Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

[Douggg]

Dispensational Premillennialists enjoy discussing the antichrist and the 3 1/2-year tribulation ad infinitum. This is becoming so boring given their reluctance to discuss the much longer and more significant 1000 years that follow the tribulation.

The Antichrist and the great tribulation are what is at the doorstep right now, and much more is written about it in the bible than the 1000years (not to take away from the significance of the 1000 years).

I think if a person were to say "enjoy", it is not for the Antichrist and the great tribulation, but for the nearness of the rapture and the redemption of our bodies to complete our salvation.... which I think you are going to have to admit is before the 1000 years.

The time of the Antichrist and the great tribulation is more of a warning discussion... which is what the prophets of old did concering such times.

 

[Oseas]

but for the nearness of the rapture and the redemption of our bodies to complete our salvation..

The expression "rapture" signifies nothing, it's a fantasy.

What matters and prevails is Revelation 11: 3-4 and 15 to 18. Take a look.

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON​

Revelation 19: 1-9
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our GOD:

2 For true and righteous are His Judgments: for He hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped GOD that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our GOD, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of GOD.

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great harlot, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Jamdoc]

Dispensational Premillennialists enjoy discussing the antichrist and the 3 1/2-year tribulation ad infinitum. This is becoming so boring given their reluctance to discuss the much longer and more significant 1000 years that follow the tribulation.

I'm not really dispensational, I don't have a fancy term for my beliefs on the church vs Israel but I don't believe the church replaced Israel, and I don't believe there's a hard line between the church and Israel, I believe Romans 11 where the Church is grafted INTO Israel.

There's still some degree of difference. Revelation 7 shows a distinction between the tribes of Israel, and the vast multitude.
But Revelation 12 shows that after God protects Israel, Satan turns on those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
We have a destiny that is tied together.

as to the final 42 months? Yeah, that's prophecy.
and the world is aligning towards a premillennial view where things get worse and worse until Jesus comes back, not an ammillennial or postmillennial view.

 

[Andrewn]

I don't believe there's a hard line between the church and Israel, I believe Romans 11 where the Church is grafted INTO Israel. There's still some degree of difference. Revelation 7 shows a distinction between the tribes of Israel, and the vast multitude.

This is fine.

But Revelation 12 shows that after God protects Israel, Satan turns on those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
We have a destiny that is tied together.

Where in Rev 12 do you get that God protects Israel?

as to the final 42 months? Yeah, that's prophecy. and the world is aligning towards a premillennial view where things get worse and worse until Jesus comes back, not an ammillennial or postmillennial view.

I agree it is not a Postmillennial view. But the 3 1/2-year tribulation is the standard Amillennial view.

I'm not really dispensational,

Good. What are your views regarding the Millennium?

 

[Oseas]

I'm not really dispensational, I don't have a fancy term for my beliefs on the church vs Israel but I don't believe the church replaced Israel, and I don't believe there's a hard line between the church and Israel, I believe Romans 11 where the Church is grafted INTO Israel.

There's still some degree of difference. Revelation 7 shows a distinction between the tribes of Israel, and the vast multitude.
But Revelation 12 shows that after God protects Israel, Satan turns on those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
We have a destiny that is tied together.

as to the final 42 months? Yeah, that's prophecy.
and the world is aligning towards a premillennial view where things get worse and worse until Jesus comes back, not an ammillennial or postmillennial view.

JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT, ancient of days

JESUS is a Jew, but the person of Holy Spirit ... Revelation 12:1-2 and 5

Ruth 4: 1-22 - meditate deeply - There are two redeemers - What would be your thought of this mystery of GOD? What to say of the blood of King David? descendant from Ruth the Moabitess.

Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.

2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.

3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:

4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it.

5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.

6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem it.

7 Now this was the manner in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbour: and this was a testimony in Israel.

8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.

10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.

15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.

16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.

17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.

18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,

19 And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,

20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,

21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.


There are three that bear record/testifies in heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3), the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Antichrist and the great tribulation are what is at the doorstep right now, and much more is written about it in the bible than the 1000years (not to take away from the significance of the 1000 years).

The antichrist and the great tribulation are already taking place. It is not what you think they are referring to. And no, there will be no future 1,000 literal years kingdom.

I think if a person were to say "enjoy", it is not for the Antichrist and the great tribulation, but for the nearness of the rapture and the redemption of our bodies to complete our salvation.... which I think you are going to have to admit is before the 1000 years.

There will be rapture but at the last tump, when Christ return, after the great tribulation. However there will be no 7 years "great tribulation". There will be no future 1,000 years kingdom

The time of the Antichrist and the great tribulation is more of a warning discussion... which is what the prophets of old did concering such times.

