the Father.

Of particular Trinitarian importance are John 1:1-17 and John 14:1-11.



Because Jesus Christ is fully God, in His deity he is omniscient, just as the Father is omniscient.

My friends @ViaCrucis @Jipsah @prodromos @MarkRohfrietsch @HTacianas @Shane R @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @Valletta and @dzheremi are particularly well versed in Trinitarian theology. I suggest posing any further questions pertaining to the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity to them.

We collectively share a concern about the growing lack of theological literacy concerning the Trinity among many Christians, which is leading to many people inadvertantly subscribing to Arianism, which is the heresy that denies the deity of Christ and His consubstantiality with the Father, or Macedonianism , the related heresy which denies the deity and unique personal identity of the Holy Spirit, and Nestorianism, a severe theological error which while I suppose nominally compatible with Nicene Christianity, causes severe confusion by separating and dividing the deity and humanity of Christ, which are distinct but undivided and inseparable in Chalcedonian and Oriental Orthodox Christology.
Arianism I would note is also the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and to support their heretical belief they published their own “translation”, the New World Bible, in which John 1:1 is intentionally modified, as that text alone is sufficient to refute Arianism. Indeed the denial of the Trinity in one form or another is a unifying belief of all the cults, including Mormonism (the Mormons are Tritheists, believing the persons of the Trinity are three gods, and believe in more gods than that if one explores the greater depths of their theology), Christian Science, Unitarianism, etc.
I don't deny the Trinity in any way. I don't think you believe that either? And I'm certainly not holding to Arianism. The other "isms" you mention I'm not familiar with yet.

Jesus own words are that the Father is greater than him and knows things (at least one thing) he doesn't. So that is true, whatever that means. That is what I was refering to. You didn't explain how it is Jesus doesn't know the time of his return.

Thanks for giving me the names, who I can turn to if I have questions about the Trinity! God bless!
 
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dzheremi

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At the Transfiguration of our Lord, we see his full divinity is ever present.

Now, regarding the Trinity; it seems that our Canadian Government may well wish to disregard this doctrine as well. Following their "woke" agenda of (yes, this is on topic) disarming the public, their strategy has always been to divide and conquer by implementing controversial policies to deflect from their sliding in new regulations regarding the disarming; distracting the general public.

One of these "smoke screen" items is changing our Countries coat of arms; this the same week as HRH Charles III was crowned, and the British Crown is (was) the Crown of Canada.

Note the one on the left; the predominant features are the Cross of St. Edward on top of the orb which is a symbol of the authority of the Trinitarian authority over the whole world; divided in three parts. In the old crown, three crosses and two Flur de lies are quite visible. The crosses are depicting the trinity, as do the Flur de lies.

Now, moving to the one on the right side, you will see that all of the crosses, the orb and the Flur de Lies are gon, in their place we have maple leaves, and on the top, instead of the orb and cross, our PM as placed a self portrait a Snow-flake.

It is with great shame and embarrassment that I share this here.

We must uphold, as Christians, the Holy Trinity despite the world and the devil trying to get the world to despise this most basic of truths.

Also note, the the three lilies on the shield of Canada and on the one flag, are the "national symbols of Quebec"; removing the them would be political suicide.

Also is a photo of King Charles III with the actual crown, mace and orb. God Save the King!

View attachment 331016

The snowflake replacement-cross thing is hideous (as are the maple leaves in place of the cross and fleur de lies), but if I squint at it hard enough, and maybe lay down and take a nap for a while to calm myself down, I can almost see it as a kind of very stylized representation of the particular type of "3D" cross that you can sometimes see atop Coptic Orthodox churches and monasteries in Egypt (I've also seen pictures of them on top of Syriac Orthodox churches in Iraq and Syria, though I don't know if they're used outside of the MENA region), which are as they are so that the person approaching the building will see the regular "2D" image of the cross whether they come to the building from the front, back, or the sides. This can result in the image of a five-pointed cross if captured from an angle not in line with the cardinal directions, as below:

coptic-cross-218x300.jpg
 
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Divide

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I think it's a good question to ask if the Father is still greater than the Son and if Jesus knowledge is still limited. When Jesus was walking here on Earth, he mentioned one thing he didn't know. Why would Jesus knowledge be limited on Earth but not now in heaven? What would be the point of limiting Jesus knowledge for a few years and then have his knowledge restored? And if Jesus doesn't know everything, will that idea bring harm to the teaching of the Trinity?

Anyone know what the Early Church taught in these matters?

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
— John 14:28

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
— Matthew 24:36

This is a good question. First when Jesus was on earth, He was a man, all man. In order for Him to justly redeem us He had to do it as a man. He had a God that was looking over Him, because He had excellant earthly parents. I think that Jesus developed His relationship with God the Father when He was young. By the time He started His ministry, Jesus was probably walking under an open heaven.

