Towards a biblical view of universalism

[ozso]

Be that as it may, it's a distinction implicit in a number of early church writings. Our willingness to choose evil is not true freedom but a sign of our spiritual immaturity (Irenaeus) or a spiritual malady in need of healing (Origen/Nyssa).

Why did Jesus always choose the good commensurate with the divine will? Maximus is going to say because he was Logos. And as Jesus said he only does what he sees the Father doing, which is a way of saying he was the Logos of God. The Word or Reason of God can only choose good. That is true freedom. And that is the divine intention for human freedom- to be free in Christ is to be free indeed. All that to say, our experience of the freedom to choose evil is not true freedom.

That's not esoteric. And examples of it can be found in scripture. The term "gnomic will" however probably isn't known to most. But this started out with me thinking he used the "God doesn't force people to come to salvation through Christ" argument. But I've never seen someone who believes in universal reconciliation, ever say or imply that force would be involved. So it's a strawman argument as far as I can see. If unbelievers, the wicked et al are to be saved after death, it's going to be in the same way as everyone else who's been saved, not through force, according to Christian universalism. I'm never going to say Christian universalism is definitely correct. But I don't think people should make inaccurate claims about it. I will point out holes in arguments against it when I see them. Which is more often than not.

 

[Der Alte]

Christians do not have free will to obey Christ, but simply obey God's will. The belief in hell is true for a Christian. Those who are not Christians may find a use for free will and disbelief in hell. Remember, you cannot force someone to believe or think like you. Christ has preached love of enemies and forgiving others in order to be forgiven, which is higher than accepting those who are simply different.

Joshua 24:15
(15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.'

 

[ozso]

IF you didnt have free will, then how did you choose what you had to eat today.
How did you choose what clothes you are wearing, right now

And you chose to post to me, and now you chose to read what i just told you.

If we didn't have the will and ability to disobey, then God wouldn't need to chastise us. And Hebrews 12:8 tells us if we go unchastized, we are not truly children of God.

 

[Chaleb]

If we didn't have the will and ability to disobey, then God wouldn't need to chastise us. And Hebrews 12:8 tells us if we go unchastized, we are not children of God.

IF free will isn't there at all as Calvinism teaches, then God is a Cosmic Psychopath, who caused Adam to Sin, and then sent His Son to die for what He caused......and worse.......God wont allow some to believe in Christ.... which means they are born to go to hell then the lake of fire.

Calvinism is evil.
its a Cross denying "doctrine of Devil's". Hebrews 13:9. that teaches that God causes EVIL//SIN, while giving laws and commandments and His Son to the CROSS .... to deal with it.

That "nutz"

 

[IoanC]

Possibly my mistake using the term gnome(gnomic). I borrowed it from someone who seemed to me to use the term to imply that one cannot deliberate between two opposites.

An angel cannot choose good as opposed to evil. He can only do good. While a demon will see good and evil, and will choose one or the other. My concern was that if a being chooses evil because that's all it can, we should not judge and condemn such a person. God has a solution in such an extreme and serious case. Of course, the solution cannot be changing someone by force in order to be like God, but rather God adapting Himself to the true need of one who deliberates between good and evil. The fact that one sees evil could mean that they need some other solution than God or Christianity, which in itself is innocent and true. God being All-Good and All-Powerful should have no problem reponding positively to such a concern/task. Anyway, hell is never a solution. As long as one thinks that hell is a real possibility, nothing works, everything fails, all is bleak.

Anyway, nothing too important. Just could not see how Christian universalism can work for people of other faiths, going as far as atheists and satanists. It is unrealistic that they will become Christian in their lifetime. So, what, God will send such a vast majority of people to hell? I pray not. As well, I don't see how God will bother Himself to convert them to Christianity after death. Too much work.

 

[IoanC]

IF free will isn't there at all as Calvinism teaches, then God is a Cosmic Psychopath, who caused Adam to Sin, and then sent His Son to die for what He caused......and worse.......God wont allow some to believe in Christ.... which means they are born to go to hell then the lake of fire.

