DeSantis Debunks Book Ban Hoax

[FireDragon76]

Perhaps you can understand that a discussion that is related to the cause and effect of showing obscene material to children, can't avoid the subject of "is it moral". or "is it morally damaging".

We aren't discussing the morality of homosexuality, per se here (which is not permitted). We are discussing the harm that obscene and graphic content can cause, by over-sexualizing children and young adults, and enticing them into potentially dangerous or emotionally harmful situations, and the lack of wisdom of having such books in schools.

It could be understood also that the reason for the "book ban" is to avoid subverting the morality of a child.

Not necessarily. Many people who want these books out of the libraries probably are objecting on other grounds, such as the previously aformentioned harms and risks to children and minors.

 

[Chaleb]

We aren't discussing the morality of homosexuality, per se here (which is not permitted). We are discussing the harm that obscene and graphic content can cause, by over-sexualizing children and young adults, and enticing them into potentially dangerous or emotionally harmful situations, and the lack of wisdom of having such books in schools.

Not necessarily. Many people who want these books out of the libraries probably are objecting on other grounds, such as the previously aformentioned harms and risks to children and minors.

It IS because of the potential subversion of a child's morality that the FLORIDA book ban is being discussed.
As that is the REASON for the potential ban, and this is the core of the Thread.

And if this curriculum indoctrinates hundreds of thousands of Children, into the mindset that sexuality is a choice they need to make, rather then a God given NATURE..........then you see the issue at hand..

Here is how that works out...
The Bible teaches"....= "train a child the way they should "GO"..... and when they are older they wont depart from it".

Well, Satan knows that if you lead a child into God defined perverted sexuality, they will continue, as the word of God just told you so.

= Why they need to ban the books from Children in School.... and put the morally perverted people in jail who want to do this to kids.

If you are an adult and want to soak your mind with dirty pictures....and sexually explicit language...., then that is on you, but dont pollute the innocence of a Child using the SCHOOL SYSTEM to do it.
That is just about as evil as it gets.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It IS because of the potential subversion of a child's morality that the FLORIDA book ban is being discussed.
As that is the REASON for the potential ban, and this is the core of the Thread.

And if this curriculum indoctrinates hundreds of thousands of Children, into the mindset that sexuality is a choice they need to make, rather then a God given NATURE..........then you see the issue at hand..

Here is how that works out...
The Bible teaches"....= "train a child the way they should "GO"..... and when they are older they wont depart from it".

Well, Satan knows that if you lead a child into God defined perverted sexuality, they will continue, as the word of God just told you so.

= Why they need to ban the books from Children in School.... and put the morally perverted people in jail who want to do this to kids.

If you are an adult and want to soak your mind with dirty pictures....and sexually explicit language...., then that is on you, but dont pollute the innocence of a Child using the SCHOOL SYSTEM to do it.
That is just about as evil as it gets.

Since you joined a week ago, it's understandable that you want to steer the dialogue in certain directions.


Try to understand though, that many of us have had those discussions before and we are aware that certain topics simply have a very high chance of getting someone reported. The morality of homosexuality is one such topic....the morality of abortion is another.

Don't be surprised if someone is unwilling to get into a discussion about these things even if it seems directly related to the thread topic.

 

[Chaleb]

Since you joined a week ago, it's understandable that you want to steer the dialogue in certain directions.

Actually i was not trying to hijack the Thread.
I was literally trying to show a member here that if you accept homosexuality as the culture directs, then you're deceived.
They also explained to me that their Church is soft on sin.

Hopefully your's isn't ana The 1st

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually i was not trying to hijack the Thread.
I was literally trying to show a member here that if you accept homosexuality as the culture directs, then you're deceived.
They also explained to me that their Church is soft on sin.

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think my church is particularly soft on sin. Corporate confession of sin and a word of pardon is part of every service, and the preaching is from the same lectionary Methodists, Lutherans, and Catholics generally use. Our biblical hermeneutics may not be something you'ld recognize, though, but it's hardly unique or rare in North America or Europe.

 

[Chaleb]

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think my church is particularly soft on sin. Corporate confession of sin and a word of pardon is part of every service, and the preaching is from the same lectionary Methodists, Lutherans, and Catholics generally use. Our biblical hermeneutics may not be something you'ld recognize, though, but it's hardly unique or rare in North America or Europe.

