Question about praying to Mary

Xeno.of.athens

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my answer to you is from your own writing see below;

"The purpose of scripture, whether it be religious or philosophical in nature, is not to provide entertainment or pleasure, but rather to serve as a source of guidance and wisdom. The true value of scripture lies in its ability to offer insights and lessons that can help individuals live meaningful and fulfilling lives. Engaging in arguments about scripture may provide a sense of intellectual stimulation, but it is essential to remember that the ultimate goal should be to understand and internalise its teachings, and apply them in one's daily life. Ultimately, obeying scripture is likely to bring a deeper sense of purpose and fulfillment than simply engaging in arguments about it."

The bold underlined part of your post is what I am doing now. I rarely interpret scriptures or have to, many passages of the bible such as prophecy ( revelations ) can be correctly interpreted in part with other bible scripture from different books ( Daniel ) they complement one another. I admit I have still quite a lot to learn, scriptures are a treasure and take time to absorb.

Peace

JFF
The underlined text from one of my posts is in fact about the Church's teaching rather than any person's independent interpretation of scripture. But I do understand why you've taken it to be about personal interpretations; however personal interpretations is precisely why people have arguments about scripture.
 
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Valletta

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my answer to you is from your own writing see below;

"The purpose of scripture, whether it be religious or philosophical in nature, is not to provide entertainment or pleasure, but rather to serve as a source of guidance and wisdom. The true value of scripture lies in its ability to offer insights and lessons that can help individuals live meaningful and fulfilling lives. Engaging in arguments about scripture may provide a sense of intellectual stimulation, but it is essential to remember that the ultimate goal should be to understand and internalise its teachings, and apply them in one's daily life. Ultimately, obeying scripture is likely to bring a deeper sense of purpose and fulfillment than simply engaging in arguments about it."

The bold underlined part of your post is what I am doing now. I rarely interpret scriptures or have to, many passages of the bible such as prophecy ( revelations ) can be correctly interpreted in part with other bible scripture from different books ( Daniel ) they complement one another. I admit I have still quite a lot to learn, scriptures are a treasure and take time to absorb.

Peace

JFF
If you read much Holy Scripture then you are interpreting that Scripture when you read it. All of Scripture should be taken into account.
 
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DragonFox91

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The NT letters are clearly written with the expectation they would be understandable to true believers. Otherwise a group in the intended audience could say 'this is just a letter, we may be misinterpreting it, why don't we wait for an Apostle to explain it.' & there'd be no point in writing the letter in the 1st place. It'd be better for the Apostle to wait for him to get there so he can explain it to them in the flesh & debunk them in person rather than send a letter & give them time to stray. We don't see that. We see these letters being sent with the clear trust people would be able to correctly interpret them. No magisterium required, only an understanding of context.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The NT letters are clearly written with the expectation they would be understandable to true believers. Otherwise a group in the intended audience could say 'this is just a letter, we may be misinterpreting it, why don't we wait for an Apostle to explain it.' & there'd be no point in writing the letter in the 1st place. It'd be better for the Apostle to wait for him to get there so he can explain it to them in the flesh & debunk them in person rather than send a letter & give them time to stray. We don't see that. We see these letters being sent with the clear trust people would be able to correctly interpret them. No magisterium required, only an understanding of context.
By and large the churches which received letters did seek clarifications from the authors whenever they were unsure of the intended meaning, and when a local church was sure of an interpretation but mistaken about it, the authors of the new testament wrote back to them to correct the erroneous interpretation. The picture in the New Testament of Christians interpreting scripture is one of apostolic authority not only being recognised but sought out. One cannot construct an independent interpretation rights movement from new testament materials; independent interpretations rights is the product of modern philosophical ideas from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment with further development over the centuries. In the New testament a magisterium not only was required but its need was implicit in every church interaction we have recorded.

One of the key passages in the New Testament that discusses magisterial authority is found in the letter of Paul to Titus, in which he instructs Titus to appoint leaders in the various cities of Crete. These leaders, referred to as "elders," were to be men of good character who could teach and guide the community. In this sense, they held a magisterial authority over the community, as they were responsible for maintaining order and directing the beliefs and practices of the members.
Another significant reference to magisterial authority can be found in the letters of the apostle Peter, in which he writes about the responsibilities of those in positions of leadership in the Christian community. He states that leaders should be examples of good behaviour, serving as models for the rest of the community. They were to use their authority to instruct and guide the community, encouraging them to live lives of holiness and obedience to God.

The gospels also provide examples of magisterial authority in the actions of Jesus and the disciples. For example, in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus appointed the Twelve disciples to be with him and to be sent out to preach and heal. He gave them authority over demons and sicknesses, demonstrating the power and influence they held in the community. Similarly, in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus sent out the seventy-two disciples with authority over unclean spirits and to heal the sick.

The New Testament references to magisterial authority refer to the power and influence held by religious leaders in the early Christian communities. This authority was used to direct the beliefs and practices of members, to maintain order, and to instruct and guide the community in a way that reflected the teachings and example of Jesus. Every letter written by an apostle or by one who was called to exercise apostolic authority is indisputable evidence of the recognition of magisterial authority and the exercise of it within the Church while the Apostles were still physically and personally present on the Earth.
 
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Valletta

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The NT letters are clearly written with the expectation they would be understandable to true believers. Otherwise a group in the intended audience could say 'this is just a letter, we may be misinterpreting it, why don't we wait for an Apostle to explain it.' & there'd be no point in writing the letter in the 1st place. It'd be better for the Apostle to wait for him to get there so he can explain it to them in the flesh & debunk them in person rather than send a letter & give them time to stray. We don't see that. We see these letters being sent with the clear trust people would be able to correctly interpret them. No magisterium required, only an understanding of context.
That does not make a letter God-breathed. The prayerful process of the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. The first list of NT books was not until the Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of Athanasius in 367 A.D.!
 
