Undecided in eschatology

[5thKingdom]

Many scripture Prophesies clearly inform us about a new Temple that will be built in Jerusalem during the end times and will be the place King Jesus will reign the world from in the Millennium. These are undeniable Bible statements.

You could not be more wrong.
After the Great Commission of the Church Age is completed [Mat 28:18-20]
then the FOURTH BEAST arises, which is shown as the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


There is no PHYSICAL Jewish Temple built.
The "temple" in which the "Man of Sin" sits is NOT a physical building.


You err because you do not understand Scripture.
Let me help you.


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The KINGDOM OF GOD shall be TAKEN from you, [Jews]
and GIVEN to a [Christian] nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


I will show you the chronology of the Second, Third and Fourth "Kingdoms of Heaven"


First we have the Jewish "Kingdom"... the 2nd Beast on earth


Mat 22:1-7
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king,
which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would
not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen
and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways,
one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Then we have the Christian "Kingdom"... the 3rd Beast on earth


Mat 22:8-10
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out
into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Then we have the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"... the 4th Beast on earth


Mat 22:11-14
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called [by the Gospel], but few are chosen [to be saved].


At the END of the Fourth Beast the (5th) Eternal Kingdom begins
It is really as simple as that.


This is the chronology of the History of Man (after the Pre-Flood Kingdom)
There is NO JEWISH TEMPLE involved in Scripture AFTER the Jewish Kingdom
was GIVEN to the people (both Jewish and Gentile) following Christ.


.

 

[DavidPT]

But tell me...
when is the "Time-of-the-End" and when is the "Season and Time"?
If we cannot discern WHEN those periods occur in the History of Man then
we cannot offer an "informed opinion" on the events of the Last Saints on earth,
because Daniel 12 provides some PROMISES about the "Time-of-the-End"
and the "Season and Time" destroys all previous eschatology.

.

I attempt to somewhat take that on, but not in this thread, but in a thread you recently started---The Final Harvest.

 

[5thKingdom]

I stated that Christ tells us what "is"the first resurrection after this return.

I have provided you with several SCRIPTURES clearly stating the first resurrection is when we are "born again"
AND this is the "traditional" understanding of the church since the beginning.

You respond with showing spiritual language of prophecies you do not understand.
Citing Rev 20 as your "proof" is nonsense because you do not understand WHAT Rev 20 teaches...
are you aware it teaches about TWO separate and distinct "Beasts"?

You can pretend the first resurrection is NOT when we are transitions from DEATH into LIFE...
but you are just pretending AND you are just repeating what the church declared as heresy
hundreds of year ago.

Please do not pretend this ISSUE has not been a matter of debate since the Reformation,
OR that your "interpretation" was accepted by the church until recently.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

I attempt to somewhat take that on, but not in this thread, but in a thread you recently started---The Final Harvest.

Good

 

[Zao is life]

IMO, the time of the end can be understood in 2 senses. In one sense it means the time that brings about the literal end of things eventually, that this time period is what causes the literal end to eventually occur. And in another sense it is meaning the literal end. A cpl of examples would be the following.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We have to keep in mind here, the time of the end per verse 9 is not meaning the literal end of this age at this point, the fact it is involving verses 10-12. IOW, it is those verses that cause the time of the end to begin which then leads to the literal end, where I take that to mean verse 12, the fact there are no more days once this 1335th day arrives. Actually, verse 12 and verse 13 are both examples of the literal end of this age, while verse 9 is an example of the time of the end that must begin and be accomplished first, before there can be the literal end of this age.

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?


As to this passage, this part---that it shall be for a time, times, and an half--is involving the time of the end that leads to the literal end of this age. And that this part---all these things shall be finished---is meaning the literal end of this age. It is involving the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Right or wrong, that's how I tend to reason it anyway.

I do understand why you say this - which is why I keep saying compare Daniel 12:6-7 with Revelation 10:6-7. After being asked, "How long till the end?" Daniel is told that it would be 3.5 years. But in Revelation 10:6-7 the 3.5 years has passed, there is no more delay. This is how the Net Bible translates Revelation 10:

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
6 and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed, just as he has proclaimed to his servants the prophets."

