Penance

[Clare73]

The Latin translators in the first few centuries of the Christian era, before the time of saint Jerome, might have known a bit more about Latin and Greek than your posts demonstrate as the extent of your knowledge.

And been more influenced by church doctrine than the Greek text. . .

Was not Jerome the first to translate the Bible from the Greek into Latin?

And if we're talking translating from the Septuagint, there are some problems there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not agree. I think that there is a protestant bias against "penance" that is born of ignorance of the word's meaning in its Latin context and maybe some historic miscommunication. The bias clouds discussion too often.

Correct me if I’m wrong but doing penance in the traditional sense includes things like covering yourself in ash & wearing sackcloth. There have been many other examples of penance like self disciplinary actions. Metanoia has nothing to do with any of that. Metanoia is turning away from sin and turning towards God. If we’ve wronged someone then I would say that yes we should definitely make amends and reconcile to that person but in many cases our sins don’t have any affect on others.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And been more influenced by church doctrine than the Greek text. . .

Good of you to acknowledge that the teaching of the Catholic Church goes back to the first centuries of the Christian era. The centuries before saint Jerome's era. Well before emperor Constantine was around.

Was not Jerome the first to translate the Bible from the Greek into Latin?

No.

And if we're talking from the Septuagint, there are some problems there.

The Septuagint is Greek, not Latin.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Correct me if I’m wrong but doing penance in the traditional sense includes things like covering yourself in ash & wearing sackcloth.

In the old testament sackcloth & ashes were signs of grief and calamity but that has no part in Christian penance. I suppose a Christian could wear sackcloth and ashes as a sign of grief. I doubt that a priest would set such as a penance.

There have been many other examples of penance like self disciplinary actions.

If it is self imposed discipline then it is not a penance.

Metanoia has nothing to do with any of that.

Repentance is to turn away from one's sins and start travelling in the opposite direction and towards God. That is most certainly what the sacrament of reconciliation is about. And the penance set in the sacrament is a useful visceral and practical way to know you are really setting out in a new direction.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the old testament sackcloth & ashes were signs of grief and calamity but that has no part in Christian penance. I suppose a Christian could wear sackcloth and ashes as a sign of grief. I doubt that a priest would set such as a penance.

Yes I believed you are correct. That is probably a more accurate description of wearing ash & sackcloth.

 

[Clare73]

The Septuagint is Greek, not Latin.

Agreed. . .and hastily translated by Jews for the Jews.

 

[Clare73]

In the old testament sackcloth & ashes were signs of grief and calamity but that has no part in Christian penance.

Did not some in monasteries and cloisters inflict such things on themselves?

I suppose a Christian could wear sackcloth and ashes as a sign of grief. I doubt that a priest would set such as a penance.

Therein is the use of the word "penance" as punishment/reparation.

 

[eleos1954]

After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

We can't change our past (God knows this) .... forgiveness removes guilt .... all have sinned .... all have been hurt by sin ... when forgiven by God He chooses not to remember sins committed. (Hard for us humans to believe)

Hebrews 8:12

King James Bible
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Many of us remember our sins and therefore experience guilt. Guilt comes from the accuser (satan)

So, God chooses not to remember our past sins ... so nor should we.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You know what? My purpose in calling the thread Penance was to show in the original post that prayer for forgiveness isn't the whole story of Christian living. I wasn't aiming to get into a doctrinal fist fight about catholic vs protestant views on "Penance". But since you and others mention it, and may I say that your contribution is rather thoughtful and helpful, I think it is valuable to note that Confession/Reconciliation/penance are all names for the sacrament of Reconciliation. The name, reconciliation, gives the needed clue to the meaning of the sacrament. It is about reconciliation with God and neighbour. And the penance given in the sacrament is intended to help the penitent understand in thought and action what genuine repentance is, looks like, and feels like. Some penances are prayers, some are actions, some are restitution. The core idea is to experience reconciliation rather than asking for it only.

PS: A clarification; the penance given in the sacrament plays no role whatever in receiving God's forgiveness. Forgiveness is given by God and voiced by the priest with the words, "I absolve you", and those words, the absolution, precede the setting of a penance. The penance is for the penitent to experience reconciling with God and humanity - it's so you know viscerally what the absolution said verbally. I am forgiven and that means I ought to be/feel/experience reconciliation.

