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Question. Is extracting wind power causing some climate change problems?

Mountainmike

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I see the argument that wind turbines can contribute to climate change as a direct feedback still has legs.
In my previous post the equations for the kinetic energy of the wind Ew and the energy of the wind turbine Ewt were derived.

To nip this argument once and for all the 1st law of thermodynamics needs to be brought into the picture.


The 1st law requires ΔE(universe) = 0 which is the conservation of energy law and ΔE(system) = q + w where q and w are the heat and work exchanged with the thermal and mechanical reservoirs respectively.
ΔE(system) is a constant and an increase in q results in a decrease in w and vice versa.

We can consider the Earth as being the system of the universe and the wind turbine as being the system.
In this case ΔE(system) = Ewt – Ew.
The engineering design for wind turbines is to maximize w so all the wind energy within the Betz limit is converted to mechanical energy which can only occur if q = 0.
Hence ΔE(system) = Ewt – Ew is the energy supplied by the wind as work, no heat is exchanged and therefore no direct impact on the climate.
Which post does not address the question. At all.
your energy balance is hopelessly incomplete.
And even if it wasn’t , it still doesn’t address the question.
 
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sjastro

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Which post does not address the question. At all.
your energy balance is hopelessly incomplete.
And even if it wasn’t , it still doesn’t address the question.
I would have expected a more intelligent response from an individual who boasts about their high IQ and being intellectually superior to everyone else.
Your question was; "Is extracting wind power causing some climate change problems?"
To which you added this comment. "my point is whether wind extraction is causing greater land temperatures? Ie disturbing climate balance?
literalky [sic] a green house effect. A green house is in essence a window free enclosure .(????)"


For a wind turbine to behave like a greenhouse effect it would have to radiate heat towards the ground which is reheated, where as in the case of greenhouse warming CO₂ molecules return to their ground state by re-emitting some of the IR radiation absorbed back towards the ground.
The answer to your question is either yes or no.
I have used science to show the answer is emphatically no.
Let me reiterate; wind turbines by design result in the wind performing maximum work on the system where the energy extracted from the wind is exclusively converted into mechanical energy without any heat being exchanged with the environment in the process.
This is the 1st law of thermodynamics in operation.
If you want to dispute my answer, I suggest you practice what you preach and base your counterarguments using science instead of making vague comments.
It’s going to be a tall order to show wind turbines produce a greenhouse effect without violating the 1st law.

Wind turbines can cause “climate change” through the creation of atmospheric turbulence which is not a greenhouse effect and is nowhere near the same magnitude.
Furthermore the requirement is for “more wind” not “less wind” as you asserted in your opening post.

Abstract: We simulate the climatic impacts of large-scale wind power over the US using a high resolution mesoscale model. The diurnal and seasonal cycle of the climate response to wind power is roughly consistent with recent observations of the climate impacts of wind farms. A scenario that generates 0.46 TWe of wind energy over the windiest 1/3 of the US warms the Continental US by an average 0.24ºC. This impact is negligible compared to estimated 21st century warming, yet it would take more than a century before wind’s warming impacts are offset by the climate benefits of reduced emissions. The ratio of climate-impact to climate benefit is much smaller for solar PV. Wind’s overall environmental impacts are surely less than fossil energy, yet quantifying wind’s climate impacts are relevant to informing choices between low carbon energy sources during the transition to a decarbonized energy system.
 
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sjastro

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Here is an article which addresses the 2018 Harvard paper about wind turbines and global warming.
Here’s what their model does show: wind turbines do not add more heat to the atmosphere, but they may redistribute heat by mixing air. Certain models show that could temporarily and locally raise ground temperatures. Again, however, there is no contribution to rising global temperatures and their associated problems.
 
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Mountainmike

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I would have expected a more intelligent response from an individual who boasts about their high IQ and being intellectually superior to everyone else.
Your question was; "Is extracting wind power causing some climate change problems?"
To which you added this comment. "my point is whether wind extraction is causing greater land temperatures? Ie disturbing climate balance?
literalky [sic] a green house effect. A green house is in essence a window free enclosure .(????)"


