Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

[Markie Boy]

Not what I was getting at. But it's hard to communicate properly when just typing.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not what I was getting at. But it's hard to communicate properly when just typing.

Indeed that can always be a challenge. Just so you know I appreciate greatly your efforte and did not mean to appear snarky or dismissive of your work, because it is obvious you put some thought into it, and the concept was intellectually interesting as I read it, or rather I guess misread it, and at least half of the blame for failing to grasp what you were proposing falls on me.

I would urge you to try to explain it to me again, because despite my flowery and grandiloquent writing style, am actually fairly stupid, but nonetheless thanks to the presence of members with greater erudition on Eucharistic theology than myself such as @HTacianas @prodromos @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @dzheremi @coorilose @Jipsah @hedrick and @Ain't Zwinglian , your idea could give rise to a stimulating discussion, especially since what I thought you were arguing you apparently were not, which makes me that much more interested in what you have to say.

I wish everyone present, youreelf included, a blessed Good Friday, Holy Saturday and joyful Feast of the Resurrection, for those on the Gregorian Calendar; for those present who are celebrating Pascha according to the Julian Calendar, I wish everyone a blessed last friday of Lent, a joyful Lazarus Saturday and a beautiful and triumphant Palm Sunday!

 

[Markie Boy]

No hard feelings. I am a growing Christian - and the more I grow and learn, the more I realize how little I know. A humbling journey.

I have a deep longing for unity among believers. Yet, I am very conservative, and don't see a liberal, wishy washy path to that. Funny - I have been in a place where all the conservative churches of all denominations united against the liberal influx into our town at a certain point. It was awesome seeing them all united and working to defend what we all agree on is good, against what we know is evil. To me that's a start point to build on.

I don't have the umph to dive into communion thought's today, be peace and God's blessings be upon you this Easter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

don't see a liberal, wishy washy path to that.

You've already separated Christians into liberal wishy-washy versus conservative churches. With such a view it is impossible to achieve what you expressed in these words: "I have a deep longing for unity among believers."

 

[Markie Boy]

You've already separated Christians into liberal wishy-washy versus conservative churches. With such a view it is impossible to achieve what you expressed in these words: "I have a deep longing for unity among believers."

Sort of, maybe. I guess I question if one can be a modern liberal, and accept things that go directly against Jesus's teaching - and actually be a believer.

It's not for me to pass judgement on them. I do have a longing for unity among actual believers - that's possible. Unity among believers, and those that claim to be Christian, but actions show otherwise - I'll pass on, and do not long for.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sort of, maybe. I guess I question if one can be a modern liberal, and accept things that go directly against Jesus's teaching - and actually be a believer.

And with those words the Christianity of anyone called wishy-washy liberal is denied. The slope is indeed slippery and one slides down it so easily. At the bottom is every sort of bigotry and cruelty that good Christian people never want to see, yet here it is, at the beginning, sliding downwards.

It's not for me to pass judgement on them. I do have a longing for unity among actual believers - that's possible. Unity among believers, and those that claim to be Christian, but actions show otherwise - I'll pass on, and do not long for.

A longing for unity but just for "actual" believers, and who will decide who the actual-believers are?

 

[Markie Boy]

So I'll ask - can someone endorse abortion and be a true believer?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

And with those words the Christianity of anyone called wishy-washy liberal is denied. The slope is indeed slippery and one slides down it so easily. At the bottom is every sort of bigotry and cruelty that good Christian people never want to see, yet here it is, at the beginning, sliding downwards.


A longing for unity but just for "actual" believers, and who will decide who the actual-believers are?

I find myself in about the same place as Markie Boy, and it is a struggle. People who sin have to be aware of their sin before they can repent; for this we have the 10 commandments and the rest of the Holy Scriptures. you elude to the negatives of being faithful to God's word, yet Scripture tells us not only to examine ourselves, but to exercise discernment. While emulating Christ, it is not the Churches job to turn it's back on on those who embrace and revel in unrepentent sin, it is also not the Church's job to ignore it. The purpose of the Church and those in it are to preach the Gospel and rightly administer the Sacraments. In order to preach the Gospel, we also need to teach the Law because without the Law, there is no need for the Gospel.

