Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

[DavidPT]

Really plain to me

And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Explain then, how that can work if Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are involving the 7th vial of wrath? It obviously is involving the 7th vial regardless that you might even disagree. That still doesn't make it not true just because you disagree unless you can prove it is not involving the 7th vial. No one that I know of, unless you are the first, would apply any of the vials of wrath after the millennium if the millennium is meaning after Christ returns. Therefore, you couldn't possibly be correct that anything in Ezekiel 38 is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation is mostly in chronological order.

The kingdom of heaven arrives at the 7th Trumpet - and so does the beast from sea. It is not Jesus that is giving authority to the beast, it is the dragon giving authority to the beast. It is an illegitimate government in the face of a legitimate government.

Armageddon (the 6th bowl war) involves both the marriage supper (which kills the beast & false prophet) and then separately the Gog war.

The tribulation probably could be said to be 7 years (we will see what happens on May 19th), but what you call the '70th week' (Daniel 9:27) starts at Revelation 10. The mighty angel is 'swearing an oath' to heaven and earth (which Jesus said not to do, anything other than a yes or no is 'from the evil one' Matthew 5:33-37). Oaths are part of a covenant (Psalm 105:9 is but one of many showing this correlation). This mighty angel is Satan who is 'coming down like lightning', like an 'angel of light'. The 'rainbow' at Revelation 10:1 is also signifying the peace covenant.

At the mid-point of what you call the 70th week is the 7th Trumpet. This breaking the covenant is what triggers Daniel's Chapter 9 prayer and starts literally 70 weeks to finish the 'transgression' (the breaking of the covenant).

I can't make any sense out of any of this no matter how many times I read it. Am I understanding you correctly, that you think the 70 weeks are literal 7 day weeks and that they involve the end of this age? If yes, you do realize that 70 literal weeks would involve 490 days, right? How then can you expect to be able mathematically fit 1260 days into 490 days, let alone fit 2520 days into 490 days?

On 2nd thought, don't even bother trying to explain how. I don't care to know since I have better things to do with my time than entertaining utter nonsense, that 70 literal weeks are meant rather than 70 weeks of years, thus 490 years, not 490 days.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Could you not see how Paul was referring back to Zechariah 9 for 1 Thessalonians 4?

There's some sort of foundational issue, I look at the words and something is off there, so I can't focus on it anymore. Sorry about that.

 

[Jamdoc]

There's some sort of foundational issue, I look at the words and something is off there, so I can't focus on it anymore. Sorry about that.

sorry I couldn't be more clear there.. but to me it really stands out, I look through the old testament and see Paul's teachings under a veil, but since Paul illuminated them I can see what he saw, at least, that's what I try to do.

 

[Douggg]

The transgression that Daniel is lamenting is their breaking of the covenant at the 7th Trumpet.

No, Daniel is lamenting the Jews breaking the Mount Sinai covenant by worshipping idols and not letting the land rest every 7 years - so they were taken into Babylonian captivity.


2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

 

[Douggg]

To interpret that in that manner ignores the following.

Ezekiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

David, the Gog/Magog event ends in verse 16. The destruction of Gog's army, and the clean up of the land, are all finished by verse 16.

There are no cleanup crews in the verses following the Armageddon event in verses 17-20 because Jesus Himself will have to restore the entire earth from the effects of the great tribulation.

 

[d taylor]

Explain then, how that can work if Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are involving the 7th vial of wrath? It obviously is involving the 7th vial regardless that you might even disagree. That still doesn't make it not true just because you disagree unless you can prove it is not involving the 7th vial. No one that I know of, unless you are the first, would apply any of the vials of wrath after the millennium if the millennium is meaning after Christ returns. Therefore, you couldn't possibly be correct that anything in Ezekiel 38 is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned.