Scripture says that Jesus, the Son does not know the date of the Rapture. If He is all God and man why don't He know this? I believe that's a simple one to answer. Only the Father knows, the Angels do not know not even the Son...That's just God keeping His options open. I don't think the Father has picked a date yet, that He decided that He will know when it is time. So depending on the state of the world, one day the Father is going to sit up and say, Enough is Enough! Time...

But what if God had done the rapture on December 31st 1999? I'm sure a lot of people were looking forward to it at that time! But! How many more people do you think has been save between then and now because the rapture didn't happen then? Bigger Harvest for the Lord! Smart!

That's what I think. Jesus didn't know only because it is still undecided for sure. I think it is still undecided too, so Jesus still don't know the date of the rapture!
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus also didn't know if those who are going to be saved/will be saved/would be saved would be many or few also.

But, he also knew certain things none of us could know also, like when and where a fish would be that just so happened at that specific time to have a coin in it's mouth that Peter could catch, and where an unridden untamed donkey would be tied up to a post in another town when his apostles/disciples got there that the owner would let them take, and when and where they could find a man carrying a water pot that his apostles/disciples could follow outside right at that time to go to the upper room where they would have the last supper, things like that, etcetera, which shows some kind of some omniscience/great knowledge/insight/foresight at least, but he also did say that the Father God was greater than he (Jesus) was while he (Jesus) was here, and I can only guess that that is in the area of full total omniscience, and maybe in having that all totally in full maybe, from the very, very beginning maybe.

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus also didn't know if those who are going to be saved/will be saved/would be saved would be many or few also.

But, he also knew certain things none of us could know also, like when and where a fish would be that just so happened at that specific time to have a coin in it's mouth that Peter could catch, and where an unridden untamed donkey would be tied up to a post in another town when his apostles/disciples got there that the owner would let them take, and when and where they could find a man carrying a water pot that his apostles/disciples could follow outside right at that time to go to the upper room where they would have the last supper, things like that, etcetera, which shows some kind of some omniscience/great knowledge/insight/foresight at least, but he also did say that the Father God was greater than he (Jesus) was while he (Jesus) was here, and I can only guess that that is in the area of full total omniscience, and maybe in having that all totally in full maybe, from the very, very beginning maybe.

God Bless!
Proving that Jesus didn't necessarily need his physical eyes to see a lot of things, that he already knew when/where/how certain things were going to happen, or where they already were, or where they were going to be, but also basically said that his knowledge/foreknowledge/insight/foresight was not as great or as extensive as his/ours Heavenly Father's was, or is, or always has been, or always was/forever would be, etc.

God Bless!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Scripture says that Jesus, the Son does not know the date of the Rapture. If He is all God and man why don't He know this? I believe that's a simple one to answer. Only the Father knows, the Angels do not know not even the Son...That's just God keeping His options open. I don't think the Father has picked a date yet, that He decided that He will know when it is time. So depending on the state of the world, one day the Father is going to sit up and say, Enough is Enough! Time...
I already explained that in post 4 of this thread...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Jesus own words are that the Father is greater than him and knows things (at least one thing) he doesn't. So that is true, whatever that means. That is what I was refering to. You didn't explain how it is Jesus doesn't know the time of his return.
I already explained that in post 4...
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus also didn't know if those who are going to be saved/will be saved/would be saved would be many or few also.

But, he also knew certain things none of us could know also, like when and where a fish would be that just so happened at that specific time to have a coin in it's mouth that Peter could catch, and where an unridden untamed donkey would be tied up to a post in another town when his apostles/disciples got there that the owner would let them take, and when and where they could find a man carrying a water pot that his apostles/disciples could follow outside right at that time to go to the upper room where they would have the last supper, things like that, etcetera, which shows some kind of some omniscience/great knowledge/insight/foresight at least, but he also did say that the Father God was greater than he (Jesus) was while he (Jesus) was here, and I can only guess that that is in the area of full total omniscience, and maybe in having that all totally in full maybe, from the very, very beginning maybe.

God Bless!

Proving that Jesus didn't necessarily need his physical eyes to see a lot of things, that he already knew when/where/how certain things were going to happen, or where they already were, or where they were going to be, but also basically said that his knowledge/foreknowledge/insight/foresight was not as great or as extensive as his/ours Heavenly Father's was, or is, or always has been, or always was/forever would be, etc.

God Bless!
And about the end times or last days, while Jesus did not know the exact time or date specifically, but said that only the Heavenly Father did, or always has, etc, Jesus did know of a lot of the the things that would happen, or would be going on, or would need to be happening in the world, or many specific events, that he did know a lot about almost fully, etc.

God Bless!
 
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zoidar

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And about the end times or last days, while Jesus did not know the exact time or date specifically, but said that only the Heavenly Father did, Jesus did know of a lot of the the things that would happen, or would be going on, or would need to be happening in the world, or many specific events, that he did know a lot about almost fully, etc.

God Bless!
Yes, that is the thing. Jesus knew just about everything except the time of his return it seem.
 
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