WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

[BobRyan]

I think you misunderstood the context. Luther is not saying that we should keep Sabbath

Luther is claiming it was wrong for the RCC to change the Sabbath.

Interesting what Luther says about God's Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3

Martin Luther, The Creation, A Commentary on Genesis,” Vol. I, pp. 138-140
http://www.wolfmueller.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Genesis1-4Study.pdf

I am sure at least some - will agree with Martin Luther on some of his thoughts here --

=========== page 110 begin

GENESIS 2:​

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3. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.​

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"Christ says, Mark 2:27, that “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath”​

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"But Moses says nothing here about man. He does not even say positively that any commandment concerning the Sabbath was given to man. But what Moses here says is that God blessed the Sabbath and sanctified it to himself. It is moreover to be remarked that God did this to no other creature. God did not sanctify to himself the heaven nor the earth nor any other creature. But God did sanctify to himself the seventh day. This was especially designed of God, to cause us to understand that the “seventh day” is to be especially devoted to divine worship.​

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"For that which is appropriated to God and exclusively separated from all profane uses is sanctified or holy. Hence the expression “to sanctify, ” “to choose for divine uses or for the worship of God, ” is often applied by Moses to the sacred vessels of the sanctuary.​

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"It follows therefore from this passage, that if Adam had stood in his innocence and had not fallen he would yet have observed the “seventh day ” as sanctified, holy and sacred; that is, he would have taught his children and posterity on that day concerning the will and worship of God; he would have praised God, he would have given him thanks, and would have brought to him his offerings, etc., etc.​

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On the other days he would have tilled his land and attended to his cattle. Nay, even after the fall he held the “seventh day” sacred; that is, he taught on that day his own family. This is testified by the offerings made by his two sons, Cain and Abel.​

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The Sabbath therefore has, from the beginning of the world, been set apart for the worship of God. In this manner nature in its innocency, had it continued unfallen,would have proclaimed the glory and blessings of God. Men would have talked together on the Sabbath day concerning the goodness of their Creator, would have prayed to him,and would have brought to him their offerings, etc. For all these things are implied and signified in the expression “sanctified.”​

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Page 111​

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"Adam therefore, had he not fallen, would have lived a certain time in paradise, according to the length of time which God pleased; and afterwards he would have been carried away into that rest of God, which rest God willed not only to intimate unto man, but highly to commend unto him by this sanctification of the Sabbath. Thus had Adam not fallen his life would have been both animal and happy, and spiritual and eternal. But now we miserable men have lost all this felicity of the animal life by sin; and while we do live, we live in the midst of death.​

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"Yet since this command of God concerning the Sabbath is left to the Church, God signifies thereby that even that spiritual life shall be restored to us through Christ. Hence the prophets have all diligently searched into these passages, in which Moses obscurely indicates also the resurrection of the flesh and the life immortal​

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"Further by this sanctification of the Sabbath it is also plainly shown that man was especially created for the knowledge​

and worship of God. For the Sabbath was not instituted on account of sheep or oxen, but for the sake of men, that the​

knowledge of God might be exercised and increased by them on that sacred day. Although therefore man lost the​

knowledge of God by sin, yet God willed that his command concerning the sanctifying of the Sabbath should remain.​

He willed that on the seventh day both the Word should be preached, and also those other parts of his worship​

performed, which he himself instituted; to the end that by these appointed means we should first of all think solemnly​

on our condition in the world as men; that this nature of ours was created at first expressly for the knowledge and the​

glorifying of God; and also that by these same sacred means we might hold fast in our minds the sure hope of a future​

and eternal life.​

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The general term is applied to both groups in Lev 23 but in Col 2 Paul specifically points to the shadow sabbaths. -- those given in sacrifice and offerings - all of which end at the cross as we see in Heb 10:4-12.
__snip__
Because it is plural it is absolutely a reference to the Lev 23 list of Sabbaths - and because Col 2 specifies it as a shadow (a predictive ceremony pointing to the cross) - it refers to the Sabbaths that end at the cross since they were initially given in animal sacrifice and offerings that Paul says are ended at the cross in Heb 10:4-12

I just took a look at Lev 23 which you state are a list of Sabbaths. Did you not notice that the weekly sabbath on the 7th day is first on the list? Lev 23:3. So, yes, you just proved the point that ALL sabbaths are identical in import and purpose.