Who says Ezekiel is that part of Revelation, this is not Israel in the tribulation. Israel is not living in safety

In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

 

[DavidPT]

Who says Ezekiel is that part of Revelation, this is not Israel in the tribulation. Israel is not living in safety



In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

It doesn't matter how one looks at it, Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are meaning in the same latter days Ezekiel 38:16 are involving. And that by comparing to the 7th vial in Revelation 16, it's apparent that the 7th vial of wrath is in view in Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence(Ezekiel 38:20)---and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great(Revelation 16:18)

and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground(Ezekiel 38:20)----And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found(Revelation 16:20)

I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones(Ezekiel 38:22)--- And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great(Revelation 16:21)

As if these events can happen multiple different times in the end of this age rather than just one time.

I have been on the planet for some years now. Not one time in all of those years am I aware of God having rained great hailstones, fire, and brimstone, down on anyone during the 20th nor the 21st century. But when He does this in the future He is not going to do this multiple different times, He is only going to do it one time. Therefore, what Revelation 16:17-21 is involving is what Ezekiel 38:20 and Ezekiel 38:22 are involving.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

sorry I couldn't be more clear there.. but to me it really stands out, I look through the old testament and see Paul's teachings under a veil, but since Paul illuminated them I can see what he saw, at least, that's what I try to do.

In the book of acts Jesus advises that seeking the times that the Father set in His power, is not for us. Preaching the gospel is why we're given the Holy Spirit. The modern day conflation of eschatology and the gospel is the result of a foundation of errors. So when I experience cognative dissonance in these discussions it is no wonder.

 

[tranquil]

So you believe Jesus claims the kingdom at the 7th trumpet and then hands the world back over to Satan so Satan can give it to Antichrist?

He doesn't 'hand it over' - he is letting the tares become bundled for burning. He is letting people freely choose what they want.

Not sure how else to put it. Shrugs

 

[tranquil]

I can't make any sense out of any of this no matter how many times I read it. Am I understanding you correctly, that you think the 70 weeks are literal 7 day weeks and that they involve the end of this age? If yes, you do realize that 70 literal weeks would involve 490 days, right? How then can you expect to be able mathematically fit 1260 days into 490 days, let alone fit 2520 days into 490 days?

On 2nd thought, don't even bother trying to explain how. I don't care to know since I have better things to do with my time than entertaining utter nonsense, that 70 literal weeks are meant rather than 70 weeks of years, thus 490 years, not 490 days.

Not sure why you are so offended. I am just reading it literally.

Look, add the time frames of Revelation and you will get:

5 months, an hour, a day, a month, a year, 1260 days, 3.5 days, and x amount of time at the 7th Trumpet. That x amount is 490 days.

150 + 396.25 + 1260 + 3.5 + 490 (literal days) = 2299.75 days

Or the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14.

What is the last item that happens in Daniel 9:24-27? the 'most holy place' is anointed. What is the last item that happens in Revelation? The New Jerusalem comes down.

Where are the 2 witnesses at for the 1260 days? In Jerusalem. Is there going to be an 'old Jerusalem' for a thousand years? No.

When Rev 13 says that the beast from the sea is given 42 months, that is the dragon giving authority to the beast. And what does Jesus say about this?

Matthew 24:22 Of those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

Those 42 months are cut short to... 70 weeks.

There's more to say but I won't complicate it further.

But let's say you want a literal '70th week' left over to satisfy your historical craving. I could show you how the most likely fulfillment goes from this May 19th, 2023 to May 31, 2030. Literally 7 Hebrew calendar years from Jerusalem Day, 2023 to Jerusalem Day, 2030 (for the New Jerusalem to come down).

But that 7 years doesn't apply to when Daniel 9:27 is used for the 'antichrist' - which again, starts at Rev 10 and is the 1260, 3.5 days, + 490 days.

 

[tranquil]

No, Daniel is lamenting the Jews breaking the Mount Sinai covenant by worshipping idols and not letting the land rest every 7 years - so they were taken into Babylonian captivity.


2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.