The Old Testament prophets did warn physical Israel and Jersualem that they will fall to enemies unless they repent. Same thing with the New Testament congregation. The church was warned that they will fall into apostasy and desolation, she will be handed over to Satan and his armies of counterfeit Christians and false prophets and christs. We, Elect, will all be here to witness this judgment of the harlot (church) before the rapture and Christ's return.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is fine.


Where in Rev 12 do you get that God protects Israel?

Israel is the woman in Revelation 12, she gave birth to the man child, Jesus.

Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

I mean are those not acts of God? It's references to Exodus, the Lord bearing them on "eagle's wings" away from persecution, the Lord nourishing them in the wilderness, and the lord parting the water for them to pass on dry land.. here it's a mirror image, the Lord parting the earth to take away a flood, whether it's actual water or the flood is a symbol of a chasing army (like the Egyptians) I don't know, I've heard both.
But the Lord protects Israel like in the days of the Exodus, why do you think seeing the Lord coming in the clouds is going to be so profound to Jewish people and save them?

Because they will remember Exodus, where the Lord in the clouds guided them out of Egypt. He delivers them just as the Lord God did when they left Egypt. It will likely be a pillar of clouds, something the Jewish people would recognize is the presence of God.

I agree it is not a Postmillennial view. But the 3 1/2-year tribulation is the standard Amillennial view.

Amillennialists see the present age as the 1000 year rule by Christ, and if this mess is really Christ's Kingdom on Earth? I'm so disappointed I don't have words to relate it to you.

Good. What are your views regarding the Millennium?

Premillennial. Things are getting worse and worse continually until the Lord returns.
Postmillennial believes things get better and better until man manifests the Millennial Kingdom, then Jesus returns.. totally unbiblical, and not realistic either.
and Ammillennialism believes this current world is the glorious reign of Christ, until a final judgement and eternal state.

Yeah I think this sin corrupted ball is getting worse and worse.
Come Quickly, Lord Jesus.

 

[Andrewn]

Israel is the woman in Revelation 12, she gave birth to the man child, Jesus.

You seem to use the word "Israel" for ethnic Israel/the Jewish people. If this is what you mean, then I disagree. The woman in Rev 12 is the Church/Israel which includes all believers, Jewish and Gentiles. True that in the 1st century, Israel most believers were of Jewish origin, but the nation of Israel was destroyed rather than saved. Believers, OTOH, fled to Petra and were saved.

Amillennialists see the present age as the 1000 year rule by Christ, and if this mess is really Christ's Kingdom on Earth? I'm so disappointed I don't have words to relate it to you.

Amillennialists see the present mess as a significant improvement over the mess before Christ. They also believe it is getting messier as conditions prepare for the Antichrist and the tribulation. @TribulationSigns thinks the antichrist and the great tribulation are already taking place. As an Amillennialist, I think things will get even worse as we head toward the great tribulation.

Premillennial. Things are getting worse and worse continually until the Lord returns.

I asked about your view of the Millennium, and you responded to me with your view of the tribulation. As I said before, Premillennialists do not like discussing the Millennium!!!

 

[Douggg]

As I said before, Premillennialists do not like discussing the Millennium!!!

I don't think that pre-mil are adverse to discussing the Millennium with like minded persons.

I think it would be fair to say though that pre-mill have grown weary of arguing with amil concerning amil's intransigent position concerning the Millennium - and for that reason choose not to engage and let amil go their way. So I think it would be more accurate to say that premil do not like discussing with amil concerning the Millennium.

Premil tend to prioritize the 70th week and events leading up to Jesus's Return - which include the rapture/resurrection in Christ, which God gives us victory in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You seem to use the word "Israel" for ethnic Israel/the Jewish people. If this is what you mean, then I disagree. The woman in Rev 12 is the Church/Israel which includes all believers, Jewish and Gentiles. True that in the 1st century, Israel most believers were of Jewish origin, but the nation of Israel was destroyed rather than saved. Believers, OTOH, fled to Petra and were saved.

The woman in Revelation 12 is the Covenant Israel from Abel to the last Elect. She transcends time. For example, before the cross, she represented the Old Testament Israel when Christ was born. However, after the Cross, she now represented the New Testament Israel, the Church, which is why the woman fled into the wilderness (World) where she is fed with Gospel, for 1,260 days. A symbolical period of time between Cross/Pentecost to the last Elect being secured by the preaching of the Gospel.

Amillennialists see the present mess as a significant improvement over the mess before Christ. They also believe it is getting messier as conditions prepare for the Antichrist and the tribulation. @TribulationSigns thinks the antichrist and the great tribulation are already taking place. As an Amillennialist, I think things will get even worse as we head toward the great tribulation.

