Is believing/faith a work ?

[Dah'veed]

There is no indication of timing in this verse as to which came first: saved or called. This passage does tell us that we are saved and called after His giving of Jesus as a gift to bring about our salvation, but not how long after.

And other passages tell us that we receive salvation (justified, washed clean, forgiven) when, after we repent and confess Jesus as our Lord, we are baptized.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;
Whom we confessed when we embraced the Christian faith. Heb 3:1

Since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance of faith; Heb 10:21-22

For he who promised is faithful. Heb 10:23

And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:25

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure its an indication, they were saved then called. The Gospel of Salvation is to them that are saved 1 Cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

No, to do this AND that does not indicate timing. It just means that both are done. “Saved and called” does not in any way tell us which is first.

And in 1 Cor 1:18 you have cause and effect reversed. You think it to be saying it is foolishness BECAUSE they are perishing. Rather, they are perishing because they think it foolishness. Always remember, we are all lost and hopeless until we hear the Gospel, believe and obey it (John 3:18-19, John 8:23-24, James 2:24, Luke 13:3, 5).

 

[Doug Brents]

It sure is unbelief, you are implying that Christs death/blood in and of itself saved no one. Thats unbelief. Faith believes that Christ saved you. You believe the opposite

Absolutely not. It is only by Christ’s death that our sins could be cleansed. But God says that that gift will not be received by anyone who does not obey Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Im going to keep saying it because its true, if a person conditions salvation on what they do, its works, and contrary to grace, cant be both Rom 11:6


And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I figured that was where you were getting your false doctrine, which comes from a poor understanding of this passage. To properly understand this passage you must begin by understanding that Eph 2:8-9 says that grace is received THROUGH faith. And James 2:26 says that without action faith is dead (thus worthless). So then, it is not that works are not required to RECEIVE salvation, it is that works do not EARN salvation. Salvation was provided for before the world was created: we did not, and could not, earn it. But we must obey Christ to receive it.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, to do this AND that does not indicate timing. It just means that both are done. “Saved and called” does not in any way tell us which is first.

And in 1 Cor 1:18 you have cause and effect reversed. You think it to be saying it is foolishness BECAUSE they are perishing. Rather, they are perishing because they think it foolishness. Always remember, we are all lost and hopeless until we hear the Gospel, believe and obey it (John 3:18-19, John 8:23-24, James 2:24, Luke 13:3, 5).

Those whom the preaching of the cross is power of God to, are in a saved state.

 

[Doug Brents]

Those whom the preaching of the cross is power of God to, are in a saved state.

Correction: those to whom the preaching is the power of God BECOME saved when they obey. They were lost and become saved (receive salvation, are washed pure, are cleansed, etc) when they repent (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as their lord (Rom 10:9-10) and are baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Eph 2:1 says we were dead in our sins (not justified before birth), and Rom 6:2-3 says that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ in baptism.

 

[Brightfame52]

Absolutely not. It is only by Christ’s death that our sins could be cleansed. But God says that that gift will not be received by anyone who does not obey Him.

Again Faith reveals that Christ has saved us, you are saying Christ died for people who are lost, thats clearly saying Christs death in and of itself saved nobody, so that's unbelief. You cant call yourself believing in Christ and dont believe His Death in and of itself saved whom He died for,

 

[Brightfame52]

I figured that was where you were getting your false doctrine, which comes from a poor understanding of this passage. To properly understand this passage you must begin by understanding that Eph 2:8-9 says that grace is received THROUGH faith. And James 2:26 says that without action faith is dead (thus worthless). So then, it is not that works are not required to RECEIVE salvation, it is that works do not EARN salvation. Salvation was provided for before the world was created: we did not, and could not, earn it. But we must obey Christ to receive it.

Once again, if you condition salvation on what you do, its works and flat out denies Grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

Correction: those to whom the preaching is the power of God BECOME saved when they obey. They were lost and become saved (receive salvation, are washed pure, are cleansed, etc) when they repent (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as their lord (Rom 10:9-10) and are baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Eph 2:1 says we were dead in our sins (not justified before birth), and Rom 6:2-3 says that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ in baptism.

They are in a saved state when the Gospel comes to them in power. Otherwise the Gospel is hid from them in a lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again Faith reveals that Christ has saved us, you are saying Christ died for people who are lost, thats clearly saying Christs death in and of itself saved nobody, so that's unbelief. You cant call yourself believing in Christ and dont believe His Death in and of itself saved whom He died for,

I am not the one saying that. God is, in Scripture. I have given you the statements of Scripture in clear language.

 

[Doug Brents]

They are in a saved state when the Gospel comes to them in power. Otherwise the Gospel is hid from them in a lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

This is just the parable of the soils restated. These are the soil of the path where the birds (Satan) comes and steals the seed (the Gospel) so they do not believe. As has been demonstrated, ALL are lost in sin before they hear the Gospel. None are saved from birth, else Scripture is a lie, and God cannot lie.

 

[Brightfame52]

I am not the one saying that. God is, in Scripture. I have given you the statements of Scripture in clear language.

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

I think I understand what you are trying to ask, but your wording here makes it hard to be sure.

Jesus death is absolutely sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world. The infinite power of His blood is more than sufficient to cover the finite sin of every human who has ever, or will ever, live. But if we do not accept Jesus and give Him control of our life He will not take our sins from us (Rev 3:20, John 8:12). Our sin remains our own responsibility if we do not submit to Jesus, even though His sacrifice is sufficient to cover those sins.