I can't find much to disagree with there. From the Lutheran POV the Christian is to have confidence that when they hear the words, "your sins are forgiven" they are truly forgiven. The Sacrament of Absolution is real grace, real forgiveness.

The general Lutheran objection to penance stems from a notion that, even if it may not be official Catholic teaching, has definitely shown up now and again--that forgiveness ends up wrapped within a penitent work rather than in the free gift that is God's grace. Placing a burden upon the penitent that inflicts further harm to conscience and does not absolve the guilty conscience by assuring the penitent that they are forgiven freely by God on Christ's account should always be avoided.

Making restitution for wrongs committed should be understood as common sense good. It also, of course, seems wise that a pastor would instruct the penitent to go and spend time in prayer, not as a penitential work but rather as wise pastoral counsel. Prayer is good for the soul, not as a penitential work before God; but as a child coming near to their Good Father who hears them and loves them.

Pastoral counsel, common sense good, these seem like the natural thing to include in matters of repentance and confession. But making all effort to avoid confusing or conflating these with Absolution seems utterly necessary for the sake of the Christian's conscience and the assurance of God's mercy and forgiveness which is theirs freely in Christ by His work alone. That is, of course, the Lutheran battle cry: Sola Fide. That through faith alone we receive the perfect righteousness of Christ, freely justifying us by grace alone, by which we are truly and freely forgiven; and thus faith must cling to God's word in the Sacrament of Absolution, trusting in God's word and promise, and thus the conscience is rinsed clean of guilt and freed from the despair of guilt.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Agreed. . .and hastily translated by Jews for the Jews.

Without any haste. Much of it is remarkably accurate, its readings were verified when the dead sea scrolls were found.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Did not some in monasteries and cloisters inflict such things on themselves?

I do not know.

Therein is the use of the word "penance" as punishment/reparation.

Except it isn't.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We can't change our past (God knows this) .... forgiveness removes guilt .... all have sinned .... all have been hurt by sin ... when forgiven by God He chooses not to remember sins committed. (Hard for us humans to believe)

Hebrews 8:12

King James Bible
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Many of us remember our sins and therefore experience guilt. Guilt comes from the accuser (satan)

So, God chooses not to remember our past sins ... so nor should we.

If you stole money or property do you make reparations?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The general Lutheran objection to penance stems from a notion that, even if it may not be official Catholic teaching, has definitely shown up now and again--that forgiveness ends up wrapped within a penitent work rather than in the free gift that is God's grace. Placing a burden upon the penitent that inflicts further harm to conscience and does not absolve the guilty conscience by assuring the penitent that they are forgiven freely by God on Christ's account should always be avoided.

It is, as you say, not Church teaching. It may have been mainly a superstition of sorts if you existed, or just a mistaken idea that was held by some who became reformers.

 

[Dan Perez]

I maintain it is a misappropriation of "repentance" to "penitance" to "penance."

Clare73 I believe is right on as the WORD PENANCE is not FOUND in the KJV ,and he has substituted PENANCE for the Greek word REPENTANCE in Acts 2:38 and in Acts 2:36 , Peter says what they are REPENTANT of the LORD JESUS whom you have crucified .

dan p

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Agreed. . .and hastily translated by Jews for the Jews.

Hastily? Where do you get that? It was probably from 250 to 100 BC that the translation took place. 150 years is hardly hastily.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Clare73 I believe is right on as the WORD PENANCE is not FOUND in the KJV ,and he has substituted PENANCE for the Greek word REPENTANCE in Acts 2:38 and in Acts 2:36 , Peter says what they are REPENTANT of the LORD JESUS whom you have crucified .

dan p

Wikipedia says: The word penance derives from Old French and Latin paenitentia, both of which derive from the same root meaning repentance, the desire to be forgiven (in English see contrition).

 

[Clare73]

Wikipedia says: The word penance derives from Old French and Latin paenitentia, both of which derive from the same root meaning repentance, the desire to be forgiven (in English see contrition).

Wikipedia is no authority for me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Wikipedia is no authority for me.

I do not share you embrace of obscurantism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Penance is repentance, a penitential act is an act associated with repentance, and a penance is an act, prayer, or restitution that makes forgiveness more visceral and real.

 

[Clare73]

I do not share you embrace of obscurantism.

Good for you!