I recall a debate between Amils and Premils about the KJV rendering of "there will no longer be time". I understand Revelation 10:6-7 to mean once the 3.5 years has come to a close, and the 7th trumpet is about to sound. So to my understanding Daniel is talking about the 42 months reign of the beast, and Revelation 10:6-7 is talking about the close of that period, in other words, "the end of the ending".

I'm not denying the possibility of an urgent call to repentance on the part of the two prophets/two witnesses and possibly the saints who remain faithful, and I'm not denying that when the beast has ascended from the pit and goes to war against the saints (the way A4E had gone to war against the saints of his day), the main thrust of the message being preached to the world will be what we read about in Revelation 14:6-12.

But I really don't believe that there will be any "new" revelation or "new" anything. I think in the face of the warning about false prophets abounding during the final 3.5 years, we need to be even more diligent to search the scriptures with regard to anyone claiming to bring a "new" message or "new" revelation, or "new revelation" about "sealed mysteries" that ostensibly have now been unsealed, whatever that message may be.

In any case, the 3.5 years is not upon us yet. Way too early for the unsealing of what Daniel was told to seal in Revelation 12 or what the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10.

So that's how I understand the two passages. Definitely I believe both Daniel 12 and Revelation 10 (and Revelation 11; Revelation 13, Revelation 19:11-21; Revelation 17:11-18; Revelation 16, (and more - the introduction to Revelation 16 is in Revelation 15); and at least the 6th and 7th trumpets, but probably the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets; and the 6th seal, etc, are all talking about things that will be taking place during the closing 3.5 years of this age.

 

[Zao is life]

I guess it all depends on how one might look at it over all. What does Jesus' one time only sacrifice accomplish? Does it not accomplish covering one on a daily basis? Doesn't that technically add up to a daily sacrifice, but not that Christ has to literally sacrifice Himself on a daily basis in order to via His one time sacrifice, cover one on a daily basis. How can any of this even be involving sacrifices having to do with animals? Especially since what you brought up in Daniel 8 here, though I realize some interpreters disagree, is involving events in the final days of this present age?

We have to look at some of these things spiritually not literally. A literal temple in the 21st century, where unbelieving Jews are once again sacrificing animals, makes zero sense. And what makes even less sense, assuming that this is true, would be that the AC is the one that puts a stop to the sacrificing. Which then would be a good thing, except how could it be a good thing if the most evil entity on the planet is the one causing the sacrifices to cease? How does that help the AC? Wouldn't he be doing unbelieving Jews a favor since they shouldn't be sacrificing animals in a rebuilt temple to begin with, the fact Christ already made that unnecessary by the sacrificing of Himself 2000 years ago?

I wish that all Christians would understand that the history surrounding God's elect and the biblical prophecy associated with it is full of type/antitypes (and therefore, repeats of certain prophecies). The 4th beast that relates to A4E, to his defilement of the temple, to his war against the saints of the day, and his defeat at the hands of the Maccabees, ALSO relates to the beast spoken of in Revelation 13 that will be destroyed by Christ.

@DavidPT I had to edit this: So I believe the little horn is talking about A4E and 'the antichrist', with A4E (I've given him a number below: beast # IV-A) being the first of two forth beasts, A4E being the type of the man of sin, or the final beast (IV-B):-

(I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babyloniian kingdom.
(II) Bear: Persian kingdom.
(III) Leopard: Greek kingdom

The leopard kingdom divided into four parts after the death of Alexander the Great. Out of one of these four rose:

(IV-A) Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the history of what took place when A4E rose to power is going to repeat itself with different actors and different surrounding details at the close of this age, when the antitype of A4E (the man of sin) defiles the tabernacle of God (the church, the body of Christ) by exalting himself and claiming to be God, and the apostasy occurs as a result of the great tribulation that he will bring upon the saints.

This is exactly the same as what A4E did in his day - except he put a physical idol in a physical temple, and persecuted the faithful saints.

Notice that Revelation 13:2 is telling us about a kingdom (IV-B) whose power will be a combination of the first three kingdoms including its own power (the 4th beast/kingdom).