Im actually trying to stay out of this Thread, but, i keep getting these posts.... which obligates me to respond.

So, here is the thing..

You said......

"""""' I don't consider a book that merely talks about being gay as OK would be obscene"""""

Yet, if this book is written to a 6 yr old, then that is homosexual recruiting.
Its presenting the NT denying belief that "gay is Ok", and that is not biblical., and to try to brain wash a child this way is demonic.
And for the School System to do this to children is ungodly, at least.

So, we can discuss this more, or we can leave it there.

You decide that, FireDragon76.

 

[Larniavc]

I believe the sad souls that produce this filth enjoy debauching young minds.

After all we know they are miserable in their sin and in their sorry state they naturally wish others to
be similarly unhappy and despairing.

Kids are easy pickings.

You know how many people think Christians are hateful?

It’s this kind of message that fuels that.

 

[LesSme]

You know how many people think Christians are hateful?

It’s this kind of message that fuels that.

We hate the sin, not the sinners.

 

[rjs330]

Teen sex comedy: I'm thinking of movies like "American Pie" and "Porky's". I'm not a fan of the genre, so I can't list how much bare skin we see in each movie, or which ones have the most raunchy sex jokes, but a common theme is high school boys trying (and sometimes succeeding) to lose their virginity. Since these were released nationally, I had assumed they showed up in Florida theatres as well.

Aren't most of those movies R rated? Which means you have to be 17 to see it?

 

[PloverWing]

Aren't most of those movies R rated? Which means you have to be 17 to see it?

Yes, and on the whole, they're awful, a waste of 2 hours of your life. I'm just wondering whether they're illegal in the state of Florida. The law surprised me, and I'm trying to explore what it does and does not prohibit.

 

[rjs330]

Yes, and on the whole, they're awful, a waste of 2 hours of your life. I'm just wondering whether they're illegal in the state of Florida. The law surprised me, and I'm trying to explore what it does and does not prohibit.

Yet those books you support aren't Waste of time?

Why would R rated movies be illegal? They are already regulated by age appropriateness. Are you under the impression that Florida is simply headed towards being G rated state?

I think what Florida is doing is what the movies have been doing for a very long time. Which is simply to make sure that the books in the schools are age appropriate and the kids don't have access to books they shouldn't based on their age.

Makes perfect sense to me as a parent. I can't be there at school to make sure the kids are making the right choices so I have to mak sure the schools are.

Parents can always get the books for the kids if they want them to read them. Just like parents can take kids to R rated movies.

This regulation has come because apparently the schools who are supposed to be in charge of this are failing in their job.

 

[PloverWing]

Yet those books you support aren't Waste of time?

A couple of the books on the banned list are excellent books for adult readers, just not appropriate for young children. The chief point to discuss is where teen readers fall in that continuum between young children and adults.

Why would R rated movies be illegal? They are already regulated by age appropriateness. Are you under the impression that Florida is simply headed towards being G rated state?

In an earlier post in this thread, @FireDragon76 said that artworks depicting minors engaging in sex acts are illegal in Florida. I'm not a resident of Florida, but FireDragon76 is, so I'm taking his word for what the law is. My feeling is that a movie like American Pie and a book like Flamer both have similar levels of "adult" content involving characters who are teenage boys, so (as a legal question) I'm surprised if the law places them in different categories.

(An important note: Neither the movie nor the book involves the filming of actual minors. Filming actual minors in sexual situations is bad, because they are too young to give informed consent. I think we're all agreed on that.)

Makes perfect sense to me as a parent. I can't be there at school to make sure the kids are making the right choices so I have to mak sure the schools are.

In another, similar, thread (Florida TV Cuts Feed as Ron DeSantis Shows Explicit Content in School Books), you've raised the point that the left and right don't trust each other and aren't listening to each other, and each is making the other side react in extreme ways. That's a good point, and I'll probably respond to that in the other thread later today.

You're nervous, as a parent, that your kids are being taught values in school that you disagree with. I also, as a parent, am nervous that a school governed by DeSantis-style rules would teach my kids (well, grandkids now) values that I disagree with. It could be productive to have some conversations about what's really important to each group of parents, and what could be compromised to accommodate others' sensibilities.