So what are we to do with those who do not heed the law or accept the Gospe because of denial of the Law? Scripture is clear; we are to shake the dust off of our feet and move on.

Regarding who decides; it is our Lord who shall judge on the last day; in the mean time, we have been given pretty clear indications in Scripture that it is not so much particular sins, but all and any sin that a person, even a believer, refuses to repent of is a good indication that they have already seperated themselves from God.

Be mindful that knowing God and following God are two completly different things; just knowing God is not enough... even the devil knows God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

would urge you to try to explain it to me again, because despite my flowery and grandiloquent writing style, am actually fairly stupid, but nonetheless thanks to the presence of members with greater erudition on Eucharistic theology than myself such as @HTacianas @prodromos @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis @concretecamper @chevyontheriver @dzheremi @coorilose @Jipsah @hedrick and @Ain't Zwinglian ,

In the readings for Tenebrae this evening, I got the "It is finished" passage. Best part of the Good Friday service. After I said read that, the pastor said, "It is done and all over, Depart in Peace" Wow. It was a special service for me at my age and health.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So I'll ask - can someone endorse abortion and be a true believer?

Do you believe that being mistaken is an unforgivable sin?
Can someone endorse harsh exclusivism and be a true Christian? Did Jesus endorse it? Do you remember Jesus' words?

Matthew 6:9-15 Therefore, you shall pray in this way:

Our Father, who is in heaven:
May your name be kept holy. 10
your kingdom come.
May your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth. 11
Give us this day our life-sustaining bread. 12
And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13
And lead us not into temptation.
But free us from evil. Amen. 14

For if you will forgive men their sins, your heavenly Father also will forgive you your offenses. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your sins.​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I find myself in about the same place as Markie Boy, and it is a struggle. People who sin have to be aware of their sin before they can repent; for this we have the 10 commandments and the rest of the Holy Scriptures. you elude to the negatives of being faithful to God's word, yet Scripture tells us not only to examine ourselves, but to exercise discernment. While emulating Christ, it is not the Churches job to turn it's back on on those who embrace and revel in unrepentent sin, it is also not the Church's job to ignore it. The purpose of the Church and those in it are to preach the Gospel and rightly administer the Sacraments. In order to preach the Gospel, we also need to teach the Law because without the Law, there is no need for the Gospel.

So what are we to do with those who do not heed the law or accept the Gospe because of denial of the Law? Scripture is clear; we are to shake the dust off of our feet and move on.

Regarding who decides; it is our Lord who shall judge on the last day; in the mean time, we have been given pretty clear indications in Scripture that it is not so much particular sins, but all and any sin that a person, even a believer, refuses to repent of is a good indication that they have already seperated themselves from God.

Be mindful that knowing God and following God are two completly different things; just knowing God is not enough... even the devil knows God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Take a moment to reflect upon post #150

And consider this too.

Matthew 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

As Jesus said of himself

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.​

Matthew 9:13
This is what the Church is called to do. And judgement may come, as you indicated, when the last day arrives or when a person's actions bring scandal or harm to others.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sort of, maybe. I guess I question if one can be a modern liberal, and accept things that go directly against Jesus's teaching - and actually be a believer.

It's not for me to pass judgement on them. I do have a longing for unity among actual believers - that's possible. Unity among believers, and those that claim to be Christian, but actions show otherwise - I'll pass on, and do not long for.

The converse could be presented though: if one can be a modern conservative and accept things that go directly against Jesus' teaching and actually be a believer.

The answer is that there are people on the political right and on the political left that are devoted followers of the Lord, and who believe in what He said and did, and that informs their political consciousness. Conversely, there are people on the right and left who don't care what Jesus said, and just have their own agenda.

So it's not a matter of liberal and conservative, but of faith.

I am, by most metrics, a "leftist"; my political leanings are toward the left of center, and some might even say I'm "far left" (though I wouldn't classify myself as such). But my left-leaning views aren't in spite of my Christianity, but just the opposite: it is my faith in Jesus that has shaped my political leanings. So, for example, the Lord said "I was hungry, and you did not give Me food; I was thirsty and you did not give Me drink; I was naked and you did not clothe Me; a foreigner and you did not welcome Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me" etc. So I believe as Christians we should advocate for the hungry, the thirsty, the poor, the immigrant, the sick, and the prisoner. That means believing that my neighbor should have access to food and water, have a living wage, that the homeless should be clothed and sheltered, that immigrants should be welcomed rather than shunned, that people should have access to medical care, and that our prisons should be orientated toward reform and rehabilitation rather than being punitive and profit-motivated.

Perhaps others have different opinions and different interpretations on how to implement the Lord's commandments to us, but it certainly isn't about being wishy-washy about following Jesus.

I think if we are honest, we would have to acknowledge that neither left nor right can claim a monopoly on Jesus. Jesus isn't a liberal or a conservative: He's Jesus. And Jesus calls us to a place that transcends political ideology, and to a place that is uncomfortable for all of us--because the call to take up our cross and follow Him means that we have to learn how to die. The cross is not comfortable.

If, as Christians, we are a little too comfortable and we discover that "Jesus" likes all the things we happen to like and hates all the things we happen to hate, then there is an awfully good chance that "Jesus" isn't Jesus, but is instead an idol we have created to give ourselves a false comfort. Because as sinners called to a life of repentance and faith, Jesus is going to turn our lives upside down, again and again. Paul tells us to be not conformed to the pattern of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So I'll ask - can someone endorse abortion and be a true believer?

Yes. They may be wrong, and in error, but yes. Even as someone can endorse other things which are anti-life, such as trying to eliminate programs to help the homeless or working mothers can be a true believer.

True believers are also sinners. Which is why God calls us to a life of repentance.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

I say, "That's a strange question".

Matthew 26:

26 And while they were still at table, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is my body.​

27 Then he took a cup, and offered thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink, all of you, of this;​

28 for this is my blood, of the new testament, shed for many, to the remission of sins.​

29 And I tell you this, I shall not drink of this fruit of the vine again, until I drink it with you, new wine, in the kingdom of my Father.​

30 And so they sang a hymn, and went out to mount Olivet.​

31 After this, Jesus said to them, To-night you will all lose courage over me; for so it has been written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of his flock will be scattered.​

I cannot see any problem for Catholics in these verses.

Matt 26:29 says I will NOT / DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE which means NOT TTTTTTTTTTTTTTT to drink it a NEW with you ( and means the 12 APOSTLES ) WITH YOU in my Fathers KINGDOM , seem very plain to me !!

I have yet to see that KINGDOM ON EARTH ?

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have yet to see that KINGDOM ON EARTH ?

Look a little harder.

But who says that the Lord partakes of communion at Mass now anyway?

 

[concretecamper]

So I'll ask - can someone endorse abortion and be a true believer?

A true believer? That is a subjective.

There are 2 classes of people, those who are part of His body and those who are not.

 

[concretecamper]

I have yet to see that KINGDOM ON EARTH ?

Umm, His Church

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Take a moment to reflect upon post #150

And consider this too.

Matthew 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

As Jesus said of himself

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.​

Matthew 9:13
This is what the Church is called to do. And judgement may come, as you indicated, when the last day arrives or when a person's actions bring scandal or harm to others.

Certainly we must forgive everyone; but because we forgive our enemies, that does not mean that God will forgive their lack of repentence; nor does it meen that we should welcome their fellowship as Christian when they persist in their sin that is at odds with Holy Scripture. We are to shun and flee sin and those who promote it.

I stand by what I posted above.

The way of the Lord never has been "politically correct", but "woke" societies inclusivity has infected many groups that were Christian in the past but now are only nominal Christians at best.

Sorry, but the wages of sin is still death. We must do everything we can as Christians to prevent that outcome for all which means true conversion and repentance; "inclusivity" is a sin when it overlooks unrepented sin.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The way of the Lord never has been "politically correct", but "woke" societies inclusivity has infected many groups that were Christian in the past but now are only nominal Christians at best.

This is just right wing political speak; not even remotely Christian in content.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is just right wing political speak; not even remotely Christian in content.

I read your posts and all I see is extreme left wing, social Marxism with a hint of Christian intent that is bordering on universalism; so I guess we are even.