Dark Trinity - These are Evil Times

[iarwain]

I saw this video today and I thought it sounded very spot on for what is going on now in our society. Some might think it's kookiness, and I won't comment about that, but the results of what has happened is undeniable.

This guy's name is Jonathan Cahn. He says that when we tossed God out of the schools (and the culture) in the '60s, we set future generations up to grow up without God. He says a house does not remain empty, but rather if not filled with God, it will be filled with demons. Or dark gods, as he says here. He says that the first of the gods that have taken over America is Ba'al the Possessor, who brings the worship of money and possessions, and is exemplified by the bronze bull statue on Wall Street in New York.

Then there is the Enchantress, who goes by different names such as Ishtar and Aphrodite. This is exemplified by the hookup culture, lust, and pornography that pervade the US now. And finally, there is the Destroyer, who demands child sacrifice, and can be seen in the millions of babies aborted in our country. Our children are also under attack in the schools as they try to sexualize and gender confuse them at a young age. These are evil times, you can feel it.

 

[BeyondET]

I saw this video today and I thought it sounded very spot on for what is going on now in our society. Some might think it's kookiness, and I won't comment about that, but the results of what has happened is undeniable.

This guy's name is Jonathan Cahn.

He says that the first of the gods that have taken over America is Ba'al the Possessor, who brings the worship of money and possessions, and is exemplified by the bronze bull statue on Wall Street in New York.

The bronze bull in New York is a fascinating story. It was created by a artist in 1989 representing the bull market after the cash of 87. He transported the statue in the middle of the night with a crane. The next day a huge crowd had gathered and liked it. The city took it away afew days later but there was such a outcry about the statue being removed the city put it back. To this day there's no permit to have it there and no ownership of it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Everything I've read about Mr. Cahn is that he is either delusional or a grifter.

I wouldn't bother with anything the man says about anything.

I didn't watch the video, and I don't intend to, but based on the OP's summary of the ideas contained therein I'd say what is being espoused is paganism and thus not Christian at all.

Christians don't believe that there are demon-gods. We understand that there are demons, fallen angels who lie and deceive. But that's just it, the devil is a liar and a scoundrel, not a god.

It's also clearly a very America-centric idea being presented, and one that is infused with "culture-war" rhetoric, which frankly doesn't have a place in Christian teaching. The old "God was taken out of schools in America" argument is old and tired, and simply false. God wasn't taken out of schools, what happened was that schools couldn't force religion onto children.

Would you want your children forced to say a Muslim prayer? How about a Buddhist prayer? Are you Protestant, would you want your kids forced to say a Catholic prayer to the Virgin Mary? Are you Catholic, would you want your kids forced to pray a Methodist or Baptist prayer?

What this attitude really shows is that some people are against the separation of religion from the state, and want the state to be used to enforce their religious beliefs onto others.

I'm a Lutheran, would you all want the state to force your children to be Lutheran? Would you think it okay if I tried to fight to make the state force your children to be Lutheran?

I attended American public high school (1997-2001), that's a long time after the 1960's. I could pray anytime I wanted, I could carry my Bible around, read my Bible, and be outspoken about my faith. Every year students gathered outside around the flagpole for prayer. Did we get in trouble? Did anyone tell us we couldn't? No, of course not, because we were guaranteed a constitutional right to freely practice our religion. And this wasn't in a highly religious part of the country like the Bible Belt, this was in an area often described as one of the least religious parts of the US.

So when people bring up this "they took God out of schools" rhetoric, either they are just repeating what they heard; or worse they are simply trying to grift you. They are grifters, charlatans, who are only interested in their own power and making money off the genuine concerns of others.

There is religious freedom in the United States of America. You are free to worship, free to believe, and free to openly associate. But there are people who want to deprive others of that same freedom, possibly even you, because what they want is power for themselves. So, as I said, Cahn is either delusional, or a grifter. Something he's not, however, is a minister of the Gospel and a preacher of the word of God.