This king, who is also the 8th king of Revelation 17 (with whom the 10 kings of the 7th kingdom of Revelation 17 will be ruling for one hour; and to whom they will hand over their power and authority)

- is kingdom (IV- B), i.e the antitype of A4E. (IV-A) i.e the 2nd of two kingdoms mentioned by Daniel in Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11. It's one prophecy but two men get to fulfill it - the type and the antitype - IV-A and IVB, each one in his own turn - but the details of the way in which it takes place the 2nd time around will not be exactly the same as the first time around.

A4E (kingdom IV-A) fulfilled basically everything in Daniel 8 and 11, but he is still the type of "the antichrist" (IV-B), and the prophecies surrounding this forth beast refer to both men and to both periods, although I do believe we should ditch applying the details of the history surrounding IV-A to IV-B ALSO. Most of the aspects and details in Daniel 8 and 11 were fulfilled "to the crossing of the t" by A4E.

 

[5thKingdom]

I believe the little horn is talking about A4E, and A4E (I've given him a number below: beast # IV-A) is the first of two forth beasts, A4E being the type of the man of sin, or the final beast (IV-B):-

(I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babyloniian kingdom.
(II) Bear: Persian kingdom.
(III) Leopard: Greek kingdom

You have TWO problems with your "interpretation"... and both are CRITICAL problems that DESTROY you theory.


(1) The FIRST problem is the Bible PROMISES the truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast would remain
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End".


That means that EVERY "interpretation" of Daniel's Beasts made BEFORE the "Time-of-the-End" MUST BE WRONG
because it was developed when the Bible PROMISED the Truth was "closed-up" and "sealed"


YOUR INTERPRETATION was developed about 500 years ago.
Therefore, we can know absolutely it MUST BE WRONG.


Your "gospel" has been destroyed by Scripture (Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10)


(2) The SECOND problem with your "interpretation" is that it DOES NOT account for the "Season and Time"
on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast has been destroyed.



While this was not taught or understood by Saints living during the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom/Beast,
and while this was never taught or understood by Saints living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom/Beast,
the Bible speaks (in many places) about a period AFTER the destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast,
during a time specifically named the “Season and Time”. The Gospel of the Last Saints includes this Truth.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The Old Testament is very clear, there is a “Season and Time” on earth after the destruction of the Fourth Beast
(Revelation Beast), in which the previous Beasts continue to exist on earth, just without “dominion” (authority/rule).
The Bible teaches a “Season and Time” on earth after people of the Fourth Kingdom are “given to the Burning Flame”.
Remembering the end of Daniel’s Fourth Beast is the SAME EVENT as the end of the Revelation Beast, we should
be able to find parallel passages about this end-time event in the New Testament – and that is exactly what we find:


Rev 19:20
And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet [the Anti-Christ]
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the Mark of the Beast,
and them that worshipped his Image. These both were cast alive into a Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.



You don’t need to be a Bible scholar to see Daniel’s Fourth Beast being “given to the Burning Flame”
is the same event as the Revelation Beast being “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. In both cases it represents
the end of the Fourth “Kingdom” on earth. In both cases it represents the end of the Great Tribulation “Kingdom”
and the end of Satan’s “Little Season”. In both cases it represents the people of the Fourth Kingdom being “cast alive”
into the eternal torment most people think of as “Hell”.


And that causes a problem for the (3rd) Christian Kingdom Gospel. Christian eschatology doesn’t teach about
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after Daniel’s Fourth Beast (the Revelation Beast) is destroyed.
The Christian Gospel does not even include a Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” after the Church Age is completed.
The Christian Gospel cannot harmonize some people living on earth after others have been “cast alive” into the
“Burning Flame” or “Lake of Fire”. This Biblical Truth remained “closed-up” and “sealed” until the Last Saints.


Christian Saints were never meant to understand the historical fulfillment of “Time of the End” events [Acts 1:7].
Just as the Jewish Saints were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom”, so also, Christian Saints
were never meant to understand the end of their “Kingdom of Heaven”. The Jewish Gospel and Christian Gospel
did not understand Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom/Beast”. Those Truths remained “sealed” until the “Time of the End”.