For a wind turbine to behave like a greenhouse effect it would have to radiate heat towards the ground which is reheated, where as in the case of greenhouse warming CO₂ molecules return to their ground state by re-emitting some of the IR radiation absorbed back towards the ground.
The answer to your question is either yes or no.
I have used science to show the answer is emphatically no.
Let me reiterate; wind turbines by design result in the wind performing maximum work on the system where the energy extracted from the wind is exclusively converted into mechanical energy without any heat being exchanged with the environment in the process.
This is the 1st law of thermodynamics in operation.
If you want to dispute my answer, I suggest you practice what you preach and base your counterarguments using science instead of making vague comments.
It’s going to be a tall order to show wind turbines produce a greenhouse effect without violating the 1st law.

Wind turbines can cause “climate change” through the creation of atmospheric turbulence which is not a greenhouse effect and is nowhere near the same magnitude.
Furthermore the requirement is for “more wind” not “less wind” as you asserted in your opening post.


Spare me the simplistic nonsense.

As you say i spent years analysing and modelling hard and complex physics including some meteorological effects which is why I think is a problem.

I am in good company - there are those at Harvard who agree.. Also one US study concluded the net increase of temperatureby wind reduction exceeded the benefit of switching energy use to unreliables . Sorry I mean renewables. But I see little consensus or even study of it.

But let’s take that energy balance : clouds particularly stratoform reflects the sun back into space, so anything that affects cloud formation increases energy falling on earth, and climate change. Wind pushing cloud up over coastal hills causing precipitaton must be affected by wind level reduction, and therefore altar the amount of energy falling, so your simplistic energy balance doesn’t cut it. To farmers anyhthing that pushes up temperatures or reduces rainfall can be serious. That micro climate change is also climate change, not just the limited stereotype greenhouse gas view of it.

What is certain and beyond doubt is reducing wind levels is affecting local climate- the question of how MUCH..
that's what the thread is about.
 
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Bradskii

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jayem

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Getting off-topic a bit. I know wind turbines are a significant danger to birds and bats. But less than power lines, communication towers, windows, and natural predators. At least so far. If more wind farms are established, more wildlife will be killed. Bats especially, are the largest predators of potentially disease-carrying mosquitoes. We need a healthy and stable bat population,

Wind turbines and birds and bats
 
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BeyondET

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From efficiency Wind farms take ( say) 40- 50 % of the available power.

A plausibility argument:
Wind is part of what is cooling land.
So with less wind , the land WILL be hotter.
That heat is part of the climate change problem.

so is wind power extraction - at best unreliable - causing greater temperature swings?

Ive looked for impact statements or science , I’ve not found much.
That's not how wind moves. It moves through the windmill around the windmill and over the windmill and behind it. There's no decrease in wind.
 
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sjastro

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Spare me the simplistic nonsense.

As you say i spent years analysing and modelling hard and complex physics including some meteorological effects which is why I think is a problem.
I’m not interested in your CV and if my post is simplistic nonsense then you would have had no problems in answering the question.
Avoiding the question is an answer in itself and since you do not have the competence here it is in the hope you might actually learn something.

Since the engineering design for wind turbines is to maximize the work w so the wind energy within the Betz limit is entirely converted to mechanical energy requires the condition the heat q = 0 in the equation ΔE(system) = q + w.
In other words wind turbines do not to exchange heat with the Earth’s thermal reservoir.
If wind turbines were able to radiate heat into the environment as per your greenhouse analogy and still maximize w, requires the creation of energy.
This violates the 1st law and the conservation of energy and is unavoidable in your greenhouse analogy.
I am in good company - there are those at Harvard who agree.. Also one US study concluded the net increase of temperatureby wind reduction exceeded the benefit of switching energy use to unreliables . Sorry I mean renewables. But I see little consensus or even study of it.
And who are these individuals at Harvard, they are clearly not Miller and Keith the authors of the Harvard paper as their model is based on high wind conditions.

From their paper;
We simulate the climatic impacts of large-scale wind power over the US using a high resolution mesoscale model. The diurnal and seasonal cycle of the climate response to wind power is roughly consistent with recent observations of the climate impacts of wind farms. A scenario that generates 0.46 TWe of wind energy over the windiest 1/3 of the US warms the Continental US by an average 0.24ºC.
This contradicts your opening post.
From efficiency Wind farms take ( say) 40- 50 % of the available power.

A plausibility argument:
Wind is part of what is cooling land.

So with less wind , the land WILL be hotter.
That heat is part of the climate change problem.