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Lost Witness

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His love to respond with Love to the petitions of the millions who seek to follow them as followers of Jesus Christ throughout their lives.
the Problem with this is, Exodus 20:3
GOD IS JEALOUS,
Praying or "following" another is worship and GOD IS JEALOUS Exodus 20:4-5

please note how he says Idols of anything in heaven, where's mary? in heaven? why make Mary an idol?


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You



Shalom Aleichem
 
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concretecamper

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Lets see if writing a single sentence can be 100 percent clear in it's intended meaning.

"I didn't say you stole money."

What does this sentence mean? The answer is, it depends on where you put the emphasis.

I didn't say you stole money: can mean someone else said you stole money.

I didn't say you stole money: can mean that I may have implied you stole money

I didn't say you stole money: can mean that I said someone else stole money.

I didn't say you stole money: can mean I said that you borrowed the money.

I didn't say you stole money: can mean I said you stole something else other than money.

To think that the written word doesn't need clarification doesn't make sense to me.
 
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Valletta

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the Problem with this is, Exodus 20:3
GOD IS JEALOUS,
Praying or "following" another is worship and GOD IS JEALOUS Exodus 20:4-5

please note how he says Idols of anything in heaven, where's mary? in heaven? why make Mary an idol?
Yours is a common mistake for someone that does not have an in depth knowledge of the Bible You took one line out of the context of the whole Bible and made your own interpretation. God ordered that two cherubim of gold be made, cherubim are in Heaven. Was God commanding His people to make the cherubim idols?
 
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The Liturgist

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the Problem with this is, Exodus 20:3
GOD IS JEALOUS,
Praying or "following" another is worship and GOD IS JEALOUS Exodus 20:4-5

please note how he says Idols of anything in heaven, where's mary? in heaven? why make Mary an idol?


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You



Shalom Aleichem

God is indeed jealous, but we do not make an idol of the Theotokos: she is venerated but as per her own desire the worship is afforded solely to her Son.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Question to Catholics: wouldn't Mary have to be omniscient to hear and process hundreds of prayers being prayed to her in a steady stream every minute 24/7?

Note: input from former or non-Catholics is welcome.

When Mary and the saints got to heaven, and received God's imprimatur, God would have given them powers way over and beyond those that they had on earth. We have no idea what goes on up there.

Secondly Mary and the Saints don't directly answer prayer - they pass them on to God. He's the one who answers them.

The final line of the Rosary for example, "... pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". We're asking Mary to pray for us. I presume you ask your friends to pray for you from time to time?

Since they've proven themselves to be God's friends, God is more prepared to listen to them just as you would be more prepared to listen to someone whom you know and trust compared to someone you don't know well, and who has not proven themselves to you.

Christ's first miracle took place at the request of Mary, His Mother - the wine at the wedding of Cana. He was the Son of God, and He listened to HIs earthly mother.

If you make a point about how He seemed to rebuke her, in actual fact He was making it clear she was setting him on the road to Calvary by her request. From that time on, the die was cast.

At her request.

And just as He heeded her request then, so God heeds her requests now.

As my old Protestant pastor said to me once "They're (Mary and the saints) doing something up there".
 
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Ceallaigh

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God is indeed jealous, but we do not make an idol of the Theotokos: she is venerated but as per her own desire the worship is afforded solely to her Son.
Looks like an idol and appears to be treated as such, but isn't despite appearances to the contrary.

 
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IoanC

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Traditional Orthodox Christian prayers do sometimes address Mary/The Theotokos as All-Powerful. Orthodox believe that Mary is The Mother of Jesus who is God. She gave birth to both the Humanity of Jesus and His Divine Nature, Jesus being both God and Man. So, She contained the uncontainable One. She is also sometimes asked to intercede before Her Son as a Mother. Since She is able to determine God, Her Son who generally alone is All-Powerful, She can also be considered All-Powerful. Her actual personal attributes are not apparently formulated by Orthodoxy, but basic logic generally concludes that She has Godlike qualities and not human ones. She may also be considered beyond gender such as God.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Don't deflect. Was that common practice?
How could you know the driver's intention if you had no insight into his state of mind?

You did write "Looks like an idol and appears to be treated as such, but isn't despite appearances to the contrary."

For a man to reverence an image of Blessed Mary, offer the sign of the cross (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit), offer a prayer while kneeling before the image of Blessed Mary, is any of this adoration of any save God?
 
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Ceallaigh

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How could you know the driver's intention if you had no insight into his state of mind?
Let's go by the description: "My video doorbell captured this beautiful moment when a FedEx delivery person noticed our statue of Mary and knelt down for a quick moment of prayer during his work day. We are never too busy to pray!"
You did write "Looks like an idol and appears to be treated as such, but isn't despite appearances to the contrary."

For a man to reverence an image of Blessed Mary, offer the sign of the cross (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit), offer a prayer while kneeling before the image of Blessed Mary, is any of this adoration of any save God?
That's hard to say. I get the idea people who do this are more comfortable praying to Mary than they are praying directly to God.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Let's go by the description: "My video doorbell captured this beautiful moment when a FedEx delivery person noticed our statue of Mary and knelt down for a quick moment of prayer during his work day. We are never too busy to pray!"

In other words he got down on his knees before a statue and prayed to it.
Prayed before the statue. Nothing in the video will tell you who he prayed to.
 
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concretecamper

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Screenshot_2023-02-17-12-41-29-820.jpg

Maybe other statues decided to do the same.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Prayed before the statue. Nothing in the video will tell you who he prayed to.
I get the idea people who do this are more comfortable praying to Mary or whoever than they are praying directly to God.
 
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