These certainly are evil times. False teaching, heresy, and charlatans are abounding leading the flock of Jesus Christ away from Christ, and toward all manner of false beliefs and doctrines of demons.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iarwain]

It's also clearly a very America-centric idea being presented, and one that is infused with "culture-war" rhetoric, which frankly doesn't have a place in Christian teaching. The old "God was taken out of schools in America" argument is old and tired, and simply false. God wasn't taken out of schools, what happened was that schools couldn't force religion onto children.

Well, Cahn may be a grifter, I have no idea, but as I said I agree with the basic thrust of what he said. I don't believe in gods either, but there could be demons influencing the world. God said we should have no other gods before him. The Bible said we wrestle with principalities, powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. Jesus exorcised demons. So I don't think it should just be dismissed as nonsense.

God was taken out of the schools. What we have been given in its place is not freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. This was a Christian nation. Students used to pray the Lord's Prayer in schools. Students used to say "one nation under God". The students were not forced to pray, rather the atheists forced others not to pray. When God was removed from schools and society, it created a vacuum. I don't see how anyone can deny that, no matter what anyone thinks of Cahn.

By the way, Christians are increasingly under attack in the West, and it's only going to get worse, not better.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, Cahn may be a grifter, I have no idea, but as I said I agree with the basic thrust of what he said. I don't believe in gods either, but there could be demons influencing the world. God said we should have no other gods before him. The Bible said we wrestle with principalities, powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. Jesus exorcised demons. So I don't think it should just be dismissed as nonsense.

There's two ways you can look at this. 1) that demons are secretly ruling the world, or 2) remember the Scriptures which teach that God is in control (Psalm 24:1-2), that Christ has already disarmed the powers and the principalities (Colossians 2:15), and therefore our contest with the spiritual darkness in the world is with a defeated enemy whose only real power is that he lies, lies, lies (John 8:44).

God was taken out of the schools.

Would you be willing to explain how?

What we have been given in its place is not freedom of religion, but freedom from religion.

Those are two sides of the same coin. Religious freedom necessitates that people also have the freedom to not have any religion. In a secular republic, such as the United States, the constitutional guarantee and right of the people is that their government cannot tell them what religion they must follow, or any religion at all. That is the Non-establishment clause of the First Amendment.

The alternative to this is having an official state religion, which is fully contrary to the founding principles of American democracy. Now, one may not agree with that principle. But I, personally, don't believe in the use of the state to enforce religion. Part of that is my American bias against coercion, but there is also a theological bias on my part as a Lutheran; as the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is a big part of Lutheran theology and flows from our Law-Gospel Dialectic. That the State's principle function is to ensure civil justice by curbing evil and providing the necessary means of sustaining the populace. The preaching of the word and instruction unto godliness is the purview of the Church, not the State.

This was a Christian nation.

In what sense? The United States was intentionally founded as a secular republic. One of the reasons for why so many came to the American colonies was because they were seeking a place to live where they could practice their religion in peace. And while the various colonial governments had different laws in place on matters of religion, some colonies had an official church while others allowed full religious freedom, the freedom of religion was officially instituted as a central right of all people in this country by the framers of the Constitution. Which meant that Christians of all kinds, as well as Jews, atheists, deists all, likewise, had a right to believe as they were beholden to their conscience. As more people from different parts of the world, with different religions beliefs and practices, came to the nation over her history, they brought with them their religions as well, and so Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and many others also came here and were able to enjoy the same freedom of religion that others enjoyed.

Now, the US has always been a majority Christian nation, and it still is. But it has never been a Christian nation in the sense of having an official religion.

Students used to pray the Lord's Prayer in schools.

And they still can. There's nothing stopping students from saying the Lord's Prayer at school.

What can't happen is that students can't be forced to pray the Lord's Prayer. Do you believe that students should be forced to pray the Lord's Prayer? Because that would be an explicit violation of those students' First Amendment rights.

Students used to say "one nation under God".

Many still do. But forcing a student to say the pledge of allegiance to the American flag, whether with or without the phrase "one nation under God" would, again, be a violation of those students' rights.