11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

If you really think Daniel 9 is about the Babylonian captivity, why do you keep saying that this has anything to do with the antichrist?

Of course, it has nothing to do with the Babylonian captivity and everything to do with the end times.

Daniel 9:13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquities and giving attention to Your truth.

Deuteronomy 31:24 When Moses had finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: 26“Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may remain there as a witness against you.

28Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officers so that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Revelation 10:5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.”

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

 

[tranquil]

The final beast is the fourth beast.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The fourth kingdom is the EU, i.e. the Roman Empire in the end times. Following Gog/Magog, the EU will move its armies into the middle east to grab possession of all the oil.

In Revelation 13:1-2 the fourth beast is made up of the composite parts belonging to the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greek Empire. Basically signifying that the EU will be occupying all of the territories once held by those three historic empires.

No, this is not true. The 4th beast is not the EU. Also, the 4th beast is distinct from the other beasts: it says so here in Daniel 7:7 and in Daniel 7:19. It is not a composite of the others.

It is the EU that has 4 heads.

It is the Leopard that is given dominion that has 4 heads. Then after the Leopard is killed, then after the other 3 Leopard heads are killed, then the 4th Beast arrives.

 

[Douggg]

If you really think Daniel 9 is about the Babylonian captivity, why do you keep saying that this has anything to do with the antichrist?

Of course, it has nothing to do with the Babylonian captivity and everything to do with the end times.

The 70th week is end times. The other 69 weeks are historic.

Daniel's prayer was at the time of the Babylonian captivity. The 70 weeks were measured from the time of Daniel's prayer.

The messiah cutoff but not for himself, after 7 plus 62 weeks was Jesus.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Your charts still don't show the messiah cutoff, but not for himself, of verse 26.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The 70th week is end times. The other 69 weeks are historic.

Incorrect.

The 70th week started when Christ confirmed a covenant after he was cut off. So the final week lasted from the Cross/Pentecost to the Second Coming. The whole New Testament period. Not 7 literal years as Dispensationalists falsely teach.

View attachment 330094

Too many erroneous holes in this chart.

1.) Christ confirmed a covenant with his death at the Cross, Hebrews 9:14-17. Satan was defeated and bound at that time.

2.) The city and the sanctuary referred to the Old Testament congregation when Christ's people, Jews (the people of the prince per context) come and destroy him. This is what Christ warned the Jews, John 18:21. Christ's death brought the end to the Old Testament congregation as a representation of God's kingdom. And in three days when Christ resurrected, he gave the kingdom representation the New Testament congregation, the church that Christ now rebuilt. Matthew 21:43. The Lord did NOT talk about physical temple buildings in 70AD.

3.) Nowhere in Daniel 9 24-27 was talking about the "little horn prince". That is your private interpretation that you were trying to insert little horn to replace "he" in verse 27 despite what the context says.

4.) The 70th week is not 7 literal years.

5.) The 7 years will not start with the confirmation of man-made "peace treaty". Christ the prince already confirmed a covenant with His People that is far more important than any peace treaty you can think of! Remember in Daniel 9:24 that it is about God and His People, Israel. By Israel, she is made up of the Old Testament Congregation (Jews) and the New Testament Congregation (Gentiles). First the Jews, then the Gentiles.

6.) The final week is divided into 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days. The 1,260 symbolic days represent the period of Two Witnesses (church) to preach salvation gospel to the world - save from Satan. Same as when a woman (Congregation Israel) fled into the wilderness (world) where the Gospel is fed, Revelation 12: 5-6. After this, Satan is then loosed from the bottomless pit and kill Two Witnesses (silence their gospel testimony for 3-1/2 symbolic days). This only takes place after God has secured all of His People through the testimony of Two Witnesses, Revelation 7:1-3. This period is the time of apostasy of the church.

