Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[okay]

I have some questions for those who believe that hell is a real place and that the wicked will be punished forever. What would be the purpose of this? What does it accomplish? How does this give glory to God? Why would God require the wicked dead to suffer forever?

I am new here, but also have the same questions. For some reason most of this thread is a debate on whether or not eternal conscious torment is a valid doctrine, instead of ECT adherents carefully addressing all of these questions in the OP. Or perhaps I am just too slow to catch what everyone is getting at.

For me this is a painful, personal issue. I know people that have left the faith over this doctrine. It has also been a major sticking point when talking to nonbelievers. They usually want no part of a god that created humans, knowing in advance that many/most of them will be tortured in hell forever. Jesus saving only a fraction of the population does not sound like very “good” news to most people (how many billions end up in hell?). These interactions challenged me to reconsider my own beliefs on this topic, and I eventually found that I could no longer accept ECT.

How does the ECT subscriber answer the questions in the OP, especially in a way that would be compelling for those who are genuinely struggling with their faith because of it? Back when I believed ECT I had no helpful answers and it broke my heart to see someone walk away because of it. But I know some of you have thought more about this than I have so I am hoping for some good answers.

One last question for the ECT folks: do you think it is necessary to believe in ECT in order to avoid it?

Thanks!
jason

 

[BurningBush84]

I am new here, but also have the same questions. For some reason most of this thread is a debate on whether or not eternal conscious torment is a valid doctrine, instead of ECT adherents carefully addressing all of these questions in the OP. Or perhaps I am just too slow to catch what everyone is getting at.

For me this is a painful, personal issue. I know people that have left the faith over this doctrine. It has also been a major sticking point when talking to nonbelievers. They usually want no part of a god that created humans, knowing in advance that many/most of them will be tortured in hell forever. Jesus saving only a fraction of the population does not sound like very “good” news to most people (how many billions end up in hell?). These interactions challenged me to reconsider my own beliefs on this topic, and I eventually found that I could no longer accept ECT.

How does the ECT subscriber answer the questions in the OP, especially in a way that would be compelling for those who are genuinely struggling with their faith because of it? Back when I believed ECT I had no helpful answers and it broke my heart to see someone walk away because of it. But I know some of you have thought more about this than I have so I am hoping for some good answers.

One last question for the ECT folks: do you think it is necessary to believe in ECT in order to avoid it?

Thanks!
jason

We believe in ECT because the Bible teaches it in

Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10
Matthew 25:41,46
Matthew 18:8
Luke 16:19-31
Isaiah 66:24
Daniel 12:2

 

[Der Alte]

Do the lost receive thee EXACT opposite of the saved ??? Let's see.
Will the people in Heaven ever feel sadness or pain ever again ? No.
Will the annihilated ever feel sadness or pain ever again ? No.
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Revelation 21:4

You should read further in that chapter and a bit in the last chapter. Rev 21:4 "no more death" but 4 vss. later eight groups of the unrighteous are cast into the LOF, which is still called the second death, but there is no more death so the 8 groups do not die.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Then the last chapter,

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter, no more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" But where are they"

Revelation 22:15
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

cf. vs. 21:8
Those who are still unjust and filthy are outside the new Jerusalem, The End, roll end credits, fade to black.

 

[Der Alte]

I am new here, but also have the same questions. For some reason most of this thread is a debate on whether or not eternal conscious torment is a valid doctrine, instead of ECT adherents carefully addressing all of these questions in the OP. Or perhaps I am just too slow to catch what everyone is getting at.
For me this is a painful, personal issue. I know people that have left the faith over this doctrine. It has also been a major sticking point when talking to nonbelievers. They usually want no part of a god that created humans, knowing in advance that many/most of them will be tortured in hell forever. Jesus saving only a fraction of the population does not sound like very “good” news to most people (how many billions end up in hell?). These interactions challenged me to reconsider my own beliefs on this topic, and I eventually found that I could no longer accept ECT.
How does the ECT subscriber answer the questions in the OP, especially in a way that would be compelling for those who are genuinely struggling with their faith because of it? Back when I believed ECT I had no helpful answers and it broke my heart to see someone walk away because of it. But I know some of you have thought more about this than I have so I am hoping for some good answers.
One last question for the ECT folks: do you think it is necessary to believe in ECT in order to avoid it?
Thanks!
jason

Why God would create mankind knowing that He was going to destroy all life on earth with a flood except for 8 people or destroy thousands of inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain with fire except for Lot and his family?

