Penance

[Xeno.of.athens]

After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

 

[Clare73]

After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

Do we find "penance" anywhere in the NT?

 

[Clare73]

Do we find "penance" anywhere in the NT?

I maintain it is a misappropriation of "repentance" to "penitance" to "penance."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do we find "penance" anywhere in the NT?

Is that a trick question?

Acts 2:38 Yet truly, Peter said to them: "Do penance; and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:30 And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.

Hebrews 6:6 to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretenses.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying his promise, as some imagine, but he does act patiently for your sake, not wanting anyone to perish, but wanting all to be turned back to penance.

Revelation 2:5 And so, call to mind the place from which you have fallen, and do penance, and do the first works. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16 So do penance to the same extent. If you do less, I will come to you quickly and I will fight against these ones with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her a time, so that she might do penance, but she is not willing to repent from her fornication.

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise. Therefore, be zealous and do penance.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I maintain it is a misappropriation of "repentance" to "penitance" to "penance."

I do not believe that.

 

[Athanasius377]

Is that a trick question?

Acts 2:38 Yet truly, Peter said to them: "Do penance; and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:30 And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.

Hebrews 6:6 to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretenses.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying his promise, as some imagine, but he does act patiently for your sake, not wanting anyone to perish, but wanting all to be turned back to penance.

Revelation 2:5 And so, call to mind the place from which you have fallen, and do penance, and do the first works. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16 So do penance to the same extent. If you do less, I will come to you quickly and I will fight against these ones with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her a time, so that she might do penance, but she is not willing to repent from her fornication.

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise. Therefore, be zealous and do penance.

Each one of these verses where penance is mentioned is the Greek word μετάνοια or metanoia which means to change one's mind, to turn away or conversion. It means to repent. It does not have anything to do with penance. The RSV2CE translates the verb correctly. The Douay does not.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Each one of these verses where penance is mentioned is the Greek word μετάνοια or metanoia which means to change one's mind, to turn away or conversion. It means to repent. It does not have anything to do with penance. The RSV2CE translates the verb correctly. The Douay does not.

What do you say "penance" is then?

 

[Clare73]

Is that a trick question?

Acts 2:38 Yet truly, Peter said to them: "Do penance; and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 17:30 And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.

Hebrews 6:6 to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretenses.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying his promise, as some imagine, but he does act patiently for your sake, not wanting anyone to perish, but wanting all to be turned back to penance.

Revelation 2:5 And so, call to mind the place from which you have fallen, and do penance, and do the first works. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16 So do penance to the same extent. If you do less, I will come to you quickly and I will fight against these ones with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her a time, so that she might do penance, but she is not willing to repent from her fornication.

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise. Therefore, be zealous and do penance.

The word "penance" (a punishment, as in the penance for speeding is a fine) is not in the Bible.
The Greek word used there is metanoia, which means "repentance," which is not the same thing as "penance."

 

[HTacianas]

After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

Mat 5:23 “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

Mat 5:24 “leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The word "penance" (a punishment, as in the penance for speeding is a fine) is not in the Bible.
The word is "repentance."

I think a distinction exists between "penance" and "penances". What you've written seems like it could be applicable to penances.

Here, I think that the CCC may be helpful.

IV. Interior Penance

1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23​

​

1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one's life, with hope in God's mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).24​

​

1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.25 Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: "Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!"26 God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God's love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. the human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:27​

​

Let us fix our eyes on Christ's blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for, poured out for our salvation it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.​

​

1433 Since Easter, the Holy Spirit has proved "the world wrong about sin,"29 i.e., proved that the world has not believed in him whom the Father has sent. But this same Spirit who brings sin to light is also the Consoler who gives the human heart grace for repentance and conversion.30​

​

23 Cf. Joel 2:12-13; Isa 1:16-17; Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.​

24 Cf. Council of Trent (1551) DS 1676-1678; 1705; Cf. Roman Catechism, II, V, 4.​

25 Cf. Ezek 36:26-27.​

26 Lam 5:21.​

27 Cf. Jn 19:37; Zech 12:10.​

29 Cf. Jn 16:8-9.​

30 Cf. Jn 15:26; Acts 2:36-38; John Paul II, DeV 27-48.​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is that a trick question?