 

[BobRyan]

I just took a look at Lev 23 which you state are a list of Sabbaths. Did you not notice that the weekly sabbath on the 7th day is first on the list? Lev 23:3.

Yes this is one of the reasons I agreed in my prior response to your post that the term can apply to all of them in terms of "holy day of convocation" - but then point to the fact that in Col 2 Paul specifically singles out "Shadow" ceremonies that specifically predict Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Their inception was in animal sacrifices that Paul says - in Heb 10:4-12 - end at the cross.

So, yes, you just proved the point that ALL sabbaths are identical in import and purpose.

No I did not. I proved that all can be called Sabbath or days of holy convocation but that the 7th day Sabbath , the weekly Sabbath alone is in the unit of TEN spoken by God, and it alone is given without any predictive animal sacrifice and offering shadows pointing to Christ on the cross. Paul adds this detail in Col 2 - showing us that he is speaking of those shadow Sabbaths.

Meanwhile "every Sabbath" Paul is preaching the Gospel to both Jews and gentiles - even to believers Acts 18:4.

 

[expos4ever]

There is nothing wrong with eating food on the Sabbath. Eating food is not work (ie they were not harvesting), eating food is a human and animal necessity.

But they were harvesting in addition to eating:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

You appear to be evading the thrust of my argument. Again, in the Exodus account, the people are not allowed to harvest on the Sabbath, although, of course, they were allowed to eat.

Picking grains is harvesting, by any reasonable definition.

In any event, look at what Matthew writes after the above words:

But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions— 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the [b]consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 Or have you not read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple [c]violate the Sabbath, and yet are innocent?

You are saying that Jesus could not have violated the Sabbath as that would make Him a sinner. But from Jesus' own lips we hear examples of people who violate the Sabbath and yet are deemed to be "innocent".

How do you reconcile this with your position that if Jesus broke the Sabbath, He had to be a sinner?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Yes this is one of the reasons I agreed in my prior response to your post that the term can apply to all of them in terms of "holy day of convocation" - but then point to the fact that in Col 2 Paul specifically singles out "Shadow" ceremonies that specifically predict Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Their inception was in animal sacrifices that Paul says - in Heb 10:4-12 - end at the cross.

No I did not. I proved that all can be called Sabbath or days of holy convocation but that the 7th day Sabbath , the weekly Sabbath alone is in the unit of TEN spoken by God, and it alone is given without any predictive animal sacrifice and offering shadows pointing to Christ on the cross. Paul adds this detail in Col 2 - showing us that he is speaking of those shadow Sabbaths.

Meanwhile "every Sabbath" Paul is preaching the Gospel to both Jews and gentiles - even to believers Acts 18:4.

I think you need to look again at the passages you are using as your supposed proof texts. What even are "shadow sabbaths"? That's a made up term. Paul doesn't use that anywhere in his writings.

You want to make a distinction between the sabbaths during the prescribed feast days and the weekly sabbath. Colossians 2:16 just does not provide evidence for that. Paul separately calls out "feasts" and then lastly "sabbaths" (plural). The term "sabbaths" is separate from feasts. If he meant to include just feast sabbaths he would have put that when he referred to feasts. But since he listed sabbaths (plural) at the end of the list, he meant ALL sabbaths - the weekly along with the feast sabbaths.

And then you claim the weekly Sabbath was the only one without animal sacrifices. Again, take another look at Lev 23. The Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Booths ALL have no prescribed animal sacrifices whatsoever. And if you want to claim that food offerings somehow pointed to Christ's death, you would be very much in error. In the vast majority where food offerings are mentioned they are to be "a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD".