 

[peacefulseeker]

There are many questions one can have of the bible. Obtaining answers is the difficult part. All one can do is be a good Christian and follow the word of Jesus.

 

[JulieB67]

Do the lost receive thee EXACT opposite of the saved ??? Let's see.

The opposite of life is death, period.

 

[okay]

Why God would create mankind knowing that He was going to destroy all life on earth with a flood except for 8 people or destroy thousands of inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain with fire except for Lot and his family?

Including the problem of divine violence makes the cognitive dissonance some experience around ECT even more profound. And your example also brings up problematic treatment of women/girls: Lot offers his daughters to the mob to be gang raped, because that is apparently what righteous men do. He and his daughters are saved, but every other daughter that God made to be born in Sodom is killed by God, and is then tortured forever in hell.

So I am back to the questions in the OP, as well as others. What does this eternal punishment really accomplish? How does it glorify God? If someone wants to remain a Christian, but just cannot reconcile this violent retributive view of God with the love of Christ, do we have any answers that can help them? Or is the only thing that can be done is to give them a list of verses to justify why they should believe in hell?

Again, this is coming from a place of experience, and I am genuinely hoping for helpful answers. I just haven’t yet seen any here.

With my newer viewpoint, I would point out to them that not all Christians believe those things, including me, and offer a resource or two for them to look at before they walk away from faith altogether. But I have not had such an encounter since my views have shifted so don’t know how effective it would be.

Jason

 

[BurningBush84]

Including the problem of divine violence makes the cognitive dissonance some experience around ECT even more profound. And your example also brings up problematic treatment of women/girls: Lot offers his daughters to the mob to be gang raped, because that is apparently what righteous men do. He and his daughters are saved, but every other daughter that God made to be born in Sodom is killed by God, and is then tortured forever in hell.

So I am back to the questions in the OP, as well as others. What does this eternal punishment really accomplish? How does it glorify God? If someone wants to remain a Christian, but just cannot reconcile this violent retributive view of God with the love of Christ, do we have any answers that can help them? Or is the only thing that can be done is to give them a list of verses to justify why they should believe in hell?

Again, this is coming from a place of experience, and I am genuinely hoping for helpful answers. I just haven’t yet seen any here.

With my newer viewpoint, I would point out to them that not all Christians believe those things, including me, and offer a resource or two for them to look at before they walk away from faith altogether. But I have not had such an encounter since my views have shifted so don’t know how effective it would be.

Jason

ECT shows just how severe it is to reject Jesus. That type of extreme severity shows just how great Jesus's sacrifice was. Is Jesus not worthy of that type of severity???

Jesus warned people about Hell many times. Therefore I doubt Hell means Resting In Peace forever.

 

[BurningBush84]

The opposite of life is death, period.

Will the annihilated ever feel sadness or pain again ?? No. Neither will those in Heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

Including the problem of divine violence makes the cognitive dissonance some experience around ECT even more profound. And your example also brings up problematic treatment of women/girls: Lot offers his daughters to the mob to be gang raped, because that is apparently what righteous men do. He and his daughters are saved, but every other daughter that God made to be born in Sodom is killed by God, and is then tortured forever in hell.
So I am back to the questions in the OP, as well as others. What does this eternal punishment really accomplish? How does it glorify God? If someone wants to remain a Christian, but just cannot reconcile this violent retributive view of God with the love of Christ, do we have any answers that can help them? Or is the only thing that can be done is to give them a list of verses to justify why they should believe in hell?
Again, this is coming from a place of experience, and I am genuinely hoping for helpful answers. I just haven’t yet seen any here.
With my newer viewpoint, I would point out to them that not all Christians believe those things, including me, and offer a resource or two for them to look at before they walk away from faith altogether. But I have not had such an encounter since my views have shifted so don’t know how effective it would be.
Jason

Why "eternal punishment?" My answer is Jesus said it, I believe it and that settles it. Matthew 25:46. You are asking the wrong question of the wrong audience in the wrong arena.
Here is a link to a previous post of mine where I quote 15 ECF who spoke of "eternal punishment."

why ECT became the dominant view in the west

Evil is not a thing that can be redeemed in the first place. Evil is like darkness it is the opposite of light . Evil is anything that is not of God , God is light evil is darkness. And there are those who choose evil and that is what they become which is why there is no universal salvation...

www.christianforums.com

I have asked another poster this forum to provide a similar list of ECF who supported UR. Nothing but crickets.