7.) The 1,290th day marks the setting up of the abomination of desolation which signals the fall of the church. This is when the Spirit of Life, Revelation 11: 11, comes upon Two Witnesses to get up and depart out of the unfaithful church as God judges her. This will be the hour of the judgment of the harlot, Revelation 18.

8.) Finally the 1,335th day marks the Second Coming and the Rapture. That is the consummation. This only takes place AFTER the judgment of the unfaithful harlot is fulfilled. And the White Throne Judgment begins for the unsaved world. There will be no so-called 1,000 literal kingdoms after this. It is done and the mystery of God is finished.

 

[DavidPT]

David, the Gog/Magog event ends in verse 16. The destruction of Gog's army, and the clean up of the land, are all finished by verse 16.

There are no cleanup crews in the verses following the Armageddon event in verses 17-20 because Jesus Himself will have to restore the entire earth from the effects of the great tribulation.

Douggg, some of the following is what you would have us believe.

First Israel is attacked and God supernaturally intervenes by destroying the ones do the attacking. Which means everyone on the planet, including the house of Israel that was being attacked and defended by God, are undeniably going to know God had His hand in these events. Except you have the house of Israel coming across as 100% clueless and 100% ungrateful, that right after these events they are in league with the AC, at least the first 3.5 years following after God destroyed Israel's attackers. And that this is also right after the entire region has literally been leveled to the ground(Ezekiel 38:20). And that you need a rebuilt temple, except if there was one, there wouldn't be one any more after Ezekiel 38:20 has been fulfilled.


Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


How can fire and brimstone rain down from the sky and the house of Israel not know that God is the one doing this? Why would, after witnessing that, and after witnessing God defending them, they then go from that to being in league with the AC for 3.5 years? That's insanity if the house of Israel can witness all these events, thus know 100% that God defended them against their enemies, then turn on God just like that by being in league with the AC 3.5 years following those events. Except the AC isn't the one that defended them, God did. Why would they then be ungrateful to God for what He did on their behalf, by being in league with the AC following that?

You basically have God being mocked by the house of Israel. First He defends them, and instead of them being grateful to God for that, thus them returning to God, you have them running with open arms to the AC instead. And then there is this 7 years of burning weapons where the last 3.5 years would be paralleling great tribulation. As if there are any Scriptures in the NT that support burning weapons during great tribulation.

 

[DavidPT]

2.) The city and the sanctuary referred to the Old Testament congregation when Christ's people, Jews (the people of the prince per context) come and destroy him. This is what Christ warned the Jews, John 18:21. Christ's death brought the end to the Old Testament congregation as a representation of God's kingdom. And in three days when Christ resurrected, he gave the kingdom representation the New Testament congregation, the church that Christ now rebuilt. Matthew 21:43. The Lord did NOT talk about physical temple buildings in 70AD.



4.) The 70th week is not 7 literal years.

5.) The 7 years will not start with the confirmation of man-made "peace treaty". Christ the prince already confirmed a covenant with His People that is far more important than any peace treaty you can think of! Remember in Daniel 9:24 that it is about God and His People, Israel. By Israel, she is made up of the Old Testament Congregation (Jews) and the New Testament Congregation (Gentiles). First the Jews, then the Gentiles.

6.) The final week is divided into 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 days. The 1,260 symbolic days represent the period of Two Witnesses (church) to preach salvation gospel to the world - save from Satan. Same as when a woman (Congregation Israel) fled into the wilderness (world) where the Gospel is fed, Revelation 12: 5-6. After this, Satan is then loosed from the bottomless pit and kill Two Witnesses (silence their gospel testimony for 3-1/2 symbolic days). This only takes place after God has secured all of His People through the testimony of Two Witnesses, Revelation 7:1-3. This period is the time of apostasy of the church.

7.) The 1,290th day marks the setting up of the abomination of desolation which signals the fall of the church. This is when the Spirit of Life, Revelation 11: 11, comes upon Two Witnesses to get up and depart out of the unfaithful church as God judges her. This will be the hour of the judgment of the harlot, Revelation 18.