 

[Larniavc]

We hate the sin, not the sinners.

Doesn't matter. Being unemotionally offensive and needlessly vile to people does not make it okay.

 

[rjs330]

You're nervous, as a parent, that your kids are being taught values in school that you disagree with. I also, as a parent, am nervous that a school governed by DeSantis-style rules would teach my kids (well, grandkids now) values that I disagree with. It could be productive to have some conversations about what's really important to each group of parents, and what could be compromised to accommodate others' sensibilities.

At this point all Florida is doing with these books is determining whether they are appropriate or not and what age they might be. Just like movies are rated.

There is nothing Florida is doing that should concern you about what they are TEACHING. The teachers are teaching the kids and if there is something they are teaching that you disagree with then I'd like to hear it.

This is all about books and the appropriateness of them not about what teachers must teach.

 

[LesSme]

Doesn't matter. Being unemotionally offensive and needlessly vile to people does not make it okay.

You’re entitled to your opinion of course but I am not vile to anyone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually i was not trying to hijack the Thread.

Never said you were

I was literally trying to show a member here that if you accept homosexuality as the culture directs, then you're deceived.
They also explained to me that their Church is soft on sin.

Sorry, it looked like you were asking for their views on 1 of the 2 things I mentioned.

Hopefully your's isn't ana The 1st

I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A couple of the books on the banned list are excellent books for adult readers, just not appropriate for young children. The chief point to discuss is where teen readers fall in that continuum between young children and adults.



In an earlier post in this thread, @FireDragon76 said that artworks depicting minors engaging in sex acts are illegal in Florida. I'm not a resident of Florida, but FireDragon76 is, so I'm taking his word for what the law is. My feeling is that a movie like American Pie and a book like Flamer both have similar levels of "adult" content involving characters who are teenage boys, so (as a legal question) I'm surprised if the law places them in different categories.

(An important note: Neither the movie nor the book involves the filming of actual minors. Filming actual minors in sexual situations is bad, because they are too young to give informed consent. I think we're all agreed on that.)



In another, similar, thread (Florida TV Cuts Feed as Ron DeSantis Shows Explicit Content in School Books), you've raised the point that the left and right don't trust each other and aren't listening to each other, and each is making the other side react in extreme ways. That's a good point, and I'll probably respond to that in the other thread later today.

You're nervous, as a parent, that your kids are being taught values in school that you disagree with. I also, as a parent, am nervous that a school governed by DeSantis-style rules would teach my kids (well, grandkids now) values that I disagree with. It could be productive to have some conversations about what's really important to each group of parents, and what could be compromised to accommodate others' sensibilities.

You're familiar with the term "dog whistle" as it refers to hidden messages to particular groups?

And what exactly is being taught in "DeSantis' Florida" that you don't want your grandchildren exposed to?

 

[PloverWing]

And what exactly is being taught in "DeSantis' Florida" that you don't want your grandchildren exposed to?

I think my strongest genuine concern, as it would relate to my grandchildren, is twofold:

1) I've been concerned that gay or transgender/nonbinary students and teachers would have to hide their identities in school. Can students mention their parents, or draw a picture of them, if the parents are a same-sex couple? Can a teacher mention their spouse? Can a teacher use a gender-neutral title instead of "Mr" or "Ms"?

2) I've also been concerned about the implicit message that is given if certain families have to be hidden. "My parents' names are Jane and Sally!" "Oh, um, we can't talk about that." There's a message being taught in that.

My concerns have been relieved a bit by this document from the NEA: https://www.nea.org/sites/default/files/2022-06/FL Dont Say Gay KYR - Updated2022.06.pdf . This document states that there are federal civil rights protections for students and teachers:

"Although many questions remain to be answered about how the “Don’t Say Gay” law will be interpreted and applied, and it will take some time for legal challenges to the law to be resolved, it is important to know that federal anti-discrimination laws govern over conflicting state law. Federal civil rights laws prohibit Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” law from being enforced by school districts in a way that results in discrimination or harassment of staff or students based on their sexual orientation or gender identity. That means, for example, that a school district may not prohibit only LGBTQ+ educators from answering students’ questions about their families, may not prohibit recognition and discussion in class only of LGBTQ+ families, and may not require that only LGBTQ+ students hide their sexual orientation or gender identity at school."