I am an amillennialist too. There will not be a "one man" antichrist. There will not be 7 years great tribulation. Since I believe that tribulation is NORMATIVE for the True Witnesses of the Church and it has been since Pentecost. I believe that this "Great Tribulation" is a period where THIS tribulation becomes "great" or progressively worse than normal. I believe it is NOT physical tribulation, but it speaks spiritually of the persecution, hatred, disdain, harassment, reviling, affliction, and rejection of the Saints and their truthful witnesses.

I believe this "Great Tribulation Period" starts with the BEGINNING OF SORROW, where the falling away BEGINS and the Church starts to forsake faithful doctrines. This only takes place after the testimony of Two Witnesses (faithful witnesses) is finished. This is the great tribulation FOR the Elect, however, the great tribulation WITHIN the Church ends when the saints are called out. In other words, at its fall their testimony there is finished. They are no longer within it to be persecuted by it's members. But the great tribulation of the world (which is also the persecutor of them) continues like we are witnessing in this nation as an example, as it remains the mortal enemy of Christ until His return.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I think it would be fair to say though that pre-mill have grown weary of arguing with amil concerning amil's intransigent position concerning the Millennium - and for that reason choose not to engage and let amil go their way. So I think it would be more accurate to say that premil do not like discussing with amil concerning the Millennium.

You got that right. The Premillennialists do not like discussing with the amillennialists because they don't like what they hear and tired of being corrected.
The reason is because the Old Testament belief that the Messiah would come to earth in the future, deliver national Israel, and rule/reign from Jerusalem in the Middle East in peace, was the religion of the unbelieving Jews. Beside from the thousand years, it is the exact same erroneous ideas that Christ warned the people about in illustrating what His Kingdom was likened unto, and what it was not likened unto. They didn't get it then, the revolutionary Chilists didn't get it later, and Premillennialists today don't get it! Because they are all cut from the same cloth of tunnel vision and traditions.

Luke 17:20-21

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

This belief in a carnal, earthly, or political rather than spiritual millennium, where the kingdom of God would be posited on this sin-cursed earth, is the error of the ages. It's the mistake the Jews made, the mistake the Chilists made, and the mistake the premillennialists made. And Dispensationalism is just the further convoluting of an already confused doctrine. So yeah, I will not be surprised if you do not like to discuss millennium with us.

Premil tend to prioritize the 70th week and events leading up to Jesus's Return - which include the rapture/resurrection in Christ, which God gives us victory in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you actually read carefully what verse 52 says? The rapture will occur on the Last Trump. Tell us, when will the Last Trump be, hmm? According to Scripture, it is the seventh trumpet for it is the last one!

Rev 10:7
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel shall blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is finished. There will be no more time. The generation of evil shall pass away. Therefore, there will be NO TIME for your 7 years tribulation and 1,000 years kingdom theory in the future! No wonder the premillennialists do not like to discuss the millennium with this Biblical fact!

 

[DavidPT]

As I said before, Premillennialists do not like discussing the Millennium!!!

But what does the Olivet Discourse have to do with the millennium? The reason I bring up the OD is because, in my view the prophecies in the OD are involving the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years non-Preterist Amils insist are meaning the millennium. What in the OD is describing events that match any of the following?

1) to him will I give power over the nations---And he shall rule them with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27)

2) that he should deceive the nations no more(Revelation 20:3)

3) and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)

Even if we applied the following to when Christ walked the earth, it wouldn't be involving the period of time the prophecies in the OD are involving. The OD is involving a period of time after He ascended through His return in the end of this age. And that non-Preterist Amils are insisting is meaning the millennium, the time periods the OD is involving.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

If that is meaning when Christ walked the earth before He went to the cross, and that Amils don't have the millennium beginning until the time of the cross or soon after, are Amils then going to insist Isaiah 2:3 is also involving the millennium?

 

[DavidPT]

You got that right. The Premillennialists do not like discussing with the amillennialists because they don't like what they hear and tired of being corrected.

First of all, what I quoted you saying here, that comes across as rather arrogant, don't you think? Second of all, you nor @Andrewn nor @Douggg can speak on behalf of all Premils. I'm Premil and I have no issues discussing/debating the millennium with Amils, nor have I grown tired of it it nor grown weary of it.

 

[Andrewn]

The woman in Revelation 12 is the Covenant Israel from Abel to the last Elect. She transcends time. For example, before the cross, she represented the Old Testament Israel when Christ was born. However, after the Cross, she now represented the New Testament Israel, the Church, which is why the woman fled into the wilderness (World) where she is fed with Gospel, for 1,260 days. A symbolical period of time between Cross/Pentecost to the last Elect being secured by the preaching of the Gospel.