8.) Finally the 1,335th day marks the Second Coming and the Rapture. That is the consummation. This only takes place AFTER the judgment of the unfaithful harlot is fulfilled. And the White Throne Judgment begins for the unsaved world. There will be no so-called 1,000 literal kingdoms after this. It is done and the mystery of God is finished.

I tend to agree with pretty much everything you submitted in this post except for the parts involving the thousand years. This is yet another example of why I said to you in another thread awhile back, that your view of some of these things makes more sense to me than some of these other Amils around here view of these same things.

 

[Douggg]

First Israel is attacked and God supernaturally intervenes by destroying the ones do the attacking. Which means everyone on the planet, including the house of Israel that was being attacked and defended by God, are undeniably going to know God had His hand in these events

David, what the world will know is that God is not Allah, the god of Mohammed. End of Islam. End of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. End of the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque.

Except you have the house of Israel coming across as 100% clueless and 100% ungrateful, that right after these events they are in league with the AC, at least the first 3.5 years following after God destroyed Israel's attackers.

They will not be ungrateful, but they will be deluded into thinking the Antichrist is their promised messiah. It will look that way to them.

They are looking for a person who is a Jew, a great politician, and have military battle knowledge. Who do you think meets that right now and is north and west of Israel, the direction that the little horn comes into the middle east with his strong army ? I am keeping an eye on Zelensky.

And that this is also right after the entire region has literally been leveled to the ground(Ezekiel 38:20). And that you need a rebuilt temple, except if there was one, there wouldn't be one any more after Ezekiel 38:20 has been fulfilled.

David, it doesn't say leveled to the ground. There is going to be a huge earthquake, that will cause mountain slides, which will be part of the destruction of Gog's army. Of course, there will also be regional damage to structures, like what has been seen in Turkey.

A downsized temple will be quickly constructed in the Jews' zeal to restart animal sacrifices and temple activities.

How can fire and brimstone rain down from the sky and the house of Israel not know that God is the one doing this?

David, the Jews believe in God, and are totally aware of the coming Gog/Magog event. What they don't believe is that Jesus is the Lord their God come in the flesh, to die for the atonement of their sins.

You basically have God being mocked by the house of Israel.

David, now you are making stuff up - which I never said nor implied.

And then there is this 7 years of burning weapons where the last 3.5 years would be paralleling great tribulation. As if there are any Scriptures in the NT that support burning weapons during great tribulation.

Since the weapons will not be wooden, but metal modern implements of war, it will be the diesel fuel that will be taken from the disabled tanks, trucks, artillery, armored personnel carriers, etc. that the Israelis will burn for heat and cooking for the 7 years. And when the time comes for the Jews in Judaea (Matthew 24:16) to flee to the mountains, where much of the remains of Gog's army will be, they will have all that fuel available to them

 

[Andrewn]

The battle of Gog on the mountains of Israel prophesied by Ezekiel was going to be a CIVIL WAR - when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 38:21). Since this was a war that was going to come against the people of Israel, then this brother-against-brother conflict was going to be ISRAELITES FIGHTING AGAINST FELLOW ISRAELITES.

There is one war described in Rev 19 and another in Rev 20. I accept your view that the war in Rev 19 took place in Israel in 66-70 AD.

But the Rev 20 war is supposed to take place at the end of the Millennium. I realize you believe the Millennium ended in 70 AD, but I find this difficult to accept.

My position is typically Amillennial, where the Rev 20 war takes place just before the end of time (Judgment Day).

 

[Andrewn]

I'm failing to see where God ever warned about a "penultimate dictator prior to the 7 year tribulation" that many people's view of Gog and Magog revolves around. I see warnings about just antichrist in particular.

Dispensational Premillennialists enjoy discussing the antichrist and the 3 1/2-year tribulation ad infinitum. This is becoming so boring given their reluctance to discuss the much longer and more significant 1000 years that follow the tribulation.