So it may be that my children and grandchildren are protected by federal-level laws, and I can relax. I don't think those federal protections used to be there, so I'm still adjusting.

 

[rambot]

We aren't discussing the morality of homosexuality, per se here (which is not permitted). We are discussing the harm that obscene and graphic content can cause, by over-sexualizing children and young adults, and enticing them into potentially dangerous or emotionally harmful situations, and the lack of wisdom of having such books in schools.

But we are taking it as read that that is an outcome.

Do you have some research or data to support that?

What if reading these books ends up being protective factors?

In the same way that telling kids about birth control is a GOOD THING which leads to POSITIVE statistical outcomes even though to some people it is morally questionable and harmful.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think my strongest genuine concern, as it would relate to my grandchildren, is twofold:

1) I've been concerned that gay or transgender/nonbinary students and teachers would have to hide their identities in school. Can students mention their parents, or draw a picture of them, if the parents are a same-sex couple? Can a teacher mention their spouse? Can a teacher use a gender-neutral title instead of "Mr" or "Ms"?

This was nonsense cooked up by the Democratic Party and their media outlets when they started calling the bill the "Don't Say Gay" bill. There's nothing in that legislation that would prevent anything you listed here from happening.

2) I've also been concerned about the implicit message that is given if certain families have to be hidden. "My parents' names are Jane and Sally!" "Oh, um, we can't talk about that." There's a message being taught in that.

Since no one has to hide, I think we can safely dismiss your fears of "implicit messaging". This is the result, I'm afraid, of people failing to understand that the media sources they have come to rely upon as credible are no longer any more credible than media sources those people used to mock like Fox News.

The problem then becomes one of echo chambers. The problem is a little bit bigger on the left...because it has a much larger echo chamber. You can read slightly different variations of the same story about the "Don't Say Gay" bill in 5 or 6 different sources like NPR, CNN, HuffPo, NYT and believe the things you stated above imagining you're well informed. If you don't read the Fox or NYP or Washington Examiner versions of the story....then an entirely different set of facts is never presented to you. For example...

Fact- The bill only refers to curriculum content. It doesn't apply to brief or casual conversations.

If you know this...then the narrative presented by those sources above falls apart. A male teacher won't get fired for telling a 2nd grade student that he went out to dinner with his husband should that student ask him what he did last weekend.

You don't have to take my word for it....or the word of Fox News....you can look up the bill and read it yourself. It's very short, and very clear.

My concerns have been relieved a bit by this document from the NEA: https://www.nea.org/sites/default/files/2022-06/FL Dont Say Gay KYR - Updated2022.06.pdf . This document states that there are federal civil rights protections for students and teachers:

"Although many questions remain to be answered about how the “Don’t Say Gay” law will be interpreted and applied, and it will take some time for legal challenges to the law to be resolved, it is important to know that federal anti-discrimination laws govern over conflicting state law.

Indeed.

Federal civil rights laws prohibit Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” law from being enforced by school districts in a way that results in discrimination or harassment of staff or students based on their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Luckily the law was never written with that purpose in mind.

That means, for example, that a school district may not prohibit only LGBTQ+ educators from answering students’ questions about their families, may not prohibit recognition and discussion in class only of LGBTQ+ families, and may not require that only LGBTQ+ students hide their sexual orientation or gender identity at school."

Depends upon what sort of "discussion" is being had.

So it may be that my children and grandchildren are protected by federal-level laws, and I can relax. I don't think those federal protections used to be there, so I'm still adjusting.

Let's pretend for a moment that the lies you were told about this law were true.

The real problem with taking this case to court over a civil rights violation is the issue of how "gender identity" got added to the civil rights amendment. It was not a change written by congress and then passed. It was literally just written in by Biden, which to my knowledge, isn't a valid method of modifying an amendment.

This means that in order to keep it, it cannot be challenged all the way to the SCOTUS....and those who are trying to have that civil right recognized will be told to drop their case before it gets struck from the amendment or a precedent gets set.

Much like the student loan payout....it's a symbolic benefit, not one the president has the ability to make real.