This is what I believe, also.

I am an amillennialist too. There will not be a "one man" antichrist. There will not be 7 years great tribulation.

There are different views about this. Only God knows.

The Antichrist: an Orthodox Perspective from the Church Fathers. Fr. Andrew J. Anderson

Today’s sermon is about the Antichrist, as I continue my sermon series on the Orthodox Christian perspective on the awaited Second Coming of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ. The purpose of this sermon is to provide a Patristic understanding of the Scriptures on this timely and important...

orthochristian.com

I believe this "Great Tribulation Period" starts with the BEGINNING OF SORROW, where the falling away BEGINS and the Church starts to forsake faithful doctrines. This only takes place after the testimony of Two Witnesses (faithful witnesses) is finished. This is the great tribulation FOR the Elect, however, the great tribulation WITHIN the Church ends when the saints are called out. In other words, at its fall their testimony there is finished. They are no longer within it to be persecuted by it's members. But the great tribulation of the world (which is also the persecutor of them) continues like we are witnessing in this nation as an example, as it remains the mortal enemy of Christ until His return.

This is a lot of condensed info. Would you plz explain ?

 

[Oseas]

Israel is the woman in Revelation 12, she gave birth to the man child, Jesus.

Revelation 1:10 - John said: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day (the seventh and last Day - the current times of Apocalypse, understand?), and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a Trumpet, (the voice of the archangel, who sounds thr Trump of GOD - 1 Thessalonians 4:16)

Revelation 1:1 - Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (JESUS revealed the Apocalypse around year 95AD, around 65 years after His ascension)

That said, Revelation 12 is not referring to the birth of JESUS, oh no, absolutely not. JESUS referred EXCLUSIVELY on future things, which would come to pass, there is not reference to any happening before 95AD in Revelation, like the birth of JESUS as you said erroneously.

It was around year 95AD and the angel of the LORD commanded John to write, saying to him:
What thou seest (what John was seeying-present time. Year 95AD), write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 12:1 - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman is not Israel as you said, the woman is not Mary, of course. What you wrote doesn't fit with the Word of GOD. Your thinking is from a HUMAN perspective, even a stumblingblock, not from GOD's perspective.

Proverbs 30:5-6

5 Every Word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him.

6 Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

 

[DavidPT]

The woman in Revelation 12 is the Covenant Israel from Abel to the last Elect. She transcends time. For example, before the cross, she represented the Old Testament Israel when Christ was born. However, after the Cross, she now represented the New Testament Israel, the Church, which is why the woman fled into the wilderness (World) where she is fed with Gospel, for 1,260 days. A symbolical period of time between Cross/Pentecost to the last Elect being secured by the preaching of the Gospel.

Let's compare some of that with what the text says in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The chronology is straightforward. First satan still has access to heaven, regardless what sense that might be involving. he then loses access by being cast down unto the earth. And then when he sees he is cast to the earth, the first thing he sets out to do is to persecute the woman that brought forth Jesus. Which you say is the New Testament Israel, the Church, since verses 12-17 undoubtedly are meaning post the cross. And that you indicated it means that post the cross.

Except to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Which then leads to what is recorded in verse 17. Therefore, while the woman is being nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent, this then leads to---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

IOW, verse 17 is meaning during verse 14, except you have the woman meaning the church and have the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, also meaning the church. We then end up with this---the church is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent---and at the same time, the church is being made war with by this same dragon that the church has escaped to the wilderness from the face of it. Sounds like a contradiction to me, that the church can be both in the wilderness away from the serpent and being made war with at the same time. Therefore, the woman and the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, can't be meaning the same thing.

 

[Jamdoc]

You seem to use the word "Israel" for ethnic Israel/the Jewish people. If this is what you mean, then I disagree. The woman in Rev 12 is the Church/Israel which includes all believers, Jewish and Gentiles. True that in the 1st century, Israel most believers were of Jewish origin, but the nation of Israel was destroyed rather than saved. Believers, OTOH, fled to Petra and were saved.

The church did not give birth to Messiah. Israel did.

Amillennialists see the present mess as a significant improvement over the mess before Christ. They also believe it is getting messier as conditions prepare for the Antichrist and the tribulation. @TribulationSigns thinks the antichrist and the great tribulation are already taking place. As an Amillennialist, I think things will get even worse as we head toward the great tribulation.