Speaking personally, I refuse to say the pledge of allegiance, and have for a long time. Because I believe swearing an oath of allegiance to a flag to be an act of idolatry. My allegiance belongs to Jesus Christ and to His kingdom alone.

The students were not forced to pray, rather the atheists forced others not to pray.

Can you provide any examples of atheists forcing students to not pray? I prayed all the time in public school. I have a hard time imagining that public schools have changed so drastically since I was in public school a little over 20 years ago that religious kids are no longer allowed to pray.

When God was removed from schools and society, it created a vacuum.

Those statements need to be backed up by something other than just words. Last I checked most people in this country still identify as Christian. And the overwhelming number of politicians are Christians, in both major political parties.

I don't see how anyone can deny that, no matter what anyone thinks of Cahn.

Easily, because I don't think the statements you're making line up with with the truth. I think these are talking points which have been used for decades as part of a political ploy, rather than being meaningful representations of reality.

What concerns me is that Christ is being taken out of churches, and there is a growth in theological and biblical literacy among Christians, and that it is becoming commonplace to replace Christianity with political ideology.

By the way, Christians are increasingly under attack in the West, and it's only going to get worse, not better.

And most of those attacks are by other Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iarwain]

Would you be willing to explain how?

Teachers used to lead prayers in schools. Atheists complained, and our judicial system stopped the prayers. Yes, you can pray to yourself or amongst yourselves. But the role model was removed, our schools no longer passed on to our children that God was important and was the final authority. True, parents should have stepped in to fill that void, but the family was also under attack (by some of the forces Cahn mentioned), and the family unit has fractured if not totally failed in the US, and parents have failed to do that job. Once you start removing God, it becomes like a row of dominos.

We have been a Christian country. We had no official religion, but there is no question we were a Christian country. When a town went up, a church went up with it. John Adams said "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other". What happened to Israel when its people turned away from God? God turned them over to their enemies. The same will happen to us if we do not repent.

You speak of political ploys, but the political ploys I'm concerned about are the ones continuing to remove God from our culture, putting our own wisdom above God's, and trashing our Judeo-Christian values. I share your concern about our churches, and replacing Christ with politics. Political messaging, with all its divisiveness, is pervasive in the country today.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Teachers used to lead prayers in schools. Atheists complained, and our judicial system stopped the prayers. Yes, you can pray to yourself or amongst yourselves. But the role model was removed, our schools no longer passed on to our children that God was important and was the final authority. True, parents should have stepped in to fill that void, but the family was also under attack (by some of the forces Cahn mentioned), and the family unit has fractured if not totally failed in the US, and parents have failed to do that job. Once you start removing God, it becomes like a row of dominos.

Why would you want schools to catechize your children? That's the Church's responsibility. Christ instituted His Church and commanded her to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Thus the role of preaching the word, making disciples, and baptizing is the Church, not the State. Why would you trust a school teacher, who may or may not believe as you do, to catechize your child?

I don't know what your denomination/tradition is, but would you really want a member of another church, another religion/no religion, doing the work of catechizing your child and rearing them up as a disciple? It boggles my mind why you would even want that.

We have been a Christian country. We had no official religion, but there is no question we were a Christian country. When a town went up, a church went up with it. John Adams said "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other".

The same John Adams that signed the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly says that the United States isn't a Christian nation?

What happened to Israel when its people turned away from God? God turned them over to their enemies. The same will happen to us if we do not repent.

Bad comparison. America isn't Israel, and America isn't analogous to Israel. The proper Israel comparison would be to the Church.

Given America's history of national sin going all the way to its founding, if we're going to pretend like America can be compared to ancient Israel, then judgment has been on this nation since the beginning. This nation was founded with human beings owned as property and was built, step by step, on the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people and theft of their land. If America was a Christian/godly nation back then, then that doesn't speak well of what constitutes being Christian. I think as Christians we should strive for something better and greater than that; we should strive and aspire to be faithful servants and disciples of Jesus Christ and to abide in the word of God.