Acts 2:38 Yet truly, Peter said to them: "Do penance; and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:30 And indeed, God, having looked down to see the ignorance of these times, has now announced to men that everyone everywhere should do penance.

Hebrews 6:6 to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretenses.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not delaying his promise, as some imagine, but he does act patiently for your sake, not wanting anyone to perish, but wanting all to be turned back to penance.

Revelation 2:5 And so, call to mind the place from which you have fallen, and do penance, and do the first works. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Revelation 2:16 So do penance to the same extent. If you do less, I will come to you quickly and I will fight against these ones with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her a time, so that she might do penance, but she is not willing to repent from her fornication.

Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and chastise. Therefore, be zealous and do penance.

You need a better translation. Just sayin'

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You need a better translation. Just sayin'

I do not agree. I think that there is a protestant bias against "penance" that is born of ignorance of the word's meaning in its Latin context and maybe some historic miscommunication. The bias clouds discussion too often.

 

[Clare73]

I think a distinction exists between "penance" and "penances". What you've written seems like it could be applicable to penances.

The plural of a word has the same meaning as the word; i.e., punishment.

Here, I think that the CCC may be helpful.

IV. Interior Penance

1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23​

​

1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one's life, with hope in God's mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).24​

​

1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.25 Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: "Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!"26 God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God's love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. the human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:27​

​

Let us fix our eyes on Christ's blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for, poured out for our salvation it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.​

​

1433 Since Easter, the Holy Spirit has proved "the world wrong about sin,"29 i.e., proved that the world has not believed in him whom the Father has sent. But this same Spirit who brings sin to light is also the Consoler who gives the human heart grace for repentance and conversion.30​

​

23 Cf. Joel 2:12-13; Isa 1:16-17; Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.​

24 Cf. Council of Trent (1551) DS 1676-1678; 1705; Cf. Roman Catechism, II, V, 4.​

25 Cf. Ezek 36:26-27.​

26 Lam 5:21.​

27 Cf. Jn 19:37; Zech 12:10.​

29 Cf. Jn 16:8-9.​

30 Cf. Jn 15:26; Acts 2:36-38; John Paul II, DeV 27-48.​

 

[Clare73]

I do not agree. I think that there is a protestant bias against "penance" that is born of ignorance of the word's meaning in its Latin context and maybe some historic miscommunication. The bias clouds discussion too often.

The NT was not written in Latin, but in Greek.
The Greek word used in the verses you presented is metanoia, which does not mean "penance," no matter the Latin, the German, or the Indian.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The plural of a word has the same meaning as the word; i.e., punishment.

Not so. Faith and faiths have quite different meanings.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The NT was not written in Latin, but in Greek.
The Greek word used in the verses you presented is metanoia, which does not mean "penance," no matter the Latin, the German, or the Indian.

The NT was passed down to us in Latin and Greek, and for centuries the Latin text was the only one available in Western Europe. Besides, Latin and Greek are a lot closer than English and Greek yet you read an English bible and use it to proof text your doctrines. So, lighten up on the Latin, it is a reliable and useful witness to the content of the new testament.

 

[Clare73]

Not so. Faith and faiths have quite different meanings.

Faith is belief, and faiths is beliefs.

 

[Clare73]

The NT was passed down to us in Latin and Greek, and for centuries the Latin text was the only one available in Western Europe. Besides, Latin and Greek are a lot closer than English and Greek yet you read an English bible and use it to proof text your doctrines. So, lighten up on the Latin, it is a reliable and useful witness to the content of the new testament.

Nevertheless, the NT was written in Greek and that is its meaning. Any translation not accurately reflecting the Greek is an inaccurate translation, no matter the language.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Faith is belief, and faiths is beliefs.

Sometimes I wish there was a thumbs down reaction available!

Faith is about many things, personal faith, a set of beliefs can be called a Faith, but faiths is far more applicable to the latter - that is to say a set of beliefs, thus one could write of the faiths of the protestant denominations - a slightly awkward turn of phrase, I admit - meaning the sets of doctrines possessed by the various protestant denominations.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Nevertheless, the NT was written in Greek and that is its meaning. Any translation not accurately reflecting the Greek is an inaccurate translation, no matter the language.

I do not agree. Nor do textual critics. Nor do translators. But I've written about this to you before and do not intend to be side tracked into writing about it again, at least no more than I already have. So, @Clare73 I shall move on from this fruitless repeat exchange.