I can't understand this arbitrary distinction with the weekly sabbath and the feast sabbaths. I must be missing something that this is somehow important to whatever you are trying to prove. As I said, the Judaizers in Paul's day wanted to guilt people into following their particular golden calf elements of the Law. Paul says in Colossians that we should not allow people to rob us "by philosophy and empty deception according to the teachings of men".

 

[expos4ever]

It’s referring to the annual sabbath(s) ordinances that have to do with food and drink offerings, not the weekly Sabbath commandment, God’s holy day.

How do know this? It certainly seems you are imposing something on the text:

Therefore, no one is to [p]act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath [q]day—

The "or" establishes a clear separation between "food and drink" and Sabbath observance.

 

[expos4ever]

I think you need to look again at the passages you are using as your supposed proof texts. What even are "shadow sabbaths"? That's a made up term. Paul doesn't use that anywhere in his writings.
You want to make a distinction between the sabbaths during the prescribed feast days and the weekly sabbath. Colossians 2:16 just does not provide evidence for that. Paul separately calls out "feasts" and then lastly "sabbaths" (plural). The term "sabbaths" is separate from feasts.

Bingo.

 

[Leaf473]

We have had this discussion many times and while it may be fruitless to repeat it to you, perhaps others who are following can evaluate my position on this.

People, like you, who insist that the 10 commandments are still in force often make the kind of argument you are making - that if one is going to say the 10 are set aside, then one must, by implication, believe that coveting (or murder, or adultery) are all Ok since these behaviours are proscribed by the 10 commandments.

The counterargument is that with the indwelling Holy Spirit, we have a new source for moral guidance - the Spirit replaces the Law. The fact that, obviously, the Spirit is not going to say "go ahead and covet thy neighbour's donkey" does not mean the commandment against coveting is still in place. The content of what the Spirit says about coveting and what the Law says about coveting may be the same. But that does not mean we are under the jurisdiction of the 10 commandments!

Analogy: I am a Canadian and therefore subject to Canadian law, not American law. Both Canadian Law and America Law consider murder to be illegal, but this surely does not mean that American Law applies to me!

To make the analogy explicit. For me,

Canadian law = the indwelling Spirit
American law = the 10 commandments

Both Canadian and American law say the same thing about murder - just like both the Spirit and the 10 commandments say the same thing about coveting - but this obviously does not mean that I, a Canadian, am under American law.

Makes sense to me I've been thinking about putting it this way, maybe it would click with our friends here:

I have a rule that no one is allowed to use profanity here on this thread.

I see that no one has used profanity here on this thread.

I'm glad that everyone is acknowledging that my rule is in effect for them.

________________
The above is obviously absurd. Yet, it is the reasoning of "You don't murder, the ten commandments say don't murder, therefore you are acknowledging that the ten commandments are in effect
for you."

 

[Leaf473]

Until you read the actual book of 1 John.

1 John 5:3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" -- pretty obvious that the context in the book is "The Commandments of God".

Pretty obvious in Eph 6:2 that "The first COMMANDMENT with a promise is "honor your father and mother"' - which is how the NT Saints would view that topic. Feel free to join them.

Some more commandments are given in Leviticus.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 27:34 - World English Bible

These are the commandments which Yahweh commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

And an interesting passage here,

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 2:23 - World English Bible

(as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”),

www.biblegateway.com

Today, we keep only some of the commandments, some of the law of God.

So yes, keep the commandments that apply to us today, and in the way that they apply

 

[DamianWarS]

Which He spoke before the cross - before anyone claims anything had been abolished. Even the animal sacrifice laws were in full effect then.

He spoke OT truth before the cross - that is still true to this very day.

It is "Good" for a carpenter to do a good job on the projects given him - but Christ was not doing carpentry on Sabbath and every competent Bible scholar on planet Earth knows it. We cannot conflate the fact that it is good for GOD to do Miracles on Sabbath - with doing a good job as a carpenter on Sabbath. This is not even a little bit confusing.