 

[DavidPT]

Why "eternal punishment?" My answer is Jesus said it, I believe it and that settles it. Matthew 25:46.

Can you explain why Adam wasn't warned about it in the beginning? Why Cain wasn't warned about it? Had Cain been warned about it, the fact he undeniably knew there was a God, maybe he wouldn't have murdered his brother had he been aware of having to burn in hell for all eternity for doing so. Can you explain how what Jesus said about it helps any of those out living during OT times before Jesus is even born? You are arguing from a point in time after Christ has been born. Which then doesn't explain how what Christ said after He was born benefits anyone before He was born.

How does that enlighten them, what Christ had to say allegedly about ECT, the ones that are living before He even says these things, before He is even born? Don't many of them end up in this same burning hell? If the account involving the rich man and Lazarus is already literally true, this means it is meaning way before Christ was even born, way before Christ had anything to say about these things. Then notice why it is that the rich man ends up in hell and that Lazarus doesn't, and that it doesn't involve rejecting nor accepting Christ, being the reasons why.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 

[Der Alte]

Can you explain why Adam wasn't warned about it in the beginning? Why Cain wasn't warned about it? Had Cain been warned about it, the fact he undeniably knew there was a God, maybe he wouldn't have murdered his brother had he been aware of having to burn in hell for all eternity for doing so. Can you explain how what Jesus said about it helps any of those out living during OT times before Jesus is even born? You are arguing from a point in time after Christ has been born. Which then doesn't explain how what Christ said after He was born benefits anyone before He was born.
How does that enlighten them, what Christ had to say allegedly about ECT, the ones that are living before He even says these things, before He is even born? Don't many of them end up in this same burning hell? If the account involving the rich man and Lazarus is already literally true, this means it is meaning way before Christ was even born, way before Christ had anything to say about these things. Then notice why it is that the rich man ends up in hell and that Lazarus doesn't, and that it doesn't involve rejecting nor accepting Christ, being the reasons why.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Why are you getting in my face? I have done nothing but quote scripture. I didn't write it, if you don't like what the Bible says maybe you should have a little talk with Jesus and tell Him all about your troubles? If you have a Bible, I am assuming you do, what answer to the questions you threw at me do you propose? While you were reading Luke 16 did you happen to notice that Abraham told the rich man that he could not leave the place where he was being tormented in fire?

 

[JulieB67]

Will the annihilated ever feel sadness or pain again ?? No. Neither will those in Heaven.

This point doesn't even make sense. The ones in Heaven don't feel pain or sadness because the lost will no longer even come to mind. The former things which includes Hell will be no more.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

It certainly doesn't state" "is passed from eternal life and suffering in Hell unto life."

If we take the bible as a whole we see that the wages of sin is death. And Christ describes the second death very clearly in Matthew 10:28 and further clarifies in Revelation that the second death will occur at Judgement Day. After that we will have a new Heavens and Earth and the former things will pass away. He doesn't state the former things will pass away except Hell.

But that is why there will be no sadness or tears for the ones that achieve eternal life.

 

[public hermit]

Can you explain why Adam wasn't warned about it in the beginning? Why Cain wasn't warned about it? Had Cain been warned about it, the fact he undeniably knew there was a God, maybe he wouldn't have murdered his brother had he been aware of having to burn in hell for all eternity for doing so

As you probably know, the ancient Hebrews did not have a robust conception of the afterlife, much less ECT. Everyone went to the same state/place: Sheol. That kind of thinking didn't develop until the intertestamental period.

 

[DavidPT]

Why are you getting in my face? I have done nothing but quote scripture. I didn't write it, if you don't like what the Bible says maybe you should have a little talk with Jesus and tell Him all about your troubles? If you have a Bible, I am assuming you do, what answer to the questions you threw at me do you propose? While you were reading Luke 16 did you happen to notice that Abraham told the rich man that he could not leave the place where he was being tormented in fire?

Why are you interpreting what I said and asked in that post as getting in your face? I'm simply trying to reason through some of this with you is all, getting in your face never remotely crossed my mind. Getting in someone's face involves hostility. I wasn't being hostile towards you by simply asking some of those things. I don't consider you an enemy or something. We are simply just not on the same page in regards to some of this, regardless who is right or who is wrong.