Calvinism is evil.
its a Cross denying "doctrine of Devil's". Hebrews 13:9. that teaches that God causes EVIL//SIN, while giving laws and commandments and His Son to the CROSS .... to deal with it.

That "nutz"

Most likely Adam din not sin but was infected by sin, his nature itself being good. He was not the source of his sin, but the victim of it.

 

[ozso]

Possibly my mistake using the term gnome(gnomic). I borrowed it from someone who seemed to me to use the term to imply that one cannot deliberate between two opposites.

An angel cannot choose good as opposed to evil. He can only do good. While a demon will see good and evil, and will choose one or the other.

Where did you get the idea that Satan and his demons didn't start out as angels who rebelled against God?

My concern was that if a being chooses evil because that's all it can, we should not judge and condemn such a person. God has a solution in such an extreme and serious case. Of course, the solution cannot be changing someone by force in order to be like God, but rather God adapting Himself to the true need of one who deliberates between good and evil. The fact that one sees evil could mean that they need some other solution than God or Christianity, which in itself is innocent and true. God being All-Good and All-Powerful should have no problem reponding positively to such a concern/task. Anyway, hell is never a solution. As long as one thinks that hell is a real possibility, nothing works, everything fails, all is bleak.

Anyway, nothing too important. Just could not see how Christian universalism can work for people of other faiths, going as far as atheists and satanists. It is unrealistic that they will become Christian in their lifetime. So, what, God will send such a vast majority of people to hell? I pray not. As well, I don't see how God will bother Himself to convert them to Christianity after death. Too much work.

It would work the same way as it has for people of other faiths, atheists and satanists who have become Christians. I think too many people of every variety you can come with have come to Christ and been saved, for it to be said it's impossible for any particular type of person to be saved.

It seems to be forgotten or unknown to many, when it comes to salvation, how many miraculous transformations have taken place.

 

[Chaleb]

An angel cannot choose good as opposed to evil. He can only do good.

Tell that nonsense to Lucifer and the ANGLES that followed Him and were cast out of Heaven.

 

[IoanC]

Where did you get the idea that Satan and his demons didn't start out as angels who rebelled against God?


It would work the same way as it has for people of other faiths, atheists and satanists who have become Christians. I think too many people of every variety you can come with have come to Christ and been saved, for it to be said it's impossible for any particular type of person to be saved.

It seems to be forgotten or unknown to many, when it comes to salvation, how many miraculous transformations have taken place.

Salvation is too weak a term. But I am maybe too modernistic.
Yes, demons failed as angels because of free will. The Holy Angels are perfect and holy Divine instruments. God planted only virtues and good in them.

 

[ozso]

IF free will isn't there at all as Calvinism teaches, then God is a Cosmic Psychopath, who caused Adam to Sin, and then sent His Son to die for what He caused......and worse.......God wont allow some to believe in Christ.... which means they are born to go to hell then the lake of fire.

Calvinism is evil.
its a Cross denying "doctrine of Devil's". Hebrews 13:9. that teaches that God causes EVIL//SIN, while giving laws and commandments and His Son to the CROSS .... to deal with it.

That "nutz"

IoanC is Eastern Orthodox.

​

 

[Chaleb]

Most likely Adam din not sin but was infected by sin, his nature itself being good. He was not the source of his sin, but the victim of it.

Do you own a bible, or do you just use commentaries, as that is likely why you post what you post.

Listen,

By one man.... SIN and Death came in this world... and upon us all....and that one man is Adam.
Adam's SIN is the fall of us all.
Had Adam not sinned, then Christ didnt need to die for your sin.
Adam rebelled, and rebellion is Iniquity, and iniquity is sin.

 

[ozso]

Salvation is too weak a term. But I am maybe too modernistic.
Yes, demons failed as angels because of free will. The Holy Angels are perfect and holy Divine instruments. God planted only virtues and good in them.

Angelology is pretty much outside my wheelhouse.

 

[Chaleb]

IoanC is Eastern Orthodox.

​

Thank you for the information.

Sometimes when ive been in Jerusalem, in the Old City, ive seen them.