Jesus is referring to goodness in a moral sense, not in a qualitative sense.... or whatever bizarre spin that you've put on it. Suggesting I am conflating carpentry work, done with excellence, as a moral responsibility to the law is a bit misguided. God doing miracles on the Sabbath is good but leaving it and refusing to comment further is a very narrow view of the passage and I would suggest irresponsible as well as the passage is deep with meaning.

Christ intentionally uses a broader use of goodness to define his actions on the Sabbath and because it was good he calls it lawful. he uses the analogy of rescuing a fallen sheep on the Sabbath as worthy as a segue to show how much more valuable people are than sheep. He then heals the man's hand.

Sheep is a strong biblical image of those who are lost and found. There's even a whole parable on it (Mat 18). In the passage, he addresses the physical but the implications of the spiritual cannot be ignored. A 5 yr old probably could tell you what a fallen sheep in need of rescuing actually is talking about and it is no different in this passage. "doing good" is not about working hard at a job, it's about doing an action motivated to rescue fallen sheep. Sure, if you keep actual sheep then it means pulling physical sheep out of pits, but I would hope you understand the direction I'm going with this.

so is doing good carpentry work on the Sabbath good? it can be, so long as it's motivated by rescuing sheep. Let's reverse this for a moment. is it unlawful to ignore fallen sheep on the Sabbath? If it is, then there's a lot of lawful work to be done.

 

[Leaf473]

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" as applicable to Christians -- still

I'm glad you brought this up again. I believe one of the documents you frequently cite is Dies Domini by John Paul II.

That document contains the phrase Ten Commandments only once. As can be seen in the quote below, it's a "reinterpreted" fourth commandment.
_______________
62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.

 

[Leaf473]

And you admit that the text specifically lists "animal sacrifice and offerings".

Yes, the text clearly talks about animal sacrifices. I don't know why that would qualify as an admission

But sure...

The "slip sideways" is in the attempts to turn the text as if "Do not take God's name in vain" or any of the TEN Commandments were also shadows done away at the cross.

The law of Moses has a shadow.
Do not take God's name in vain is in the law of Moses.

Surely that is not the hard part of the point in the post? Surely not.

I don't think any part of either of our posts is hard.

Your claim that it is "changing scripture" in Heb 10 to notice that the text SPECIFICALLY speaks in context of animal sacrifice and offerings, then you have added a "do not notice the details in the text" restriction that no Bible scholars would agree with. We probably both know that.

Yes, animal sacrifices are in the text. Animal sacrifices are part of the law of Moses. The law of Moses has a shadow.

But what is missing from the text is something that says only animal sacrifices have a shadow.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" as still applicable for Christians

Well, the biggest denomination talks about it in a "reinterpreted" form.

 

[Leaf473]

I have addressed it.

The Lev 23 annual Sabbaths

The seventh day Sabbath is included in Leviticus 23. It is part of the law of Moses.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 23:3 - New American Standard Bible

‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

www.biblegateway.com

given in animal sacrifice and offerings from their very start - are shadows pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. But the Gen 2:1-3 weekly Sabbath pointed to in Ex 20:11 and kept for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth Is 66:23 is not part of the annual Sabbath's not given until Sinai.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" as still applicable to Christians not just the Bible Sabbath keeping ones

 

[Leaf473]

"shadow sabbaths"? Huh? Where does Paul even say that. I just read the word "sabbaths" (plural) in the text. There was absolutely no difference of any of the sabbaths that were called out in the Law of Moses. They all were days of rest and all were for holy convocations (assemblies). No difference.

True.

"Shadow Sabbaths"

"Shadow laws"

"Moral laws"

None of those are biblical terms.

 

[expos4ever]

Because of details in the text.

Read the book of 1 John and find "the commandments of God" are the context - 1 John 5:3.

And how do you know that these "commandments of God" necessarily include the 10 commandments?

Paul certainly did not think so:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [h]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

What is your response to this text? Are you going to say, as some do in obvious desperation, that we have only been released from the consequences of the Law?

If so, do you normally understand the concept of "release" in such an arbitrarily restrictive manner?

When someone is told "you have been released from your contract", does that person think they are still under obligation to obey the terms of said contract, and that they have only been "released" from the penalties of not doing so?