Context: The people living in the Fourth Beast


During the (3rd) Christian “Kingdom of Heaven” many people developed incorrect theories about the people
called ten “horns” and ten “kings” in Daniel 7 (and Revelation 17). We can know absolutely that each and every
theory about these people was incorrect because the Bible promises the Truth would remain “closed-up” and “sealed”
until the “Time of the End”, when the Last Saints “shall understand” the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies. [Dan 12:8-10]
Nevertheless, some people today still believe these incorrect theories about Daniel’s Four Beasts representing four
physical/political Kingdoms – instead of the four spiritual “Kingdoms of Heaven” they actually represent.


Some people believe the ten “horns” and ten “kings” represent the European Union (the modern Tower of Babel).
Others think these “horns/kings” represent the Babylonian Empire followed by the Persian Empire, the Greek Empire
and the Roman Empire. Not only can we know the theories were incorrect because they were developed while the Truth
remained “closed-up” and “sealed”… but we can also know these theories were incorrect because none of them included
people living on earth for a “Season and Time” after people in the Fourth Beast had been “given to the Burning Flame”.


Dan 7:11-12
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] Horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the Burning Flame.
As concerning the rest of the Beasts [the remaining Beasts], they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a Season and Time.


The “Season and Time” on earth after destruction of the Fourth/Revelation Beast (after Satan’s “Little Season”),
is the same period Daniel’s prophecy calls the “Time of the End” when the Last Saints “shall understand”.
During this time people live on earth (without dominion) after others are “given to the Burning Flame”.



When the Fourth Beast is viewed as the Roman Empire, the European Union or any other physical/political Kingdom,
there's NO WAY to harmonize an eschatological doctrine that Daniel's "remaining" Kingdoms continue to exist on
earth for a “Season and Time” after the people living Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom have been "cast alive" into Hell.


Daniel's Four Beasts are not physical/political Kingdoms (governments), they can only be spiritual Kingdoms.
And Daniel 7:11-12 immediately destroys all Christian eschatology since it reveals people are living on earth
for a “Season and Time” after people living in the Fourth Kingdom are “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”.


Obviously, the Babylonian Empire, Persian Empire and Greek Empire do not continue to exist on earth,
without dominion, [Dan 7:11-12] after the people of the Roman Empire have been “given to the Burning Flame”
or “cast alive into the Lake of Fire”. Daniel’s Kingdoms/Beasts are spiritual (not physical/political) Kingdoms.
And the “Season and Time” or the “Time of the End” on earth occurs after the destruction of Daniel’s Fourth Beast,
but before the end of the world


.

 

[Zao is life]

You have TWO problems with your "interpretation"... and both are CRITICAL problems that DESTROY you theory.


(1) The FIRST problem is the Bible PROMISES the truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast would remain
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End".

The only "theory" existing in your above post is the one you marked (1).

In my opinion your imagination has run wild with you, and so now you believe that this misinterpretation of yours is "fact".

@5thKingdom AND on top of this, you keep falsely accusing whoever disagrees with you of "rejecting scripture".

@5thKingdom Your other fallacy is to believe and claim that you have this "hidden knowledge" regarding the four "kingdoms of heaven" (I'm not even sure if you have the four beasts confused with the one and only Kingdom of Heaven because your posts about this are all over the place).

@5thKingdom 3rd and last time this post is edited to add to it: So I'll stick with what I've already said in Post #126 about why Daniel's forth beast refers to two 'antichrist' figures - A4E (IV-A) and the man of sin (IV-B). The first being the type of the second. Too bad that because you can't see it, according to you I'm "rejecting scripture" just because I reject your interpretations of these scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Assuming that is the case, what is the logic in him needing to end the sacrifices 3.5 years later? That helps the AC accomplish excactly what goal? That it was a bad idea to begin with, this resuming of animal sacrificing, so the AC then has a change of heart and then causes the sacrifices to cease? Therefore, this act by the AC then being an act pleasing to God since the AC caused a bad idea to go away altogether, this animal sacrificing in a rebuilt temple?

David, we have to put things in the proper order. After the person becomes the King of Israel messiah, and after the temple rebuilt, and after animals sacrifices started again - Satan convinces him that he can achieve God-hood.

Stopping the daily sacrifice will be part of that person's rebellion against God, in believing Satan's lie.

In Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Now let's go over Ezekiel 28:1-10. 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

See that in red? 2Thessalonians2:4, when he goes in and sits in temple of God....

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[5thKingdom]

The only "theory" existing in your above post is the one you marked (1).

In my opinion your imagination has run wild with you, and so now you believe that this misinterpretation of yours is "fact".

@5thKingdom AND on top of this, you keep falsely accusing whoever disagrees with you of "rejecting scripture".

@5thKingdom Your other fallacy is to believe and claim that you have this "hidden knowledge" regarding the four "kingdoms of heaven" (I'm not even sure if you have the four beasts confused with the one and only Kingdom of Heaven because your posts about this are all over the place).

@5thKingdom 3rd and last time this post is edited to add to it: So I'll stick with what I've already said in Post #126 about why Daniel's forth beast refers to two 'antichrist' figures - A4E (IV-A) and the man of sin (IV-B). The first being the type of the second. Too bad that because you can't see it, according to you I'm "rejecting scripture" just because I reject your interpretations of these scriptures.

Sir, you only PROVE the accuracy of Dan 12:8-10

The BIBLE promises something in that passage and you FULFILL that promise.
It is really as simple as that.

Secondly, I notice you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED the Scripture I provided
showing the first 3 Beasts are NOT the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires.
That is an OLD INTERPRETATION that Scripture (Dan 12:8-10) PROMISES is wrong.

Your interpretation
(1) Must be wrong because it's old
(2) Does not harmonize with Dan 7:11-12

I realize it sucks to learn your "gospel" is clearly contradicted by Scripture.
But intentionally ignoring the harmony of Scripture does not make your error valid.

.

 

[Zao is life]

Sir, you only PROVE the accuracy of Dan 12:8-10

The BIBLE promises something in that passage and you FULFILL that promise.
It is really as simple as that.

Secondly, I notice you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED the Scripture I provided
showing the first 3 Beasts are NOT the Babylonian, Persian and Greek empires.
That is an OLD INTERPRETATION that Scripture (Dan 12:8-10) PROMISES is wrong.

Your interpretation
(1) Must be wrong because it's old
(2) Does not harmonize with Dan 7:11-12

I realize it sucks to learn your "gospel" is clearly contradicted by Scripture.
But intentionally ignoring the harmony of Scripture does not make your error valid.

.

Well your re-interpretation of Daniel 7 disagrees with what Daniel 7 says about the four beasts being four kings who would arise out of the earth, mo matter how many words you use to assert that your "hidden knowledge" regarding these things is hidden from the rest of us.

Your assertions in effect place myself and all those who don't believe 5thkingdom's re-interpretations of the scriptures, as being among the wicked, and you being among the wise, because Daniel says,

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Well there will be false prophets and false teachers who no doubt will hurl the same false accusations against the wise saints, who do not follow them, that you hurl against those who disagree with what you imagine Daniel 7 and 12 are talking about.

 

[JulieB67]

have provided you with several SCRIPTURES clearly stating the first resurrection is when we are "born again"

Born again means born from above (anothen)

As for Revelation, are you not reading Christ's own words?? There are two resurrections after he returns.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

are you aware it teaches about TWO separate and distinct "Beasts"?

I showed you scripture where the beast described in 19 is the very same as 20.


Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There's no denying that this is the same beast that was worshipped and his image. We know at Christ's return this entity is thrown into the LOF. If you want to deny plain scripture so be it.

You respond with showing spiritual language

I am posting actual scripture of Christ's Revelation.

The context is NOT that we experience some "Golden Era" of Christianity RULING the world..
you ADDED that part from your immagination.

No, I simply know what the Greek defintion for the word reign is-

Basileuo-to rule-king, reign. Derived from basileus, through the notion of a foundation of power- soverign -king.

If you want to spin that into something else fine. But the definiton stands on it's own.

 

[DavidPT]

Born again means born from above (anothen)

As for Revelation, are you not reading Christ's own words?? There are two resurrections after he returns.

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."



I showed you scripture where the beast described in 19 is the very same as 20.


Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There's no denying that this is the same beast that was worshipped and his image. We know at Christ's return this entity is thrown into the LOF. If you want to deny plain scripture so be it.