I asked about your view of the Millennium, and you responded to me with your view of the tribulation. As I said before, Premillennialists do not like discussing the Millennium!!!

well because Premillennialists have a particular characterization of the world prior to Christ's return and Amillennialists have a different one and Post Millennialists have a different one.
A future tribulation is more consistent with the Premillennial view, as Amillennials often internalize and allegorize it to be just personal internal battles or only within the church, rather than having to do anything with the world, where Premillennials see biblical warnings about the state of the world OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH where Amillennials put all that stuff ONLY WITHIN THE CHURCH, and ignore what's happening geopolitically.

as for the Millennial Kingdom itself it fulfills promises made regarding genetic descendants of Abraham, a temple that won't even exist on the New Earth in Ezekiel's later chapters, and the "swords into ploughshares".

Look, "swords into ploughshares" depicts a world where war USED to be waged, but is NO LONGER being waged, so weapons are repurposed.
It can't be the New Earth, because that Earth will have never had war or weapons to repurpose.
It's not this current age, because we've never been in a period of actual peace in this current age.
We're currently in an arms race right now over hypersonic weapons and artificial intelligence.

So yeah, a period of time on this current Earth, where peace reigns because the prince of peace reigns, where we used to know war, we won't fight anymore.

It is in fact, one of the stronger arguments for a "end of millennium" Gog/Magog rather than a Gog/Magog that takes place before the Millennium, because unwalled villages, dwelling in safety, what time on this earth would be more characteristic than that than the Millennium?
But it's certainly not now, because Israel is walled up and the Israelis practice war and ... quite well for a country their size.

Like I've said.. there are some things about Ezekiel 38 and 39 that suggest just before Jesus' return, and some things that suggest at the end of the Milllennial Reign.

 

[DavidPT]

It is in fact, one of the stronger arguments for a "end of millennium" Gog/Magog rather than a Gog/Magog that takes place before the Millennium, because unwalled villages, dwelling in safety, what time on this earth would be more characteristic than that than the Millennium?
But it's certainly not now, because Israel is walled up and the Israelis practice war and ... quite well for a country their size.

Except that presents a major problem if some of us are correct that Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are involving the 7th vial of wrath, or any vials of wrath for that matter. No one would apply any of the vials of wrath to satan's little season if his little season is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned.

The following Cross References section does not list anything in Revelation 20 but it does list Revelation 16:21, though. I already assumed ages ago that Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 is likely involving the 7th vial of wrath. So it's not like I wasn't convinced of that possibility until I saw it listed as a cross ref first. Ezek 38:22 Cross References (16 Verses)

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is one war described in Rev 19 and another in Rev 20. I accept your view that the war in Rev 19 took place in Israel in 66-70 AD.

But the Rev 20 war is supposed to take place at the end of the Millennium. I realize you believe the Millennium ended in 70 AD, but I find this difficult to accept.

I had better correct your underlined section above about the ending of the Revelation 20 millennium. That is not my position. I believe the Revelation 20 millennium of Satan's deception being bound ended with Revelation 20:5's "First Resurrection" event of "Christ the FIRST-fruits" and the Matthew 27 saints all being resurrected that same day in AD 33. It was a literal thousand years that ended that AD 33 year.

That same "First resurrection" day at Christ's first ascension in AD 33, Satan and his devils were cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time" in great wrath. John said that "short time" or "little season" of Satan's release when the millennium ended had already begun before he was writing Revelation (Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 & 7). When John was writing Revelation, he said that the devil knew that he had only that "short time" left to operate in this world (which was after the millennium had ended in AD 33), which caused his great fury at the world's inhabitants.

The Revelation 19 war and the Revelation 20 war of Gog are the same conflict... just presented first from the perspective of the human protagonists, and then from a perspective regarding the part Satan and the demonic realm was going to play in this war (and of Satan's past biography leading up to the battle including Gog). A comparison would be the movie about the Gettysburg battle, presented from both the Northern and the Southern perspectives. Same battle. Different cast of characters.

 

[Jamdoc]

Except that presents a major problem if some of us are correct that Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are involving the 7th vial of wrath, or any vials of wrath for that matter. No one would apply any of the vials of wrath to satan's little season if his little season is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned.

The following Cross References section does not list anything in Revelation 20 but it does list Revelation 16:21, though. I already assumed ages ago that Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 is likely involving the 7th vial of wrath. So it's not like I wasn't convinced of that possibility until I saw it listed as a cross ref first. Ezek 38:22 Cross References (16 Verses)

well like I've said, I see it being possibly either one of those times and there's scripture to support either and frankly, I do not know.

there's only not scripture to support the pretrib version of Gog/Magog, there's only teachings of man, based on an assumed interpretation of Daniel 9:27 where they feel forced to see Antichrist as European.