When i listen to this person, i can't connect anything they to the NT, or to The Cross.

 

[ozso]

Do you own a bible, or do you just use commentaries, as that is likely why you post what you post.

Listen,

By one man.... SIN and Death came in this world... and upon us all....and that one man is Adam.
Adam's SIN is the fall of us all.
Had Adam not sinned, then Christ didnt need to die for your sin.
Adam rebelled, and rebellion is Iniquity, and iniquity is sin.

Where did you come up with that idea? Oh yeah, that's what Romans 5 says

 

[ozso]

Thank you for the information.

Sometimes when ive been in Jerusalem, in the Old City, ive seen them.

When i listen to this person, i can't connect anything they to the NT, or to The Cross.

I'm a rather perplexed myself.

 

[Chaleb]

Angelology is pretty much outside my wheelhouse.

Here are some ot the basics.

"Host of Heaven" is the entirety" of the Angelic Host.

"Glory"....as in "Christ in you, the hope of GLORY".... = Glory is heaven

When baby Jesus was born the Heavenly HOST filled up the Skies over Bethlehem and Sang and Praised.

Demons and Demon Spirits are fallen angels.
If you cast out a Demon, you've cast out one of those who followed Lucifer's rebellion and was sent down here with Him.

These Demons enlighten people like John Calvin, and out came his Calvinism.
Calvinism is a demonic theological scourge that the Devil uses against Christianity for hundreds of years.
Hundreds of Millions are deceived by this theology, currently on the earth.

Demons also cause the inspiration for some "new" Bibles that change the word of God, water it down, and change words so that Doctrine is omitted or covered up.

Buddha, Hare Kristna, Scientology..... Eastern Religions...... The Quran.........all of these are "doctrines of Devils'... they are the inspired teaching come though a person, designed by a Devil.

Hebrews 13:9

Something interesting to note. Jesus said of JUDAS....> """""i have chosen you, and one of you is a DEVIL".

Cherubs are a specific type of Angel.... Lucifer was a Cherub... If you seen the Ark of The Covenant in a rendering , you've seen those 2 angels opposite of each other on the Ark of the Covenant ???
Those are "Cherubs".

 

[ozso]

Here are some ot the basics.

"Host of Heaven" is the entirety" of the Angelic Host.

"Glory"....as in "Christ in you, the hope of GLORY".... = Glory is heaven

When baby Jesus was born the Heavenly HOST filled up the Skies over Bethlehem and Sang and Praised.

Demons and Demon Spirits are fallen angels.
If you cast out a Demon, you've cast out one of those who followed Satan's rebellion and was sent down here with Him.

These Demons enlighten people like John Calvin, and out came his Calvinism.
Calvinism is a demonic theological scourge that the Devil uses against Christianity for hundreds of years.
Hundreds of Millions are deceived by this theology, currently on the earth.

Demons also cause the inspiration for some "new" Bibles that change the word of God, water it down, and change words so that Doctrine is omitted or covered up.

Buddha, Hare Kristna, Scientology..... Eastern Religions...... The Quran.........all of these are "doctrines of Devils'... they are the inspired teaching come though a person, designed by a Devil.

Hebrews 13:9

Something interesting to note. Jesus said of JUDAS....> """""i have chosen you, and one of you is a DEVIL".

Cherubs are a specific type of Angel.... Lucifer was a Cherub... If you seen the Ark of The Covenant in a rendering , you've seen those 2 angels opposite of each other on the Ark. ???
Those are "Cherubs".

I meant all the extrabiblical stuff about angels.

 

[Chaleb]

I meant all the extrabiblical stuff about angels.

Understood.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God does not cause you to be disobedient
God is not the author of your sinning

God is the Holy Eedeemer and the Savior and the One who offered Christ as the Blood Atonement, so that the world can be redeemed, one at a time.

That's the Cross of Christ .

then why does this verse say it? do you not believe that it is translated correctly ?

 

[IoanC]

If you are interested in Angelology, there is this old work which is available online: Dionysius the Areopagite: Celestial Hierarchy