But let’s take that energy balance : clouds particularly stratoform reflects the sun back into space, so anything that affects cloud formation increases energy falling on earth, and climate change. Wind pushing cloud up over coastal hills causing precipitaton must be affected by wind level reduction, and therefore altar the amount of energy falling, so your simplistic energy balance doesn’t cut it. To farmers anyhthing that pushes up temperatures or reduces rainfall can be serious. That micro climate change is also climate change, not just the limited stereotype greenhouse gas view of it.
This is further confirmation of your incompetence.
What you are describing is a totally different thermodynamic system to that of a wind turbine.
The wind’s kinetic energy loss from wind turbines does not involve clouds, hills or rainfall.

Here is an illustration that describes the thermodynamic system.

wind-turbine35.jpg

Notice anything in the picture?
There is no heat loss or gain with a thermal reservoir the as the wind’s energy loss is entirely converted into mechanical and electrical energy.
I suppose you think the illustrator is also exhibiting “simplistic nonsense”.
What is certain and beyond doubt is reducing wind levels is affecting local climate- the question of how MUCH..
that's what the thread is about.
This may have been your intention but this thread has turned out to be pseudoscience nonsense as wind turbines end up violating the 1st law of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy.
Furthermore your disingenuous attempts to justify pseudoscience by riding on the coattails of the Harvard researchers has backfired as their model is based on “more wind” not “less wind”

You have failed to make the case and this thread should be banished to the other forum where other pseudoscience ideas such as the Earth being flat are discussed.
 
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sjastro

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As an AI interest story I decided to ask the Bing chatbot about wind turbines.
In another thread Bing made some awful blunders but even a dumb chatbot was able to come up with right answer here.

Do wind turbines radiate heat back into the environment?
Wind turbines do not radiate heat back into the environment directly. However, research has shown that wind farms can alter the nearby rainfall and temperature ². For example, a study by Vautard and colleagues shows that doubling the present wind capacity by 2020 would result in changes in rain and temperature at the level of a couple of percent changes in rain and a few tenths of a degree of temperature ². Another study found that the climate around a large wind farm in Texas was affected by the presence of the turbines, with a warming of 0.5°C at night in the region directly under the farm ².

Would you like to know more about this topic?


Source: Conversation with Bing, 21/04/2023
(1) Wind Power Found to Affect Local Climate - Scientific American. Wind Power Found to Affect Local Climate.
(2) Wind Farms Cause More Environmental Impact Than ... - SciTechDaily. Wind Farms Cause More Environmental Impact Than Previously Thought.
(3) Environmental Impacts of Wind Power - Union of Concerned Scientists. Environmental Impacts of Wind Power.
Explain why wind turbines do not radiate heat into the environment?
Wind turbines do not radiate heat into the environment because they convert the kinetic energy of wind into mechanical energy and then into electrical energy. This process does not produce heat as a byproduct. However, as I mentioned earlier, wind farms can alter the nearby rainfall and temperature through their impact on the local climate .

Is there anything else you would like to know?
 
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Mountainmike

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I’m not interested in your CV and if my post is simplistic nonsense then you would have had no problems in answering the question.
Avoiding the question is an answer in itself and since you do not have the competence here it is in the hope you might actually learn something.

Since the engineering design for wind turbines is to maximize the work w so the wind energy within the Betz limit is entirely converted to mechanical energy requires the condition the heat q = 0 in the equation ΔE(system) = q + w.
In other words wind turbines do not to exchange heat with the Earth’s thermal reservoir.
If wind turbines were able to radiate heat into the environment as per your greenhouse analogy and still maximize w, requires the creation of energy.
This violates the 1st law and the conservation of energy and is unavoidable in your greenhouse analogy.

And who are these individuals at Harvard, they are clearly not Miller and Keith the authors of the Harvard paper as their model is based on high wind conditions.

From their paper;

This contradicts your opening post.




This is further confirmation of your incompetence.
What you are describing is a totally different thermodynamic system to that of a wind turbine.
The wind’s kinetic energy loss from wind turbines does not involve clouds, hills or rainfall.

Here is an illustration that describes the thermodynamic system.

wind-turbine35.jpg

Notice anything in the picture?
There is no heat loss or gain with a thermal reservoir the as the wind’s energy loss is entirely converted into mechanical and electrical energy.
I suppose you think the illustrator is also exhibiting “simplistic nonsense”.

This may have been your intention but this thread has turned out to be pseudoscience nonsense as wind turbines end up violating the 1st law of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy.
Furthermore your disingenuous attempts to justify pseudoscience by riding on the coattails of the Harvard researchers has backfired as their model is based on “more wind” not “less wind”

You have failed to make the case and this thread should be banished to the other forum where other pseudoscience ideas such as the Earth being flat are discussed.
Problem number 1, You are using energy balance as the basis of all that follows in your post.