I am posting actual scripture of Christ's Revelation.

No, I simply know what the Greek defintion for the word reign is-

Basileuo-to rule-king, reign. Derived from basileus, through the notion of a foundation of power- soverign -king.

If you want to spin that into something else fine. But the definiton stands on it's own.

To add to your post. It's real simple, not rocket science, that until one beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast fulfills what is recorded in Revelation 13:14--- that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live---there is no image to worship or refuse to worship in the meantime. And that Revelation 20:4 indicates those particular saints were martyred because they refused to worship his image.

Does Scripture interpret Scripture or not? If nothing in Revelation 13 explains the martyrdom in Revelation 20:4, especially in regard to not worshiping his image, then where are the Scriptures that do? If I could just see those Scriptures that tell us there is already an image to the beast before that of Revelation 13:14 being fulfilled, I might be more open to Amil's position on this. I won't hold my breath waiting to see those Scriptures though, since I doubt anyone can produce something that doesn't even exist.

The following, as far as I can tell, are all the passages in the book of Revelation that specifically mention this image.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image , and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image , and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him , with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image . These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is crystal clear, what I have underlined in Revelation 20:4 is undeniably involving the same era of time all of those other verses I submitted are, but meaning when they are initially martyred though, and not meaning when they live and reign with Christ a thousand years. That is meaning after they had been martyred, and for certain isn't meaning reigning with Him in heaven in a disembodied state. All of this is plainly obvious. How can anyone possibly miss something plainly obvious like this is? I guess it could be worse, though. What if we were all convinced of Amil?

 

[JulieB67]

there is no image to worship or refuse to worship in the meantime.

True!

If nothing in Revelation 13 explains the martyrdom in Revelation 20:4, especially in regard to not worshiping his image, then where are the Scriptures that do

Exactly. It's very clear they are describing the same thing.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

This also coincides with this,

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a like of fire burning with brimstone."

 

[parousia70]

You have TWO problems with your "interpretation"... and both are CRITICAL problems that DESTROY you theory.


(1) The FIRST problem is the Bible PROMISES the truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast would remain
"closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End".


That means that EVERY "interpretation" of Daniel's Beasts made BEFORE the "Time-of-the-End" MUST BE WRONG
because it was developed when the Bible PROMISED the Truth was "closed-up" and "sealed"

Well, the apostles all claimed the end time had arrived in their day, so, sure, EVERY interpretation given BEFORE the 1st century must be wrong.
I agree.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well your re-interpretation of Daniel 7 disagrees with what Daniel 7 says about the four beasts being four kings who would arise out of the earth, mo matter how many words you use to assert that your "hidden knowledge" regarding these things is hidden from the rest of us.

First I did not provide any "re-interpretation"
That is you pretending.


Secondly, you do not understand about the four "Kings"... which are also shown as four "Horns".
These are found on Daniel 7 AND Revelation 17. They represent the Last "wheat and tares"
which are "harvested" OUT of the Third Beast and INTO the Fourth Beast. These people
are called "Ten Virgins" in Matthew 25:1-13 (a brief chronology of the Fourth Beast)


The Last Saints are PART of the Ten "Kings/Horns/Virgins"...
in Matthew 25 the Last Saints are called the "Wise Virgins" while the last "tares" are called "Foolish Virgins"
This is called "harmony of Scripture"... that is how you know it's Truth... it cannot be REFUTED from Scripture
it can only be DENIED based on personal "feelings"... as you are doing now.
But we know personal "feelings" mean LESS than nothing.


Third, the text EXPLAINS WHAT each of the four "Beasts" represent... they represent "Kingdoms"


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The Fourth Beast shall be the Fourth Kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse
from all [the other three] Kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


Finally... you embarrass yourself when you pretend Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10 DOES NOT reveal the Last Saints
"shall understand" Biblical mysteries that remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous Saints.
In fact the Bible PROMISES that knowledge (about the Gospel) "shall be increased"
to the Last Saints...


I hope you do not pretend the knowledge that "shall be increased" represents some SECULAR knowledge.
That does not even pass the "giggle test"


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME-OF-THE-END:
many [Last Saints] shall run to and fro, and knowledge [about the Gospel] SHALL BE INCREASED.


If you have a problem with "hidden knowledge" being revealed to the Last Saints at the "Time-of-the-End"
then you are REJECTING the Word of God (not my words)

Your assertions in effect place myself and all those who don't believe 5thkingdom's re-interpretations of the scriptures, as being among the wicked, and you being among the wise, because Daniel says,

You understand what the Bible says:
ONLY the Last Saints "shall understand" the mysteries that were "closed-up" and "sealed"
But remember... those are NOT MY WORDS... those are the Word of God.
I am sorry if you REJECT the Word of God.


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME-OF-THE-END.
Many [Last Saints] shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise [Last Saints] SHALL UNDERSTAND.


You can pretend the Bible does not PROMISE knowledge "shall be increased"... but you are wrong.
And you can pretend the Bible does not PROMISE the Last Saints "shall understand" Biblical mysteries... but you are wrong.


You continue to DENY what the Bible clearly teaches... but you cannot REFUTE anything I said from Scripture.
So do not pretend your DENIALS mean anything (they do not), the only thing that matters is whether you can
REFUTE my words with Scripture... and you cannot. That is the Bottom Line Sir.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well, the apostles all claimed the end time had arrived in their day, so, sure, EVERY interpretation given BEFORE the 1st century must be wrong.
I agree.

We are NOT talking about the "end-times".
You are deflecting - although I do not think it's intentional.
It is done from ignorance instead of malice. Everything after the Cross
is considered the "end-times".


We are talking about the period called the "Time-of-the-End".
Please provide ONE VERSE of Scripture (not your "feelings") that teaches the people
living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom were living at the "Time-of-the-End",
... aka, the time of the Great Tribulation Saints.


You cannot find such Scripture because it does not exist.


The Bible teaches there is a Jewish "Beast" and a Christian "Beast" and a Great Tribulation "Beast"
you want to CONFLAT the Third Beast on earth (the Great Commission of the Church Age)
with the Fourth Beast on earth (the Great Tribulation Beast)


But let me ask you ONE question:
Do you understand the FOURTH BEAST is also shown as

(1) the Revelation Beast
(2) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
(4) during Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being released from the Bottomless Pit


Do you understand these BASIC FACTS?
If not... how can you expect to offer an "informed opinion" on these matters?
Seriously... this is a sincere question.


Jim

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

Well, the apostles all claimed the end time had arrived in their day, so, sure, EVERY interpretation given BEFORE the 1st century must be wrong.
I agree.

So what is left to be fulfilled in the future if it all happened in AD70? Are we stuck with this madness for eternity?

 

[5thKingdom]

parousia70 said:
Well, the apostles all claimed the end time had arrived in their day, so, sure, EVERY interpretation given
BEFORE the 1st century must be wrong. I agree.

So what is left to be fulfilled in the future if it all happened in AD70? Are we stuck with this madness for eternity?

That is so funny.
You pretend the "end time"... which is called the "End of the Age" in Mat 28,
is the same as the "Time-of-the-End" in Dan 12
You are only pretending.


One is the THIRD BEAST on earth...
the other is the FOURTH BEAST.


The chronology of the History of Man is simple:
After the Pre-Flood Kingdom there was a (2nd) Jewish Kingdom
After the Jewish Kingdom there was a (3rd) Christian Kingdom which continued
until the Great Commission was completed at the "End of the Age" and the Last Saint
had been "sealed" (saved)... then (and only then) could the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom begin


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


And the FOURTH BEAST is shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast
and (3) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] and (4) the RULE of the Anti-Christ
during (5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being released from the Pit


To understand the chronology of the History of Man
you FIRST must understand the DIFFENCE between each "Beast" on earth.


/

 

[parousia70]

So what is left to be fulfilled in the future if it all happened in AD70? Are we stuck with this madness for eternity?

Well, isn't the goal that everyone Love God with all their heart and love their neighbor as themselves?
Isn't that the point of Jesus' command to "Make disciples of all nations"?

Do we simply shrug off that command and irrelevant, unnecessary and not a requirement that we fulfill it?