 

[John Mullally]

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6). Receipt of Christ's atonement at Calvary is conditional as I will show. The atonements provision is received by faith. Another way to put it is that the atonement is sufficient for all, but is only effective for those who believe on Jesus. Analogy: You can lead a horse to water (provision), but you can't make him drink (receive provision).

Jesus atoned for all man's sin. 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 show that Jesus provides atonement for all people - but as I will show that atonement is applied conditionally.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition.

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

Jesus is the Savior for all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all men to be saved and in keeping 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men - but salvation is only applied to believers. Notice that although 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men, especially establishes a distinction for believers. Only believers are saved (John 5:24).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Summary. Jesus died for everyone so that anyone in the world who believes in Him will be saved. God loved the world and gifted it with a Savior, so that if anyone in the world believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. So, if anyone should perish in unbelief, they perished despite an atonement that was sufficient for their salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

I think I understand what you are trying to ask, but your wording here makes it hard to be sure.

Jesus death is absolutely sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world. The infinite power of His blood is more than sufficient to cover the finite sin of every human who has ever, or will ever, live. But if we do not accept Jesus and give Him control of our life He will not take our sins from us (Rev 3:20, John 8:12). Our sin remains our own responsibility if we do not submit to Jesus, even though His sacrifice is sufficient to cover those sins.

You understand, you scared to answer .

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6). Receipt of Christ's atonement at Calvary is conditional as I will show. The atonements provision is received by faith. Another way to put it is that the atonement is sufficient for all, but is only effective for those who believe on Jesus. Analogy: You can lead a horse to water (provision), but you can't make him drink (receive provision).

Jesus atoned for all man's sin. 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 show that Jesus provides atonement for all people - but as I will show that atonement is applied conditionally.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition.

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

Jesus is the Savior for all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all men to be saved and in keeping 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men - but salvation is only applied to believers. Notice that although 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men, especially establishes a distinction for believers. Only believers are saved (John 5:24).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Summary. Jesus died for everyone so that anyone in the world who believes in Him will be saved. God loved the world and gifted it with a Savior, so that if anyone in the world believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. So, if anyone should perish in unbelief, they perished despite an atonement that was sufficient for their salvation.

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

 

[John Mullally]

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

That is an example of a "loaded question" - you can look that up in Wikipedia. I will not restrict my answer to purely "yes" or "no" in responding to a loaded question. Repeatedly asking loaded questions does not promote profitable discourse.

The simple answer is no. Although Christ's atonement saves many; it does not necessarily save anyone because the benefit of the atonement is received conditionally. People have to believe on Jesus to receive the benefit of the atonement. It is all in the Bible as I showed in my last post.

In the same way having available water by itself does not prevent everyone from dying of thirst. People have to ingest (perhaps via an I.V.) beverages or solutions containing water to get its benefit.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is an example of a "loaded question" - you can look that up in Wikipedia. I will not restrict my answer to purely "yes" or "no" in responding to a loaded question.

The simple answer is no. Although Christ's atonement saves many; it does not necessarily save anyone because the benefit of the atonement is received conditionally. People have to believe on Jesus to receive the benefit of the atonement. It is all in the Bible as I showed in my last post.

In the same way having available water by itself does not prevent everyone from dying of thirst. People have to ingest beverages/solutions containing water (perhaps via an I.V.) to get its benefit.

Its not loaded, its what you say is the simple answer, NO ! Which means you dont have Faith in Christ, its unbelief. Faith in Christ receives the knowledge that Christ by His death has saved the individual. So you in unbelief.

 

[John Mullally]

Its not loaded, its what you say is the simple answer, NO ! Which means you dont have Faith in Christ, its unbelief. Faith in Christ receives the knowledge that Christ by His death has saved the individual. So you in unbelief.

Actually I got turned around. My answer (Post 897) to your question (Post 896 and quoted below) should have been "Yes" as I did not read it carefully - but it looks like you understood what I meant.

I will show how your question is loaded:

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

The underlined portion shows that you are presuming that Christ's atonement (accomplished at Calvary) works unconditionally - in other words nothing is required by the individual recipient to receive its benefit. That presumption makes your question a loaded question per Loaded question - Wikipedia. Since as you must know I disagree with that presumption - thus my simple answer is Yes as I believe receiving the benefit of the atonement requires faith by the intended recipient. If you take out the presumption I disagree with by removing the underlined portion of your question, I would say No as believers are saved by the atonement. I see you asked the same loaded question of Doug Brents.

Demanding yes/no answers to loaded questions is not the highest form of argumentation - but I see it is commonly used on these forums. Wikipedia terms those questions as fallacious (again taken from Loaded question - Wikipedia):

The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.​

I am not in unbelief because I believe what the Bible teaches as I outlined in Post 894.

 

[Doug Brents]

You understand, you scared to answer .

No, your question is very poorly worded.

Do you believe that the scripture teaches that Christ death in and of itself saved no one He died for? Yes or No please

I underlined the confusing part. Obviously Jesus death saves some, else no one would be saved at all. So I don’t know what you mean by ”His death saved no one He died for”.

Jesus’ death, in and of itself, could save everyone who has or will ever live. However, it does save only those who believe the Gospel and obey it.