But the total amount of energy in the system as whole is not a constant independent of wind, since the interaction of wind with cloud formation will increase or reduce the total energy reaching earth surface, rather than reflected into space. You do not need any other problems to discount your conclusion..
 
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Mountainmike

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That's not how wind moves. It moves through the windmill around the windmill and over the windmill and behind it. There's no decrease in wind.
No "decrease" in wind is an illdefined statement. Wind pressure? Wind velocity? Wind temperature? Which.
If energy is removed the wind must slow. Therefore there is a pressure change to compensate velocity change just to maintain constant massflow. Allowing for adiabatic action, temperature will also change at least in the short term, short range. And if wind velocity changes across a humid surface, so will temperature change in consequence due to different evaporative cooling. It is all changing. As various studies show.

I am interested in the macro scale effects. Taking such a lot of energy must have knock on consequences in at least local climate change. If cloud and precipitation are effected, so that reflection of energy into space also changes , and it is hard to predict the consequences.

My worry is people are diving into this without adequate study of the unintended consequences.
 
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BeyondET

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No "decrease" in wind is an illdefined statement. Wind pressure? Wind velocity? Wind temperature? Which.
If energy is removed the wind must slow. Therefore there is a pressure change to compensate velocity change just to maintain constant massflow. Allowing for adiabatic action, temperature will also change at least in the short term, short range. And if wind velocity changes across a humid surface, so will temperature change in consequence due to different evaporative cooling. It is all changing. As various studies show.

I am interested in the macro scale effects. Taking such a lot of energy must have knock on consequences in at least local climate change. If cloud and precipitation are effected, so that reflection of energy into space also changes , and it is hard to predict the consequences.

My worry is people are diving into this without adequate study of the unintended consequences.
Adequate study would be needed to determine how many wind turbines it would take to disrupt earth's wind velocity.

I wouldn't say impossible since the world's largest manmade dam can slow the earth's rotation a fraction but still.
 
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sjastro

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Problem number 1, You are using energy balance as the basis of all that follows in your post.

But the total amount of energy in the system as whole is not a constant independent of wind, since the interaction of wind with cloud formation will increase or reduce the total energy reaching earth surface, rather than reflected into space. You do not need any other problems to discount your conclusion..
A fundamental flaw in your argument is your suggestion, whether you are aware of it or not, wind turbines from an open thermodynamic system.
They do not as will become evident in my response.

First of all it is not about the total energy of the system but the change of energy ΔE of the system.
Secondly for closed thermodynamic systems ΔE(system) is a constant, for open systems it is not.
Do you understand the differences between closed and open thermodynamic systems?
Here is a simple diagrammatic explanation.
800px-Different_systems.png

It has been explained to you in previous posts where energy is exchanged in the form of heat and work with their respective reservoirs, ΔE(system) is a constant due to the 1st law of thermodynamics.
It should be self evident the thermodynamic system of a wind turbine is closed as there is no mass transfer from or to the environment.
A parcel of air at a velocity V₁ containing N molecules, will have a velocity V₂ after passing through a wind turbine but the number of molecules remains unchanged.
So not only is heat not exchanged with the environment as wind energy is converted into mechanical energy, but wind turbines form a closed thermodynamic system where changes to the external environment such as clouds do not effect ΔE(system).

Your premise is therefore entirely wrong.
Incidentally why don't you respond to @Bradskii post #47.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Adequate study would be needed to determine how many wind turbines it would take to disrupt earth's wind velocity.

I wouldn't say impossible since the world's largest manmade dam can slow the earth's rotation a fraction but still.

Maybe we should build so many wind turbines that the Earth rotates the other direction. <eye roll>

(I stole this idea from the Ph.D. Dissertation of Amy Wong (U. Mars, 3012) )
 
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sjastro

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Bing "learns" something about wind turbines.
Unfortunately you need to know the answer to the question in order to ask the right question for Bing to give the correct answer.
I know it sounds convoluted.

Does a wind turbine from a closed or open thermodynamic system?
I'm sorry, but I couldn't find any specific information on whether a wind turbine is considered a closed or open thermodynamic system. Would you like me to search for something else?