When a teenager is told they are released from the 9 PM curfew, does this mean they are still under moral obligation to be home by 9 and have only been released from any punishment for not doing so?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I have addressed it.

The Lev 23 annual Sabbaths given in animal sacrifice and offerings from their very start - are shadows pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. But the Gen 2:1-3 weekly Sabbath pointed to in Ex 20:11 and kept for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth Is 66:23 is not part of the annual Sabbath's not given until Sinai.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" as still applicable to Christians not just the Bible Sabbath keeping ones

If you are going to reference the sabbaths being kept in the Millennium (Day of the Lord), then you must also include all the other sabbaths and feasts that will be kept.

"It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel." Ez 45:17 (btw, notice that again the feasts and the sabbaths are separated out and it is plural "sabbaths" with no distinction being made of feast sabbaths and weekly sabbath.)

This was part of the vision of the Millennial temple that God showed to Ezekiel: "In visions of God he brought me to the land of Israel, and set me down on a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city to the south." Ez 40:2

You seem to say that Is 66:23 is talking about the New Earth. Actually, no. It is talking about the Day of the Lord the 1000 year reign of Christ. The "new earth" is given as a simile to compare the permanence of the people of God.

In addition, the "from sabbath to sabbath" in Is 66:23 is NOT referring to the weekly sabbath. It is the sabbath as part of the New Moon sabbath (beginning of each month). Isaiah often writes poetically and here he is doubling the same concept for emphasis.

This same doubling for emphasis occurs here:
Amos 8:5 "saying, “When will the new moon be over,
that we may sell grain?
And the Sabbath,
that we may offer wheat for sale,"

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Yes there is.

The Gen 2:1-3 Sabbath pointed to by Ex 20:11 had no animal sacrifices or offerings - it was before sin. And Ex 20:8-11 - the Sabbath commandment - also has no animal sacrifices or offerings listed for it.
...
But only one was not given in animal sacrifice and offerings -- all the others point to the cross in their inception in animal sacrifice and offerings.

This is absolutely incorrect. The weekly sabbath DID include animal sacrifices.
" On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering: this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

 

[expos4ever]

Released usually means released from its consequences. No penalty.

On what basis do you make this claim? It certainly seems to me that you are imposing a significant restriction on the meaning of the concept "to be released".

Here is a definition from a dictionary selected at random:

1. let someone leave
2. stop holding something
3. let something into area around
4. move held equipment
5. get rid of feeling
6. make something available
7. let someone not do something

Where is there anything here about a restriction to just the consequences?

Let's look at the word translated as "released" as defined in Strongs:

from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

The evidence is overwhelming - there is no warrant to restrict the meaning of "release" as you have.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is absolutely incorrect. The weekly sabbath DID include animal sacrifices.
" On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering: this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

There are no sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment you can see for yourself...

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Was there sacrifices that happened on the Sabbath day? Yes, there was sacrifices daily including the seventh day Sabbath because people sinned daily, Once Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin (breaking God's law) we go directly to Him when we have a change of heart and repent. This would also include praying to Jesus on the Sabbath when we sin instead of sacrificing animals.

 

[BobRyan]

This is absolutely incorrect. The weekly sabbath DID include animal sacrifices.

Not true in Genesis 2:1-3 - it is before the fall of mankind.

Not true in Exodus 20:8-11 - nothing there specifies animal sacrifice

Not true in Is 66:23 where in the New Earth - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down".

This means that the ending of animal sacrifice and offering in Heb 10:4-12 - still leaves the Genesis 2:1-3 Sabbath - day of holy convocation and rest - as it was in Eden. It still leaves the Is 58:13 restriction of no secular work. It still leaves the Lev 23:3 call for worship and holy convocation. And it continues in for all eternity after the cross for all mankind - even in the New Earth as we see in Is 66:23

" On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering: this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

No doubt sacrifices were added in Exodus - but that was not the inception of the sanctified holy day of the Lord - made holy in Gen 2:1-3