You speak of political ploys, but the political ploys I'm concerned about are the ones continuing to remove God from our culture, putting our own wisdom above God's, and trashing our Judeo-Christian values. I share your concern about our churches, and replacing Christ with politics. Political messaging, with all its divisiveness, is pervasive in the country today.

But I think if you were to take a step back, and take a more objective analysis, and really question the stuff you are saying here; you'll find that this stuff right here is part of that divisive political messaging that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity at all. It's a deeply problematic conflation of American identity with Christianity, which is a supremely dangerous and spiritually harmful thing to do. At its worst it's just idolatry, it's Caesar-worship. And even at its best it engenders deep theological confusion that fails to make a proper distinction between the temporal powers of the world with the eternal and everlasting kingdom of God; a conflation of Church with State.

I don't want my elected officials telling me how to worship, or what to believe, or acting like spiritual leaders. That sounds like a total nightmare. I don't want my children catechized by representatives of the State, that sounds crazy to me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iarwain]

Why would you want schools to catechize your children? That's the Church's responsibility.

Starting the day with a prayer is not catechizing your children.
The nation has always been sinful, since it is a human creation. However, if a country has faith, it can be cleansed. If it doesn't have faith, it is lost.

I don't want my elected officials telling me how to worship, or what to believe, or acting like spiritual leaders. That sounds like a total nightmare.

Elected officials should stay in their lane. But I do not want the leaders of our country promoting atheism or anti-Christian values either.
We've had a long line of Christian presidents, that hasn't harmed our country one bit. Quite the opposite, I would say.

You obviously disagree with me, but I say the proof is in the pudding. The more God is removed from our culture, the more our country suffers. Surely you feel the evil spirit of these times?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Starting the day with a prayer is not catechizing your children.

You said, "But the role model was removed, our schools no longer passed on to our children that God was important and was the final authority."

That's catechesis, instruction in faith.

The nation has always been sinful, since it is a human creation. However, if a country has faith, it can be cleansed. If it doesn't have faith, it is lost.

Has there ever been a country that has faith? Do we preach the Gospel to countries, or to people who live in countries? Do we preach repentance to countries, or to people who live in countries. Did the Apostles preach that the Roman Empire should become a Christian empire?

I'm struggling with the very idea that a man-made idea like a "country" is relevant to God. God deals with people, God deals with rulers and those who govern. But countries? That's a difficult one for me to wrap my head around.

Elected officials should stay in their lane. But I do not want the leaders of our country promoting atheism or anti-Christian values either.
We've had a long line of Christian presidents, that hasn't harmed our country one bit. Quite the opposite, I would say.

With very few exceptions every US President identified themselves as a Christian. The only exception off the top of my head I can think of would be Thomas Jefferson.

I'm not aware of any elected officials "promoting atheism". As far as anti-Christian values, I too would prefer that not to happen. But elected officials have been promoting "anti-Christian values" since the inception of our republic. Though in my own experience, I see a lot of Christians, and even pastors and teachers, want to see those anti-Christian values promoted; and when I call those anti-Christian values anti-Christian I tend to be accused of being a godless socialist even in Christian spaces like here on Christian Forums.

Which brings us back to the Church. What is going on in the Church?

You obviously disagree with me, but I say the proof is in the pudding. The more God is removed from our culture, the more our country suffers. Surely you feel the evil spirit of these times?

I certainly recognize our present evil, and said as much earlier in this thread. But I disagree with your assessment of today's present evils and their cause(s).

Outside of the Church is a lost world, but of course that's true. That's not more true today than at any other time in the history of the Church. That was true in the first century, that was true in the eleventh century, and it's true in the twenty-first century. I don't believe in Christian countries. I believe in Christian people who inhabit many different parts of the world. The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. And I believe that the Church has a solemn responsibility to get her house in order when things go awry.

Naturally I see a great many social evils that I believe the Church should have a voice in speaking about. Though it's quite possible you and I would disagree what those social evils are. But I see the great danger right now as not that there is a world out there with many problems, but that there is a Church that is forgetting her Savior and what He told her. And that the things of God are being denied in favor for the things of man. And a big part of that is this right here, focusing on the wrong things like that the State should force religion upon our students through school-led prayer (that's still a violation of the US Constitution by the way); rather than that the Church should be faithfully preaching the word.

Do you know how often I meet fellow Christians who won't even admit that they are sinners, and will argue that they don't have to repent and ask for forgiveness? Do you know how often I meet fellow Christians who are only concerned with what their unbelieving neighbor is doing that they think is sinful, but get incredibly upset at the very idea that they should focus on their own sins and seek to live out their Christian duty in repentance, faith in Christ, and by loving their neighbor?

Do you know how often I meet fellow Christians who, when I quote the Lord Jesus, am told that what the Lord Himself said doesn't matter? It is a shockingly high number, and it continues to shock me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

Ba'al was not a bull. He was a Canaanite god of storms and weather, also known as Hadad. Like Adanoi, Ba'al simply means "lord", and Ba'al was often used because his name was considered too holy by his priests.

 

[Postvieww]

Everything I've read about Mr. Cahn is that he is either delusional or a grifter.

You are acting above your pay scale with a judgment like this.

I wouldn't bother with anything the man says about anything.

In regards to what you have to say on this topic, you make a good point on one thing then contradict and nullify most of what you have just said.

I didn't watch the video, and I don't intend to, but based on the OP's summary of the ideas contained therein I'd say what is being espoused is paganism and thus not Christian at all.

You are very confused on this.

Christians don't believe that there are demon-gods. We understand that there are demons, fallen angels who lie and deceive. But that's just it, the devil is a liar and a scoundrel, not a god.

This statement is such a contradiction I hardly know where to start but we shall try.

1. You admit there are demons and fallen angels but appear clueless as to what they do.
2. The devil is a liar and deceiver but he is real and at work in this world today. Deception is a very powerful weapon against those that fall prey to it.
3. Yes there are fallen angels and not all of them are currently chained in darkness. Some are very active posing as those gods you demo exist.
4. Yes there are demons at work today, they were not just a phenomenon of Jesus's day.
5. You where very lengthy is critiquing a video and man you would not even listen to. Jonathan Cahn is neither "delusional or a grifter".

 

[Postvieww]

The old "God was taken out of schools in America" argument is old and tired, and simply false. God wasn't taken out of schools, what happened was that schools couldn't force religion onto children.

Here you are again contradicting yourself. Yes school shouldn't force religion on anyone but God has been removed out of schools and replaced with doctrines of demons. Indoctrinating our youth with homosexuality, and transgenderism is a doctrine of devils with real demonic forces behind it.

It is usually only Christians who are affected by this no state religion argument. For example the coach who was fired fro praying and leading voluntary pray at games. Thank God he won his law suit but he still had to fight for his rights. How many muslims have you heard of being fired for praying in public?

 

[Postvieww]

There's two ways you can look at this. 1) that demons are secretly ruling the world, or 2) remember the Scriptures which teach that God is in control (Psalm 24:1-2), that Christ has already disarmed the powers and the principalities (Colossians 2:15), and therefore our contest with the spiritual darkness in the world is with a defeated enemy whose only real power is that he lies, lies, lies (John 8:44).

Demons are not "ruling" the world but they are working very hard to deceive and control men through that deception. In many cases that deception is quite elffective.

God does have all power BUT does not force men to always bend to His will. If He did all men would be saved. Christ defeated the enemy at the cross but empowered His church to enforce that defeat. Demons and fallen angels are real and they still are at work today and when left unchecked by the church they still cause problem in the world today.
1. False religions have demons behind them.
2. Children are still being sacrificed to false "gods".
3. The war against Christianity is demonically inspired.
4. The world wide movement to control and enslave the masses is demonically inspired and was prophesied.
5. There are some who are possessed by demons today just as they were when Jesus walked the earth and need deliverance but sadly many churches deny the existence of said demons and are by default helpless to deal with them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

@Postvieww I think it is probably safe to simply say that you and I aren't going to be on the same page on a lot of this. And I'm not sure that delving too deeply into that is going to be the most productive thing. So let's just leave it at that at this point.

-CryptoLutheran