Source: Conversation with Bing, 22/04/2023
(1) First Law of Thermodynamics - an overview - ScienceDirect. First Law of Thermodynamics - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics.
(2) Thermodynamic Analysis of Wind Energy Systems - ResearchGate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331801268_Thermodynamic_Analysis_of_Wind_Energy_Systems.
(3) How Do Wind Turbines Work? | Department of Energy. How Do Wind Turbines Work?.
(4) Closed Cycle Gas Turbine: An Easy-To-Understand Explanation. Closed Cycle Gas Turbine: An Easy-To-Understand Explanation | Linquip.
(5) Difference between Open Cycle Gas Turbine and Closed ... - TutorialsPoint. Difference between Open Cycle Gas Turbine and Closed Cycle Gas Turbine.
(6) How a Wind Turbine Works - Text Version | Department of Energy. How a Wind Turbine Works - Text Version.
(7) Closed Return Wind Tunnel - NASA. Closed Return Wind Tunnel.
(8) Modeling and Control of a 600 kW Closed Hydraulic Wind Turbine with an .... Modeling and Control of a 600 kW Closed Hydraulic Wind Turbine with an Energy Storage System.
(9) Home Wind Turbines: Pros, Cons, and How Much They Cost - OVO Energy. Home Wind Turbines: Pros, Cons, and How Much They Cost | OVO Energy.
What is the difference between an open and closed thermodynamic system?
An open system is a type of thermodynamic system that can exchange both energy and matter with its surroundings¹. On the other hand, a closed system can exchange only energy with its surroundings, not matter¹. The boundary of an open system is not fixed and can change over time, while the boundary of a closed system is fixed¹.

Is there anything else you would like to know?


Source: Conversation with Bing, 22/04/2023
(1) Know About Open System in Thermodynamics - Vedantu. Know About Open System in Thermodynamics.
(2) The laws of thermodynamics (article) | Khan Academy. The laws of thermodynamics (article) | Khan Academy.
(3) Thermodynamic system - Wikipedia. Thermodynamic system - Wikipedia.
(4) Difference between open and closed systems | Definition, properties .... Difference between open and closed systems | Definition, properties, comparison.
(5) What is the difference between an “open” system & a “closed” system .... What is the difference between an “open” system & a “closed” system? | Socratic.
Apply this answer to a wind turbine. Is it an open or closed system?

A wind turbine converts the kinetic energy of wind into mechanical energy and then into electrical energy. In this process, the wind turbine exchanges energy with its surroundings but does not exchange matter. Based on this information, a wind turbine can be considered a closed thermodynamic system.

Is there anything else you would like to know?
What is remarkable about this answer it gave no internet references.
In its previous two responses its answers were based on the internet references.
Did it actually learn something???
 
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BeyondET

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timothyu

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Don't the elites have to upgrade their industries and businesses over the decades or even the last three centuries to keep themselves relevant? It's never about the people or the planet other than how a profit can be made manipulating the world. Any problems created be they for real or mythical, can be enriching as a result.
 
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Mountainmike

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A fundamental flaw in your argument is your suggestion, whether you are aware of it or not, wind turbines from an open thermodynamic system.
They do not as will become evident in my response.

First of all it is not about the total energy of the system but the change of energy ΔE of the system.
Secondly for closed thermodynamic systems ΔE(system) is a constant, for open systems it is not.
Do you understand the differences between closed and open thermodynamic systems?
Here is a simple diagrammatic explanation.
800px-Different_systems.png

It has been explained to you in previous posts where energy is exchanged in the form of heat and work with their respective reservoirs, ΔE(system) is a constant due to the 1st law of thermodynamics.
It should be self evident the thermodynamic system of a wind turbine is closed as there is no mass transfer from or to the environment.
A parcel of air at a velocity V₁ containing N molecules, will have a velocity V₂ after passing through a wind turbine but the number of molecules remains unchanged.
So not only is heat not exchanged with the environment as wind energy is converted into mechanical energy, but wind turbines form a closed thermodynamic system where changes to the external environment such as clouds do not effect ΔE(system).

Your premise is therefore entirely wrong.
Incidentally why don't you respond to @Bradskii post #47.
You continue with blinkered vision, so your model is not useful at all.

The question posed is the extent to which windmills alter microclimate , which they clearly do.
As various others have noted in literature.
But there is little consensus or indeed systematic testing, yet humanity races ahead none the less With no idea of what it is unleashing,

Your comment says it all About cloud.
You seem incapable of lateral thinking - which physical modellers have to do.

Cloud is part of the earths natural defence against sun.
If disturbance of wind Patterns is disturbing cloud formation the net result can be a multiplier in damage done to environment.
 
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