 

[DavidPT]

After that we will have a new Heavens and Earth and the former things will pass away. He doesn't state the former things will pass away except Hell.

But that is why there will be no sadness or tears for the ones that achieve eternal life.

Something else to factor in here since you brought up the new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 34:9 ¶And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

This is obviously pertaining to something earthly. After all, it mentions land. And that if we take everything in the literal sense, especially the part involving for ever and ever in verse 10, this apparently means this will be an eyesore throughout all eternity, and that even though we are told per the passages pertaining to the new heavens and new earth, the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind, that this is not literally true in light of what Isaiah 34:9-10 records, and that that would be involving the former, the same former that is supposed to not be remembered, nor come into mind again.

I can see Isaiah 34:9-10 maybe being an eyesore during the time of the millennium, but throughout all eternity, though? The point being, does for ever and ever have to literally mean that every single time?

 

[BurningBush84]

This point doesn't even make sense. The ones in Heaven don't feel pain or sadness because the lost will no longer even come to mind. The former things which includes Hell will be no more.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

It certainly doesn't state" "is passed from eternal life and suffering in Hell unto life."

If we take the bible as a whole we see that the wages of sin is death. And Christ describes the second death very clearly in Matthew 10:28 and further clarifies in Revelation that the second death will occur at Judgement Day. After that we will have a new Heavens and Earth and the former things will pass away. He doesn't state the former things will pass away except Hell.

But that is why there will be no sadness or tears for the ones that achieve eternal life.

Will the annihilated ever feel any sadness or pain ever again? No. That's the main reason why people commit suicide . They want to end their LIFE of sadness and pain. Having no more sadness or pain is a blessing not a punishment. And Revelation 21:4 proves that .

 

[DavidPT]

Will the annihilated ever feel any sadness or pain ever again? No. That's the main reason why people commit suicide . They want to end their LIFE of sadness and pain. Having no more sadness or pain is a blessing not a punishment. And Revelation 21:4 proves that .

Why do you apparently hate some people so bad that you hope this is their fate, that you hope you are interpreting some of these things correctly? There is not one single person on the planet, past, present, or future, regardless what evil they did in their life, that I would then hope they are tortured beyond comprehension for forever and ever. It seems to bother you, unless they are tortured forever and ever, that this is not fair if that were to not happen. What if you had lived during OT times, such as during the time Adam lived? What would you have been arguing in those days days involving this subject?

 

[BurningBush84]

Why do you apparently hate some people so bad that you hope this is their fate, that you hope you are interpreting some of these things correctly? There is not one single person on the planet, past, present, or future, regardless what evil they did in their life, that I would then hope they are tortured beyond comprehension for forever and ever. It seems to bother you, unless they are tortured forever and ever, that this is not fair if that were to not happen. What if you had lived during OT times, such as during the time Adam lived? What would you have been arguing in those days days involving this subject?

If I really hated people and wished ECT upon them , then I might be in danger of the fires of Hell. Remember what Jesus said in
Matthew 7:2. Is Matthew 7:2 absolutely true ? Because if I hate them and then wish ECT upon them , then according to Matthew 7:2 I will get ECT upon me ! And if ECT doesn't exist then how could Matthew 7:2 be true ????

The problem with Annihilationism is that people like Hitler believed in Annihilationism. Hitler didn't believe in Hell. He believed suicide provides eternal sleep. If suicide ultimately provides eternal sleep, then Hitler got the best of God. But the truth is God's wrath is not something peaceful like eternal sleep.

 

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isaiah 34:9 ¶And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.


Since I feel it's relevant to the subject at hand, how should we be interpreting Isaiah 34:9-10 in light of Isaiah 65:17? How should we be interpreting Isaiah 65:17 in light of Isaiah 34:9-10?

Both accounts are involving the earth. Both accounts would be involving eternity if we take for ever and ever in Isaiah 34:10 in the literal sense. We already know that the new heavens and new earth are involving eternity, at least that's not debatable. But is Isaiah 34:9-10 also involving eternity? If it is and that someone can convincingly reconcile that with Isaiah 65:17, it seems to me that alone could indeed prove ECT since the LOF could be meant by this. Except it would mean the LOF would be an eyesore on the earth throughout all eternity, though.

One account says---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind

The other account says---It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever