Where do people come up with Gog not being Antichrist?

[Gregory Thompson]

how's it a new spin? Ezekiel 38:17 seems to point right at it, along with all the parallels to Revelation 16 and 19.

But Revelation isn't really directly discussing any of the old testament prophets, it's a different prophecy that has similar elements in it.

When Jesus died and was risen from the dead, prophecies became about testimony of Him, instead of reciting the curses in the law.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jamdoc, the end times in Daniel 11 begin in verse 36 with the king who claims to be greater than every god. It is the Antichrist person, but that person is no longer in the role of the Antichrist (phony King of Israel), but has become the beast.

There is a path that the Antichrist person follows on the way to his destruction.


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Emerges out of the EU, as the little horn person. Then when Gog/Magog takes place, following it, as the prince who shall come, moves the EU army into the middle east on the premise of being peace keepers. At that time, the Jews will think he is the messiah, and the false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel - now the person is officially the Antichrist.

Not in the bible, that's speculation and what you've been taught but the bible does not say anything about the EU.
That's people reading into scripture.

3 years go by, a downsized temple will have been built, and he goes into it, sits in the holy of Holies chamber, declaring himself to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the messiah that Jews had intially believed. End of his time as the King of Israel - i.e. end of his time as the Antichrist.

God has him killed for his audacious act. And in disdain for the person, brings him back to life, in God's plan to also destroy Satan and his angel's mystical kingdom - of Babylon the Great - that is behind all of the evil in the world.

Once the person comes back to life, it begins his time as the beast. The kingdom of the beast will be the EU, as the ten EU kings hand their kingdom over to him to be dictator. Revelation 17:17.

Back to Daniel 11. verses 36-44. As the king in verse 36, the beast, he will be the king of the west (EU allies will include the U.S, and Canada). Near the end of the 7 years, he will be attacked from the south, then the north joins in, and the kings of the east - head toward him (located in Jerusalem). It will be a prelude to Armageddon to draw all of the armies of the world into the middle-east.

We are so close to all these things to start to happen, beginning with the emergence of the identity of the little horn person.


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With the battles going on, suddenly the 6th seal even will occur, and the appearance of Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand, will terrify the kings of the earth. And Satan (who will be incarnating the speaking statue image on the temple mount, the A.o.D.), the beast, and the false prophet will convince them to make war on Jesus. And devise a plan to take half of Jerusalem as hostage.

At that time, as it says in Daniel 11:45, the beast will meet his end, between the seas, on the holy mount.

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As for Daniel 11 it doesn't give a split.
all of it is end times as Daniel 8 is also end times, Gabriel says it's end times and part of the final indignation multiple times.
It was not Alexander. Though Alexander was a type or preview of it.

 

[Jamdoc]

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The antichrist is the false prophet an actual person. Gog and Magog is the rebellion made up of people (unbelievers) at the end of the 1000 rule of The Messiah. Which is quickly put to an end by God.

This has more biblical backing than the pre-70th week Gog and Magog idea, though Ezekiel 38 and 39 have parallels with Revelation 16 and 19, and Ezekiel 38:17 again, God asks a rhetorical question that identifies Gog as the one who God warned about repeatedly by the prophets. The prophets warn about Antichrist, in particular Daniel, who is Ezekiel's contemporary.

 

[Jamdoc]

Per your view of things, what follows after Armageddon? The reason I ask, we have to factor in the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16. Obviously, that would mean post Armageddon. Thus why I asked you, what follows after Armageddon? Meaning, per your view of things, is it the thousand years that follow after Armageddon, or are we still in this present age following Armageddon, in order to fulfill the aftermath recorded in Ezekiel 39:9-16?

The way interpreters, such as @Douggg, reasons this aftermath, it has to be meaning before the 70th week in order to fit a 7 year time period before Christ returns. But that's not the only option, though. This 7 years required for this aftermath, it could be involving the first 7 years of the thousand years. Which then presents a problem for a view, such as Amil. Amil has no 7 years where this can fit following Armageddon unless Amils think Armageddon is not connected with Christ's 2nd coming, that Armageddon can happen first, and that it can still be years after that when the 2nd coming actually happens. Except I don't know of any Amils who might be reasoning some of these things along those lines.

Since I don't agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor am I an Amil, and that neither do you agree with @Douggg interpretation of Ezekiel 39:9-16, nor are you an Amil, therefore, placing the 7 years post Christ's return is not problematic for us since there is a period of time this can fit, I then have to wonder, have you, like I have, concluded that Ezekiel 39:9-16 has to logically fit the first 7 years of the thousand years, or do you perhaps have another solution?

The Millennial Reign is on this Earth, so yes, the first part of the Millennial Reign will be things like cleaning up the mess. It's not a problem if you are either pre wrath or post trib premillennialists for Ezekiel 38 and 39 to be referring to the 70th week, Antichrist, and Armageddon. That's what fits most to me.

The one monkey wrench as it is, is that Revelation 20 has Gog and Magog as well. If it's placed there.. well then.. where's the 7 year aftermath? because after the fire consumes Gog and Magog there, it goes right to the great white throne of judgement.

 

[Jamdoc]

But mainly I want to know what's the reasoning for the pretrib interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39? I can get nothing from the text that suggests it's a pre-trib "penultimate dictator" I can easily get it as being about Antichrist and Armageddon.
and I can get the view from Revelation 20 that it's post Millennial Kingdom.
I can see and understand both of those views.
What I fail to see is the pretrib Gog doctrine, I don't understand where it came from.

 

[Jamdoc]

But Revelation isn't really directly discussing any of the old testament prophets, it's a different prophecy that has similar elements in it.

When Jesus died and was risen from the dead, prophecies became about testimony of Him, instead of reciting the curses in the law.

Revelation is like a clearing house for Old Testament prophecy.. there's so much Old Testament referenced in it it's really quite astounding.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, I'm only saying that in regards to the aftermath involving Ezekiel 39:9-16. Which would mean that everything else prior to that, would be occurring in the end of this present age. The reason why, if Ezekiel 38-39 is involving the battle of Armageddon like some of tend to conclude, obviously Armageddon pertains to this present age, and that most of us see it involving Christ's second coming at some point during it.

David, why would you think Gog/Magog event is associated with Armageddon ? Gog/Magog takes place when Israel is not at war and in a state of relative peace. Ezekiel 38:8-11.

Just the opposite of when Armageddon takes place, which will be at the end of the great tribulation, and Israel will be in the worst time of its history.

 

[Douggg]

But mainly I want to know what's the reasoning for the pretrib interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39? I can get nothing from the text that suggests it's a pre-trib "penultimate dictator" I can easily get it as being about Antichrist and Armageddon.
and I can get the view from Revelation 20 that it's post Millennial Kingdom.
I can see and understand both of those views.
What I fail to see is the pretrib Gog doctrine, I don't understand where it came from.

Pre-trib is a rapture timing view. Not an interpretion of Ezekiel 38 and 39.

The Antichrist, an identifiable person, is not found in the text of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Gog is not the Antichrist.

 

[Douggg]

As for Daniel 11 it doesn't give a split.
all of it is end times as Daniel 8 is also end times, Gabriel says it's end times and part of the final indignation multiple times.
It was not Alexander. Though Alexander was a type or preview of it.

The split verse in Daniel 11 between what happened in the past and the end times is Daniel 11:35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

I think you meant Antiochus, not Alexander.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


And who does the text plainly say that does these things? God Himself, since that is who the pronouns "I' in that verse are pertaining to. Where does history record during the past 2000 years that God Himself did those things involving verse 22?

Here's your historical record: Josephus Wars 6.2.1.109-110. This was part of the speech which Titus charged Josephus to make on the 17th day of Tamuz to his fellow countrymen and the Zealot leader John of Gischala, offering them the opportunity to resume the daily sacrifices which they had just discontinued, without being attacked while doing so.

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city - for they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is GOD therefore, it is GOD HIMSELF who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple BY MEANS OF THE ROMANS, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

Josephus was merely referring to the AD 70 fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy about Gog coming against Israel, when "every man's sword shall be against his brother". (Ezekiel 38:21). The Roman engines and catapults had kept up a barrage of those "hailstones" against the Zealot armies, and literal fires, pestilential diseases spread by mountains of decaying corpses, and blood from the wholesale slaughter of men were widespread plagues of the city's inhabitants at that point.

 

[DavidPT]

The one monkey wrench as it is, is that Revelation 20 has Gog and Magog as well. If it's placed there.. well then.. where's the 7 year aftermath? because after the fire consumes Gog and Magog there, it goes right to the great white throne of judgement.

Besides that presenting a problem, something else I see presenting a problem is this. The ones being attacked in Ezekiel 38-39, unless I'm reading it wrong, God has been and still is hiding His face from them until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. The ones being attacked in Revelation 20, God would not be hiding His face from them, regardless if it is meaning before the 2nd coming(Amil), or after the 2nd coming(Premil). The ones being attacked per Revelation 20 are already believers. The ones being attacked in Ezekiel 38-39 are not already believers if God is still hiding His face from them when they are initially attacked.

But then again, regardless of the observations above, Ezekiel 39 records, that once God has executed His judgment on Gog and multitude, thus have made them bird food, their remains are then buried, as in they are dead and gone for good. How then do they resurface in Revelation 20 if they are already dead and buried prior to this?

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude : and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 is time of the end, latter days, latter years. Ezekiel 38:8. Ezekiel 38:16.

Among Gog's allies will be Libya, Persia (Iran), Ethiopia. Ezekiel 38:5.

Well, the LXX of Ezekiel 38:5 has it that there would be Libyans, Persians, and Ethiopians among the members of Gog's army. Not those three entire nations in league with Gog - just some members who had come out of those countries and joined Gog's army. By AD 69, Simon Bar Giora managed to build under his command the largest of all the Zealot armies by gathering soldiers not only from his fellow-Israelites, but also from multiple nations surrounding Israel. As Gog was prophesied to do, Simon came out of his place in the "north parts" of the nation of Israel - namely, "Galilee of the Gentiles" where the Zealot factions originated.

And the "time of the end" the "latter days", and the "latter years" that Ezekiel mentions for the Gog conflict is a reflection of the ending years for the nation of Israel as a people. The song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 was given to the people of Israel as a witness which would testify against themselves in "the latter days". Moses told them, "For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt ourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in THE LATTER DAYS; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

God expressed His grief at foreseeing the people of Israel's final fate, saying, "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their LATTER END!" (Deuteronomy 32:29).

 

[DavidPT]

But mainly I want to know what's the reasoning for the pretrib interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39? I can get nothing from the text that suggests it's a pre-trib "penultimate dictator" I can easily get it as being about Antichrist and Armageddon.
and I can get the view from Revelation 20 that it's post Millennial Kingdom.
I can see and understand both of those views.
What I fail to see is the pretrib Gog doctrine, I don't understand where it came from.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.


I guess if Pretribbers are interpreting Ezekiel 38-39 correctly, this indicates that God does the following in vain since they apparently swiftly rebuild everything back, in order for the AC to have a place to dwell during the 70th week, keeping in mind, what is recorded per the following, it would be meaning prior to the beginning of the 70th week to Pretribbers---all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. Imagine that, this event being so profound and devastating that it causes every wall to fall to the ground, then the 70th week somehow following after that. As if that makes logical sense somehow.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The one monkey wrench as it is, is that Revelation 20 has Gog and Magog as well. If it's placed there.. well then.. where's the 7 year aftermath? because after the fire consumes Gog and Magog there, it goes right to the great white throne of judgement.

That would not be a problem if there was going to be more than just one great white throne of judgment.

 

[DavidPT]

David, why would you think Gog/Magog event is associated with Armageddon ? Gog/Magog takes place when Israel is not at war and in a state of relative peace. Ezekiel 38:8-11.

Just the opposite of when Armageddon takes place, which will be at the end of the great tribulation, and Israel will be in the worst time of its history.

Douggg, that's an interesting point you bring up. Even so, unlike you, I don't see great tribulation involving the Jews. I see it involving the church. But still, like you pointed out, when Israel is attacked, they are in a state of relative peace at the time. Does that make sense at the end of great tribulation? Probably not, if I'm going to be honest here, regardless that I don't see great tribulation even involving Israel specifically. I need to do some rethinking of things then, I guess.

 

[Jamdoc]

Pre-trib is a rapture timing view. Not an interpretion of Ezekiel 38 and 39.

The Antichrist, an identifiable person, is not found in the text of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Gog is not the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 38:17 disagrees with you.

and by "pre trib" I'm talking about the popular view that Gog/Magog takes place before the 70th week of Daniel, making it "pre trib"

 

[Jamdoc]

The split verse in Daniel 11 between what happened in the past and the end times is Daniel 11:35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

I think you meant Antiochus, not Alexander.

I meant both.
Daniel 11 refers back to Daniel 8.
The popular view is that Daniel 8 was about Alexander, and Daniel 11 was about the aftermath of Alexander's death and divided empire.

However, in Daniel 8, Gabriel says that this prophecy about the goat and the ram is about the final indignation, the last days, etc. It also specifies that the horn between the eyes was the first king of Javan (or Grecia as many translations put it).
Alexander the Great was Alexander III, the 23rd King of Macedonia, not even the first king of his name.
Alexander may have been a foreshadow, but he is not the fulfillment of this prophecy, unless God is "getting it wrong" with His history, which I don't think He did.

The popular view of Daniel 11 is that it's about Antiochus, and then out of nowhere there's a split and people think the bulk of Daniel 11 is about Antiochus and the very last part, with no logical break in the text to suggest it... is about the final Antichrist.
But there's nothing in the text to suggest that. It's all 1 narrative set of events.
Therefore Antiochus was NOT the fulfillment of the prophecy, not even part. because he did not fit it perfectly, and God doesn't get it wrong. So Antiochus may have been a foreshadow, but NOT who God was talking about principally in Daniel 11, rather it is Antichrist.
So I believe Daniel 11 will be fulfilled, in entirety within the last days, as it is primarily about the last days, not about something that happened hundreds of years before Christ.

 

[Jamdoc]

Douggg, that's an interesting point you bring up. Even so, unlike you, I don't see great tribulation involving the Jews. I see it involving the church. But still, like you pointed out, when Israel is attacked, they are in a state of relative peace at the time. Does that make sense at the end of great tribulation? Probably not, if I'm going to be honest here, regardless that I don't see great tribulation even involving Israel specifically. I need to do some rethinking of things then, I guess.

Tribulation will target both Jews, and Christians. Revelation 12 has the dragon attacking the woman (Israel, that gave birth to Messiah) first, and when they cannot be eradicated because God protects them, THEN the dragon turns on the rest of the seed of the woman, who are Christians.

Now, as to Douggg's argument on this, I can clear that up.
The first half of the 70th week if you do not take Revelation to be in 100% Chronological order and do foolish things such as have Jesus claim His kingdom in Revelation 11:15 and then give authority BACK to Satan so Satan can give it to Antichrist in Revelation 13:2... well anyway, the first half is actually peace and safety, peace and security. There is a covenant made for 7 years, and mid way through, Antichrist breaks it.

Daniel 9

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11

19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

First off, antichrist is 3rd in line of succession for the king of the north.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

I believe this refers to making a league with Israel, his target is the king of the south, it can be surmised, that he establishes peace with Israel, an alliance, where he protects Israel to make war with the king of the south, to pass through Israel.
I'll skip the next part for brevity but in essence the vile man who's replaced the king of the north, goes to war against the king of the south, and then returns it's been kind of a stalemate, he then returns to his own land

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

So he breaks his league with Israel, and at the midpoint, invades, and sets up the Abomination of Desolation.

So.. what we have, is Antichrist establishing peace with Israel, and a period of time where Israel is protected and at peace, but then he turns against them and invades them. This would be akin to the US invading a NATO ally, they'd be practically defenseless, because most European allies have relied on us to defend them and have put forth minimal budget towards their own defense (even though NATO requires a percent of GDP spent on defense most NATO member states fail to meet that obligation)

If we look at Isaiah 28:

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Here God admonishes Israel for making a covenant with the Antichrist to protect themselves, God says it will be annulled and the army that the covenant was to protect them against, will tread them down. Their ally will betray them.
This all happens near the midpoint of the 70th week. The first half is peaceful, Israel stops looking to their own defense, and trusts in a covenant with the very person who will despoil them.
Then it's betrayed, that's why Sheba and Dedan object to the invasion, it's a surprise.

So rather than Gog/Magog being exclusively about Armageddon, it's about the invasion that starts around the midpoint, and carries all the way to Armageddon.

so again, 2 places Gog and Magog can fit biblically:
1. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week, where Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel that established their peace
2. After the Millennium, where the saints have ruled the world in peace until Satan is let back out.

I can see biblical support for both, and 1 key problem for both.
View 1 has the parallels with Armageddon, and it fits Antichrist's covenant and then breaking the covenant 3.5 years in, however it has the problem that Gog and Magog are mentioned at the end of the Millennium in Revelation 20.
View 2 has .. being in Revelation 20, but has the problem of there being a 7 year aftermath of the invasion that doesn't really seem to fit into Revelation 20 jumping from fire destroying them... to the great white throne of judgement... biblically speaking, it seems like Earth is destroyed in Revelation 20 at the end of the Millennium, then there's the judgement, and then New Earth.

 

[anetazo]

GOG is not antichrist. GOG is Russian federation and Islamic brotherhood, documentation, Ezekiel chapter 38. Second thessalonians chapter 2. The son of perdition is satan, he's antichrist. Micah 1:12. For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good : but evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of Jerusalem. The word evil is Calamity. Maroth means, waited carefully. This is actually bitter town. Essentially speaking, God is using satan as antichrist to test the world near future. Satan will come 6th trump to Jerusalem and claim to be God. 1:14. Therefore shalt thou give presents to MORESHETH GATH ; the houses of ACHZIB shall be lie to the kings of Israel. Lot of churches are falling in line with the world council of churches. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine. People are being prepared for antichrist. Their biblically illiterate, they have no defense. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will be in Jerusalem, 5 month period. At the end of antichrist reign, Russia and Islamic brotherhood will attack America through Alaska and God will destroy them at Canadian mountains. Armageddon is in the valley of ELAH, near Jerusalem. Antichrist gathers armys, to attempt to break God's spirit. It won't work. Jesus has His Election. The saint's, Election, won't worship antichrist. I documented this, and explained this.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 38:17 disagrees with you.

and by "pre trib" I'm talking about the popular view that Gog/Magog takes place before the 70th week of Daniel, making it "pre trib"

Why would Ezekiel 38:17 disagree with anything I wrote?

pre-trib is a rapture timing view. It is actually a misnomer, because it actually means pre-70th week. However, the entire 70th week is not tribulation. Regardless, it has no bearing on the timing of Gog/Magog.